jrav

Yes, the roller screw is not the problem for the reason you describe. As long as it's clean and slick, it is always seated properly by the screw. It's the "other" screw we bemoan here, and they differ by reel in terms of exactly what tight is. Below is an older model Symetre and the screw in both open and closed positions. This kind seats dead on, never has over tightening or frictional problems with full bail closure. Darn good design and solid, though a bit of a task to work with given the inside position. The newer design in open and closed position with the stationary screw head on the outside. I think this causes some of the friction problems with full closure of bail. Though seatable in theory, if a bit too tight you get friction problems on some of the reels. Shouldn't be, but it functions like that sometimes hence my treating it as "adjustable" though not entirely sure about Shimano's opinion of it. I think it's largely due to the stationary screw head on the outside part. The tolerances are looser on the arm assembly, but that little head creates a lot more friction than one would think when "properly" seated. Don't get me wrong, I love the features of the newer Symetres, just hate the design of that one part. Some are worse than others there, but one should be able to tighten fully without undue friction problems. The older reels had the right design and very reliable closure with tight screws. Quick and cheaper to make now, but not necessarily better.

Yeah...and I think the only reason I don't have issue with bail arm hang-up/grooving or even the roller grooving is largely due to my lifelong habit of hand closing the bail. It's a quick move in which I close bail and pull the line into the roller, as natural as breathing anymore. If I handle clicked it, I'd think they all sucked by design. Something I noticed when playing with a few of my reels last night, especially the most used ones. Rayburnguy, I think the reason some of us get the years out of a reel is indeed maintenance, but it's also developing habits to circumvent the design flaws as mentioned above. Kinda strange, really...by not using the reel in the way intended it lasts longer. Hand closure appears to be one of those habits and it's true benefits shine in cold weather and chilly lube.

Kinda wondered that all along, but it doesn't look to terribly bad for line cutting. As for the bail grooves, you might have a bent bail given the incident with the reel. Even when it does seat, it can still be pretty off for line transfer to roller. Either one of these will groove if misaligned.

Good pics! It always helps to see this stuff. My Shimanos are a bit different and it was a little perplexing at first, but I flipped your pics and here's what I got. You have to insert the pin, then turn further to seat the stop block. Doesn't look too worn, the stuff in the third pic is odd looking but that's where it seats when open. Grungy, but looks OK structurally for it's purpose. Now, those parts marked should really be clean and slick, thus I echo Vodka's sentiments on the whole assembly looking rather needy of lube. Roller especially. If not, they'll malfunction as stated and shift the line over the roller track. Another thing I realized about my own reels is if the assembly screw is overtightened even a smidgen, the bail won't close to full stop. Looks good, but it still has a tiny bit to go and that would change the line path over the roller, right about where your grooving is. Careful with that screw, it's a "thread friction" setter and not a head setter. IOW, you can back it off a bit to set proper (less) friction. If the rig is dirty, it's much the same as an overtightened screw...won't close fully under spring tension. That might have been why the roller grooved, the bail assembly couldn't close fully and align properly with the grime. Doesn't take much to do it, in order to notice I had to push the bail to check for remaining travel. Never realized it, but my Symetre from the mid-90's looks similar to yours with 1 tension pin/spring. The newer models have 2 tension springs, I'm guessing partially to avoid the problem we are discussing while making a smoother bail operation. I learned something about my own stuff here. Regarding the "Jonah in the Belly of a Whale" aspect of the whole situation, I'd say this reel is to be retired on a wall much like a trophy catch. Good story to it and worthy of display.

Y'know, Fatman...you got some really nice results! Those crappie thread pics are impressive, I noticed you use a pretty good dose of the Kool-Aid (4 packs). I likely would have been more impressed had I done the same, one pack certainly is a bit weak even for a small batch. Good point on price and results, given the color strength and amount needed it makes the specialty dyes seem not so expensive in the long run.

Just out of curiosity, I dug out an elder Shimano and took some pics of the roller/bail. More or less a given on you getting a new reel, but if we can figure out the likely cause of the grooving, it may save the next reel from such a fate. Could help others as well, the groove thing is not unheard of. Below is the first place I'd check, to see it the arm assembly is solid under tension. Sometimes screws loosen and allow play, it's a simple fix to avert damage. Next is a close-up of the roller housing The other side... The roller and bushing itself... Pretty cheesy plastic parts on even the Symmetries, doesn't take much grit and running fish to grind away enough material to upset the alignment. If you get curious, pull those parts and examine them to see if that's where the problem is on your reel. I never have a problem with grooving, but I cut my big fish teeth in sand country and am rather anal about keeping things lubed and clean. The roller should roll, if it doesn't, it'll groove. Assuming the rotor itself doesn't have much play or wear, if so that will shift the whole upper assembly under tension.

New reel is the easiest fix and probably the longest lasting solution. The reel pictured is well worn and beaten, the bail arm/roller is likely shifting a bit while under tension and causing the change line position. Grinding properly would be rather difficult and would remove any slick finish to the metal if it exists. The actual wear might be somewhat due to the spring tension or even partially on the reel body where the roller assembly attaches. Hard to tell without disassembly. They don't last forever, man. If you're going to try, take off the screw to the bail assembly (near roller) and see if that is bent a bit allowing the tilt in roller. The gray plastic part which it fits into might be worn a bit on the top part (inside) which misaligns the roller. You won't regrind this part, it's a new reel solution. If it is simply a small washer or roller bushing replacement here, maybe you can do it. As for the spouse, ask her is she ever actually wore out a pair of shoes before needing more. Icy stare on the way, but it's one heck of a justification!

http://www.veniard.com/section138/dyes-and-venpol Might want to give these guys a shot, they have specific degreasers for feathers as well. More important than one might think, get that part right and you'll likely see the full benefits of the colorant. If the dye says anything about vinegar, it's an acid setting dye (even RIT). However, that doesn't mean you get the vibrant colors that last, you gotta pay a bit more on the specialty market for such products. It's in the product and not all acid dyes are going to be alike. Never used Veniard myself, they are one of the swear-bys for the serious tyers and dyers. I kinda dig the muted natty colors, hence my use of strange and cheap colorants. It's a messy and time consuming job, by the best and make it worth the effort. Long string across the room, clothes pins or small clips, you'll know what I mean when you have a lot of wet feathers. Flat drying is enticing until there's wind or a fan gets turned on, don't go there. You can "stem" bigger feathers in a foam sheet by just poking a bunch of holes for drying, hit The Depot or other big box home store for a sheet of whatever looks suitable. Round pool toys/floaties work if you hang them vertically and treat them as a drying post with 360 degree feathers. Looks cool, too

I'll echo rhahn427's recommendation to go with something specifically designed for feathers and most importantly fishing use. A lot of dyed feathers in craft stores are not waterfast and will fade, some of the dyes they sell will as well. Look into anything Salmon Fly Tying related and you'll find the best (usually more expensive) dyes for the bright colors you're after. For natural, tea and coffee work pretty well, RIT is alright but the finished color is kinda muted and weak with feathers. Not very impressive once off the natural color ideas on proteins. For synthetics like streamer fibers and poly rope, RIT does just fine even without the dash of vinegar crap recommended for setting. Doesn't even need to be boiling hot, just let the materials sit for a bit in reasonably hot water w/dash of dye and rinse. Hot RIT on proteins and natural material? Kinda fluffy, kinda weird, not worth the bargain to me. Chamois being an exception, but I use full strength RIT and soak cold for hours to avoid "heat curl" on the hide. Works exceptionally well for trailers and the color holds in leather, just paint it on and let it absorb, rinse well.

Yep. Reason I didn’t mention it is because there are so many types and some work, some don’t around water. I’ve even used a product called plumbing repair tape which is a non-adhesive stretch tape that bonds to itself. A quick change on the water? Take a flytying bobbin with you and do a quick wrap and tape. Doesn’t need to be neat or complete, simply sneak the tag end under the guide foot and tie off without need for whips or nice finish moves. On a multi-piece blank the short sections allow one to reach any guide (especially the butt guides) for bobbin use. Face it, you’re a fisherman and casting experiments on the water usually lead to fish catching experiments, hence temporary but secure guide wraps. A quick 10 wraps of thread helps here before taping and is actually easier in the long run for getting things lined-up correctly. Tape alone wanders and wiggles even when tight, annoyingly hard to tape little guide feet securely without a bit of thread first. I didn’t realize it at the time, but if you’ve never built a rod before you might not know of spacing charts and methods. Readily available charts and they all look quite similar for most flyblanks. A good starter layout and gives an idea of how guides are typically or progressively spaced. This is good to see others exploring this idea and it’ll be interesting to know how the microwave system and mono works outside of shorter rods and bass lures. Even if the 5 wt isn’t ideal for your immediate needs, I’d keep the build and tweak it over time. These types of rods tend to find some great uses and applications even if the initial species intent/use doesn’t work as well as dreamed. If you ever jump from this weight, jump by 2-3 line weights up or down as flyrods typically change in small increments relative other tackle. A 5 and 6 are usually pretty close in many ways for spinning purposes, the fiver will probably serve you fine. This is shaping-up to be a very fun rod for smaller carp, you're gonna love the lightness in hand when catching smaller fish as much or more than the casting attributes.

I can’t tell you much about the Bloke/Toray blanks and they really don’t give all that much info on any sites, but it’s a nice price and would probably be a fine way to explore this idea. I’d go for the 6wt option and no lower for a carp rod, better for the larger fish and you know how small bait carping goes, there’s always a big one in there somewhere. My guide placement and number is based primarily on a standard chart for starters and then altered if needed to suit the blank/build. Don’t like overloading a blank with guides and on these long blanks it doesn’t seem necessary. Distance from the reel to butt is always based on the load when fighting a fish for me, very different from others in this regard who have other points of view. I use braid exclusively, it’s near no memory and goes where it’s told very well. With mono, you’ve got memory and this strongly influences guide strategy and placement, especially coming off the reel and into the guides. The way I do things is really only practical with braid and I don't use mono anymore. The Microwave idea may work well, some say it is only of marginal benefit, I’ve never tried it. If using mono, talk to them and give it a shot. The guides will be larger and likely heavier, but probably not by much overall. Don’t be afraid to “dry wrap” some guides (especially butt guides) and do some fishing to see how they perform. You may find a few experiments are better than any formula for getting it right, especially with regard to spacing on a 4-piece rod. Sometimes I adjust the overall spacing a bit to clear the ferrules without odd varience and it works fine. Remember…it’s an exact science until you ask 5 more people, then you have 5 more ways that are right! There’s some freedom on this stuff. Best thing to do is to buy a few more smaller guides than you think is needed, and a few different styles of butt guide for the transition and play around on the water with them for a while. Yeah, it would be nice to have an exact idea, but these builds are mostly uncharted territory in a lot of ways and we are pushing it forward a bit. The lines and reels differ as well, build for what you are using by experimentation on your blank. Most importantly, don’t get attached to any particular spacing or theory in general until you do a mark-up on the layout. Take a strip of wide masking tape, about 30” long and stick it to a table top or similar. Now, if 2” equals 1’ (or metric if preferred) you can do a quick sketch-up picture on the build right there. Mark the ferrule junctions FIRST, then the proposed spacing arrangements…see what I mean? All guide spacing theories execute perfectly on 1 piece blanks, not so tough on 2 piece builds, either. Get into 3-4 piece builds and you can see how ferrules and guides can end up in the same locations or too near one another. That’s the reality with multi-piece builds for guide placement and it’s quite a puzzle sometimes, you’ll likely diverge a bit from any initial idea based on this factor. Rarely spoken of, yet I’d wager it influences a lot more guide spacing than many would care to admit. Theory v/s Practice in Reality.

Hope it's going well, Dave...long and light blanks are pricey, ain’t they? Try Pacific Bay Rainforest II series or similar by PacBay, they have some 10’ rods in 3 piece that are more reasonable than most. An 11’ blank is going to get a bit nasty in price and are usually a good bit heavier. Most important thing to realize with freelining is that any rod blank which will load “properly” with light baits such as a dog food niblet or a few kernels of corn…is not going to unload with much energy or zing when released for the cast. It’s easy come, easy go. This is largely why I don’t worry so much about the tips being extra flexible or light when casting extremely light baits, it simply doesn’t add much to the overall casting distance. This is also why I inquired about the “sloppy” thing mentioned elsewhere about various rods. Go too light on the tip, you’ll get end-of-cast waggle even with blanks that have great damping. Doesn’t matter as much when launching a 1/4 oz lure or weight, but against the slight momentum of a light offering in flight, tip waggle will rob you of distance. Doesn’t take much waggle or residual bounce to do it and tips that load at such light weights tend to go wild on you at the end of a cast stroke. Think “acceleration during the casting stroke (long/light blank)” and “good damping at the end of stroke” and you’ll get where you’re trying to go while still having the power to deal with carp. Popular rodbuilding theory doesn’t really address casting such light baits at distance to such large fish outside of flyfishing. It’s the path less traveled with spinning builds and the directions can seem strange, but it works well. Waggle is the enemy, do not interfere with the flight once released and it'll fly further.

PowerPro has a pretty good standard and metric list of attributes, just google PowerPro specs and it usually pops up. The 2/10 is .006” or 0.13 mm where in USA the 2/10 designation means “2lb test diameter and 10 lb breaking strength”. The whole mono diameter thing they use is more advertising and rather dubious as monos (and any line) differ significantly in diameters from brand to brand. Hence, I disregard the mono-equivalent BS. With slightly larger guides than I use, you probably will see an increase in distance, I just didn’t need them for most of my fishing. My rods get built and altered several times over the years and are always a work in progress, the ideal butt guides would be low frame and slightly larger rings. The fat cork handle was a quick whip-up experiment with mediocre rings that worked well enough to stay on to his day. Certainly could be done with a number of materials and styles to suit one. Fat or skinny reelseats? How’s the weather? You get the idea, I like the skinny reel seats for winter carping in creeks with gloves on. Fatties are a summer grip. The ambiguities of flyrod action? Well, they are all kinda moderate and I like to go for something vaguely described as mod-fast or fast in the 7-8wt range for carp. For one, a 4lber is plenty of fun on an 8wt and the rod will protect a 6-10lb fluoro leader pretty well on rolling fish, even at higher weights these blanks are not all that stiff and unyielding. If you’re always going light on lines, say 4-6lb, a 6wt might be a better idea but either will likely work at the length you are looking at. My reason for liking the 8wt in mod-fast is the power and flex characteristics it leaves in the butt when playing fish. When a big carp gets in close and stays stubborn, I’ll put the rod lateral and to the side to change pull angles and it makes most carp do a turn around. Once they turn, switch hands and opposite angles of pressure, they turn again only this time they are a little closer. Essentially, I flip-flop and topple them in for landing by virtue of confusion and disorientation. A direct tug’o’war in the last phase of the fight goes on forever, the switch angle ploy with longer rods defeats them by disorientation in a fraction of the time and provides nice energetic releases. Yes, I do extend arms out when doing this for max angle change and the ergonomic flat-top butt was born of this tactic. No sore spots on arm after a long day, wrists feels great. The faster actions hold more butt stiffness and work better as a longer lever (side reach) under load for this. Soft, overly moderate actions tend to bend too deeply and shorten the overall side-to-side length for effective angle changes. Faster is a slightly better tool for this ploy, thus my rejection of most soft-butt steelhead rods. A strange trick with large carp, but it works incredibly well to conclude the sulking part of the fight. Trickery trumps the stubborn spirit, With a 10-11’ blank, I think you could do quite well in any action designation simply due to the overall length and would leave it openminded to even the more moderate actions. Even if you put the handle up further, you still have awesome length to use on the fish.

OK, disregard the backyard sunflower pic above, it just happened to be on the screen and I needed a test photo fast (I like backyard birds). Here's a couple rods side by side with a tape measure (click on photo for larger size) Bottom one is actually a coated cork handle with better diameter for larger fish and a flattop butt. It's a tape-on, cleans easy and doesn't dig into the hand. Next pic is the position of flat-top butt and why I like it for landings or side running bank fish. Self explanatory for carping. Odd pic in the mirror below, but it shows the shape of the butt a bit better from two angles. Overhead shot of the two pieces of the 9' 8wt rig for relative guide size on blank. I keep guides small, step them down fast, and finalize position based on the behavior of the rod while fighting the fish. Sometimes I alter the position butt guide if the blank bends deeply and puts the line at an odd angle to the reel. Hence the low, small guide...it keeps the line path where I like under load. Yeah, they are a lot different than some of what folks consider proper carp rods, but I fish with rod in hand most of the time. Light, strong, and easier to work with for many species. To reiterate, I use only light braid on these rigs and have not tried it with mono. Don't think mono would work near as well for casting.

Dave, it's Joe from the RB thread and I'll try to get some pics on this thread in the near future with regard to handles. Tom's site has a gallery section, but I'm more familiar with this format for uploading on a laptop. Took a look at some of your stuff on some UK forums and the build styles they use, it's definitely a different kind of carp rod were speaking of on this. My handles are quite short compared to what you have in the pics, may take me a bit but I'll get them up here.

As a regular visitor but rare login, I feel compelled to give credit where credit is due to anyone who runs a site like this. Especially when it deals with the explorative craft side of angling which has got to be a tough venture. Whether we call it the fringe or the cutting edge, I doubt it's ever dull from the admin side of the screen. That said, THANKS redg8r! Both for continuing the home and resource when Eric's site was flickering out way back then and for the trip down memory lane up in post #65. Your decision here has got to be the toughest kind to make, but then the right decisions usually are nothing less than that. The quote above pretty much sums it all up and you're the only expert on these matters. Sounds like you're handing it over with the same great work ethic and practicality you started the site with, it's as much as anyone could hope for. Good man. Welcome LPO and best of luck with the future. Though the idea of such ownership may spook some, there may well be a synergy that comes from a supplier in this case. Sometimes new ideas come from new parts or vice versa and most new ideas, however unflattering it may seem to some, are derivative in some fashion from other notions. Thus no worries about "idea stealing" or pimping need be had, one argue it's actually the lifeblood of the craft in some subtle ways. Perhaps the life blood of innovation in general.

It's a CA glue like Jim said, I use it myself and love it for jig/flytying. Now this may not apply in recent times, but years ago I was told by the owner of a hobby shop that most CA glue is made by very few companies. So much of what's on the market is branded differently, yet has a common source which uses different formulas (consistency, dry time, etc). Reason given was that one or two companies can pretty much produce all that is needed for market demand. Never had a bad batch and it all works very well regardless of labeling, the Loctite seems to have the best cap/bottle and comes in various sizes for cheap that don't dry out when used occasionally. I get mine (Loctite brand) at Walmart and have yet to have the tip clog or cap stick, it's a good design. The little pink capped bottle of different branding form Hobby Lobby required pliers to get open after some use and the tip clogged horribly. Guess the glue is all the same, the choice is in the bottle here! Betting the accelerator would probably work with any other brand, but don't take that as an absolute.

The hollow brass tubes used for coring foam in popper making do a fine job of this as well. Press and turn or rock them slightly to dig in a bit and it makes a nice little gouge for gills. I even use these to "cheat" little eye circles, heck if I can make a good paint circle. I like to score the outline for stuff THEN go at it with the paint, sometimes just a dab & wipe will fill the gouges nicely for starters.

Was playing around with some smaller PVC blanks I had done recently and got tired of trying to sand them to a reasonably consistent surface texture. For the heck of it, I took the plug and rubbed it vigorously against a short napped rug that my plants are on...nice surprise! Completely smoothed the surface to almost glass-like with just a few strokes, I suspect from the modest amount of heat/friction created by stroping on the rug. Been playing around with this idea over the weekend and found that wooden dowels and just about anything capable of exerting light force and frictional heat will accomplish the same end without dust and raw fingers. Very cool shortcut, especially on the little stuff when pressed into a rug for head work/smoothing. Dowels and flat wood, rubbed with light force are not bad for very fine shaping as in rounding a belly or getting a darter head just right. Some of this might be from compression of expanded foam as well, but then the sintra factsheet mentions malability at somewhere around the 150 degree/F mark on thin sheets. Not hard to hit on bare denim for a surface sheen. Rough-cut end of the sanding block has it place here for less dust as well, but it's a rougher finish. Not quite sure on the surface adhesion of epoxies when smoothed like this, it may indeed require a bit of roughing to maximize it. Certainly does serve well as an intermediate step though, eyeballing a smooth reflective surface for bilateral symetry makes inconsistencies jump out as opposed to the looking at rough sanded surfaces. Takes about 20 seconds on a cheap rug. Any of you folks noticing quirks like this with the expanded foams?

Thanks for the insight, Vodkaman, and we'll likely see a few future threads on higher density PVC's and others once experiments get going. Just lucky with gliders and dogwalks I guess...my first run, slob-jobs are behaving well with whatever I do them with be it light wood, oak dowel, or bouyant PVC. Bass caught, but that's stillwater bass. My big curiosity now is the river application and that begs for a bit more sinkabilty, especially with regard to typical smallmouth sizes I use. The oak dowel darters got the moves, but even with that heavier wood, the ballast doesn't sink it well and there's only so much room for even tungsten weights. The attactiveness of >1 extends a bit to structural integrity as well, the hardness and stiffness required for smaller lures is an asset. With the expanded foam I currently have, there's a limit to how little material I'm comfortable with for durabilty. Great for fattish lures, but just not the stuff for a narrower tail. Think sluggo or senko shaped hardbaits, you'll see what I mean. Couple that shape with ballasting issues and we got some mighty thin areas of material to rely on under stress. Expanded foam is not all that rigid and strong, at least on one piece lures. For kicks and to see the practicality of working with the hard. dense plastics the next project is with some cutting board material at around 8-10mm thick. Not PVC, but it'll hold a screw eye and no problem on structural integrity even when ballasting cavities are dremeled. If it's tolerable, I'll take a shot at the some of the stuff Goonsdad is playin' with, perhaps even start a thread with some pictures if I get a camera. Rather cool twist, this >1 thing, kinda opens up material possibilties that I never thought of as useful. Once again, roaming about the dwelling looking for new things to hack a lure out of:eek:

Well, Husky, how did I not see that one? Probably the easiest way to get product directly from the source:lol: Sorted through a plethora of links and storefronts like this one... Sintra PVC 13 mm Kinda cringed at the price on pieces, but the aforementioned "math thing" once done, makes it pretty reasonable in terms of dollars and cents. Might be easier on shipping to get the deal of 10 sheets in smaller sizes, the price of the big ones get pretty nasty in large packs and is way too much material. Ironically, I'm in Lafayette, IN and saw some distributers in the phone book. We'll see if they are willing to sell to or sample me kindly. I think Hildebrant or similar is/was actually out here for a while, but they come across as bogarts on the issue of selling to non-company entities. Walking distance from a tackle manufacturer, but ya gotta buy from someone 50 miles away! Oh well. By the info on the sintra, the ambiguous white trim piece from Home Depot MAY be the same material in different form. Cannot find info on just what it is or who actually makes it, it's not even on the website. Cool if it is, it's 5/8" X 5/8", but would be nice to have the same in the 8mm-13mm for smaller baits without all the wasteful removal of material. I'll give the locals a shot, maybe even a few sintra letters are availible as it is one of the uses of the material. Like to get a piece for comparison and experiment, shouldn't be too tough here despite local fascination with neon advertising. Thanks, guys:yay:

Out of curiosity here, what is your experience with regard to action and densities >1? All I've ever done in this area is with material that has densities of <1, so I can only guess what a sinker would do. Now bizarre hybrid lures and various darting flies/jigs work pretty well at sinker densities (all material) for me, but shape plays a big role here. Good note there, Mark, I didn't see that and assumed that the PVC was a floating variety. Has anyone ever built plugs with all material that is actually heavier than water? Recall a few oak threads and heavy woods that had lame glider or crankbait action, but those are a bit different principles to chase there. Occurs to me that a "plug material" of such density lends itself more to spoon or spoonplug type principles, but that's just speculation. IOW, and ironwood crank may suck and have diminished action (if any), but perhaps a body shape more reminiscent of spoons and chatters could behave differently? I do use a darter/dogwalk jig that I've made with everything from wool, epoxy, hotmelt, even soldered blades and the heavier material does intrigue me. Rather like some slopehead floaters, but the upsidedown reverse with a nicer walk, wobble fall, and a spoon swim on the steady retrieve. Proportion and balance is the puzzle, but I just may try it with some of these heavy PVC's is the price and availiblity is kind.

Nice info link there, Husky. I get the part about scrounging for scraps at local shops, but what if they aren't around? Has anyone found a decent price on this stuff for the purposes we use it for? I googled a bit and, like atrophius mentioned, the larger diameters seem pretty expensive! I like the idea of the 2cm thick board, but it'll have to be a lucky freebie at the prices I've seen. How the heck an this stuff possibly cost THAT much? It's friggin' PVC for cryin' out loud, slightly less common than water on the planet these days. Perhaps it's the thin sheets/consistant diameter part that make the Sintra rather pricy to crank-out, can't exactly tolerate a warpy, hard to read sign for advertising purposes. Looks like great stuff, though, especially that heat & shape part on the thinner sheets. Maybe a bit of local scrounging in town and factory for me, but I'm just borrowing it from the factory if it's there...like the popper foam:whistle:

Dunno, Goons...that might be worth more than Clicked the link to have a look, saw round...hex...gray...CLEAR?? Perhaps there is some real potential in this place, it'll be interesting to see what the actual PVC is like compared to some of what we are using. Seems it might be a little like closed cell foams (EVA popper heads) where everyones recipe and product is a bit different. I don't understand the techie jargon used to describe these things or how it relates to product characteristics. Feel free to describe here for folks like me when the goods arrive. Just finished epoxy coats on some glider/jerks made of PVC, these I decided to "etch" a scale pattern in the body with some old brass popper coring tubes. Washed with acrylics and wiped, it outlines the etching very nicely and has a 3D effect under the epoxy. A few deep ones, but nothing major against smoothness. Shoulda done gill plates with a bigger tube, definately next time, perhaps an inset eye and epoxy drop over it to see if it has a disappear effect on angled viewing. Or spots like that, the extreme bouyancy does open some doors to stupid experiments with less fear of killing the action or water absorbtion. Good material and easy to mod.

Your not a nit-picker, fatfingers, just a bit too darn slow on the response to be of use to my thread search:lol: I kid here, but it did take me forever to find the (latest) PVC thread 'cause I couldn't remember the poster name to search under. Could've tried the search box, maybe they like 3 letter words nowadays, at one time e-searches didn't work well with them. But thanks! I have an unlabled pic on my iPod that served as my shopping list, it was probably from the earlier discussions you allude to. Never did find the nice "trim board" in the pic, but the long white 5/8" stuff was a good find. Despite the growing popularity of PVC, it seems that everyone carries a different variety/style under various names. I recall earlier links and discussion and it gets pretty hard to tell exactly who made what Home Depot sells and who calls it what. I'll keep an eye out for the Sintra board, maybe it does exist in Lafayette, Indiana! I rarely bother to ask the store folks, they usually don't know what exists in the huge stores when it comes to odd things like this. Hence the pics on my iPod. Might be nice to see how the composites (PVC/wood) plays out for luremaking. Buddy brought me a piece of decking to play with, but it was kinda weathered and crappy looking from being outside for over a year so I politely declined. Did seem harder and heavier than the pure PVC, his board was from Menard's and was rather brownish. Subsurface? Maybe, it takes quite a bit of weight to sink the pure PVC and perhaps composites may be easier there. Might mill easier than the pure form as well, at least be less likely to pigtail and hang around. Looks like alot of ambiguous variety with this material in general, should be fun and interesting.