Vodkaman

Mr Bester, welcome to TU. I'm getting a touch of the de-ja-voux here (excuse my french, I don't have any). Question, what makes the lure wiggle? Answer, make some firewood and find out yourself?!!! Obviously paint recipes are a touchy no-go area of lure design, you only have to read the 'hard bait cookbook' to understand that, 2 pages and some chitchat in three and a half years! I think it is time to un-stick this sticky and let it slip away into obscurity, either that or start adding to it. I hope this thread slips away too. This is not the message we should be giving out. Merry Christmas to you all.

I would look through the gallery and get a feel for the various shapes. Choose a general shape that you like. Close the computer and sketch the shape on a piece of paper. Adjust it, adjust it some more, until it looks right. If it looks right then it probably is. Doing it this way, you can be satisfied that the shape is yours, there is no pleasure to be had from directly copying someone elses. Make a master and photocopy it. Use the copies and keep the master safe. If you want a computer drawn master, digitize your master and e-mail it to me, I would be glad to draw it out for you, or anyone else for that matter. It only takes a couple of minutes, same goes for lip sheets. I just read your post again, that is not what you asked, the offer stands anyway. Fish are shaped the way they are for a reason. If the tail end is too deep, there will be more resistance to side movement and you will end up with a log with no movement. Depth is OK around the ballast location and taper back to the nose. It's a force times distance thing. Start off with fish shapes, you can't go far wrong.

Bruce, a good response, I can live with that opinion, even agree. What I have a problem with is being told, "can't, it's too hard". Any solution is going to be an approximation or even statistically based. maybe using real feedback from testing prototypes and interpolating between cases. It will be a while before I consider tackling that one again, but I will, one day. I too studied the fishies from a dock. My problem was I very rarely caught anything. One day I asked a guy fishing next to me, with a net full, what was I doing wrong. He took a time out and came over to my swim, took one look at my gear and told me the line was too thick, the fish can see it. There was a pier there. So I dropped a handful of maggots in. They never reached the bottom. I then lowered my loaded hook with another handful. Same happened again, except my hook maggot was not touched. Life changing experience. From that day on I slayed them, using 2lb line max. Some days, when the fish were difficult, I would go down to 3/4lb line with No24 spade hook. So, when I joined TU and found that you used 10lb line I was horrified! But, fishing lures is a very different game to bait fishing. I now enjoy both. Glad I got to exercise your mind. Happy holidays to you all. Dave

Thanks Minuteman, yes, I read that doc, but could not find the oven reference. I think I'm just tired.

I could not find the part were it says ovens were bad, I am not doubting you, I only read it quickly. The article was interesting and informative. The recommended temperature was 120 deg F, in air fan driers. It also states that if the plaster is over dried, calcination occurs and the surface becomes powdery. I found that one out! If the drying process is too fast, cracking can occur, as the casting dries from the outside, in. As far as I can establish, apart from evaporating moisture, nothing else is going on. Everyone who uses PoP will probably agree that using an oven to dry the castings is not the ideal solution, but the alternative of waiting days for the thing to air dry does not fit in with my plans, I'm 51 and time is running out! So, I am going to accept the risks and continue with the oven. I am going to heed the new information and reduce the drying temperature by keeping the oven door ajar. Each oven is going to behave differently and a learning curve exists, a 'feel' for the drying times required comes with practise and experience. If you acquire a new oven, you've got to start over. But I could have a dozen attempts to get the result I want in the time it would take to air dry my mould. As long as you have a master, I really don't see the problem.

I get it now, the battery is a 7Ah (amp hours) rating. In that case the camera will not be drawing any where near 7 amps. A 0.5 or 1 amp fuse might be more appropriate. Usual disclaimer contract applies (kidding), good luck with it. Why not post some pics when you've had a chance to try it out.

Just to be sure, I would go along with Marks suggestion, but as long as the voltages match their should be no problem. The current is drawn by the circuit or device, not pushed in, so as long as the battery is capable of giving up 7 amps, you are OK. That is a lot of amps for a camera, has it got an electric outboard motor attached?

Basseducer, not sure, but I think they are hand made. I would PM directly to the owner of the stands that you like.

I hope you have all found this thread as interesting as I have. The results are surprisingly accurate and pretty much as expected, centre to right sided. Lure design is a very creative and artistically demanding process. The question remains, what the hell am I doing here? I hope more of you will take the test and publish your results.

Goldenshiner. That was one of the great threads, at least in my lowly opinion, but I would say that, I am left brained! I am in total agreement with you on all your points above. If people are not interested in the technical discussion, they should step aside and let those that are get on with it, everyone has a choice. I firmly believe that if you have nothing positive to say then say nothing. Yes, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration. But, as we are not trying to nail the solution to the milligram, I believe many of them can be side stepped and we should concentrte on the biggies, namely: lip geometry, eye location, ballast location and body shape. It is a daunting task to deal with even just these four at once, but it is possible to nail three and vary the fourth, in fact this is the standard procedure for prototype testing. You only change one thing at a time, otherwise you don't know which adjustment worked and you have to go back twice more to find out. Patience is the name of the game. When I joined TU, it was my intention to create a spreadsheet to do exactly as you stated. Enter your lures parameters and it will tell you the result. I tried for a while and will probably return to it some time in the future, but I am more of the opinion that it is sufficient to just understand how everything works, to design a new lure from scratch. Yes, the calculations are complex and require a fast computer, days to run a simulation. But I believe that an approximation is possible, like we said, we are only looking for a rough guide. But, before I could calculate anything, I had to find out exactly how everything works. This too has been a real trial. I feel that I am close to understanding the major principals, but not absolutely confident. Unfortunately, the learning curve has now kicked in. All the testing that I have done has given me an instinct for a lure, I can usually tell how it is going to behave in the water. But the whole point of this exercise was to help the newcommer to the addiction and try to minimise the learning curve. This is the part that dissjointed a few noses, "why should anyone get my hard earned knowledge on a plate"? Well, if anyone has that selfish opinion, then tough, because that is my intention, to put it on a plate, for new members and hopefully enough to enhance the knowledge of a few of the more experienced builders. As I work out little parts of the puzzle, I will continue to post them for debate. This process is a good way to test the theories, as all the theories should work together for every case, for all baits, hard, soft, lipped, lipless etc. Well enough soapbox. As for your reference to the size and speed. Very simple calculations are available for this one. Do a web search on Strouhal number. Top of the page will be wikapedia. This pretty much covers it in a nutshell. While you are there, look up vortex shedding and Karman vortex street. This covers all the lip theory. Having read these subjects, designing new lures is just a matter of interpretation and application of these principles. Anyone else have any ideas or theories? Publish or be damned I say, bring it on!

Bruce, You're right. Maybe it could receive temporary sticky status. I'm making the trip, wouldn't want to miss out on the opportunity to meet a few fellow TUists.

In addition to Bruces answer, to get down deep, you need a shovel on the front. If you put the tow eye behind, the lure will just roll over. By placing the eye just to the rear of the centre of the lip, a balance can be reached between the lip in front of the eye and the lip/body combo behind the eye. All this lip gives you action and, if the right position is found (by trial and testing) and all the other variables are set correctly, the lure will dive deep.

Nice sabre!

I have to agree with Bruce. The PM system is there to be used. Never had a negative word back regarding PM's from anyone. One or two did not reply, but that is OK. I've even had to create a folder to store the back-ups in, won't tell you how many! It saves a lot of the chit-chat clogging up some of the posts, although I have clogged a few recently myself, I'm doing it again, damn!

Not a straight slope. What does it matter anyway!

Theory tells me that it swims down in an arc, probably hyperbolic and then rises in a straight slope. So the max depth is only briefly achieved. I could be wrong but their is an explanation.

Even if you start the bait past 30', it will swim up to its own maximum depth.

If it does, we'll just have to adjourn to the pool table.

I live in rented accomodation. The landlord is a pain in the asss, I never use the oven so I have no problem using it as part of my chemistry set. The oven is a cheapo calor gas, piece of. The thermostat (HA!) is a twist knob with no markings. I look at the flame, it is either high or low, so I use low. I also open the patio door as there is no vent for it. I've been caught out by CO poisoning before. Regarding plaster, as far as I know and googled, there is only water comming out of the plaster, the chemical reaction has already finished. Even during the chemical reaction, it was harmless, except for the heat. I judge the time by picking it up every 30 mins. If it feels light, it's done. Usually works out about 90 mins. I find that if you over do it, the mould can get powdery and be a problem sealing if you use a brush. The brush disturbs the surface. If you are not sure and want to use a brush, use a very soft brush, landlords cat works well. Turn it over on its back and test it (the mould, not the cat). If it does wear the surface, use a different method, I splash a 50/50% PVA (elmers) water mix, without touching the surfaces and leave for 24 hours. Sorry, got carried away there!

Mags, of course your right, I didn't think that one through properly.

I've re-read my post and it reads like I am contradicting Mr Tater. Rooky is one of the most respected lure builders around. He has a large customer base, who come back for more. Read his Ebay feedback, it is second to none. If Tater Hog says it's so, that's good enough for me.

Rlcam, it's 16:30 here in Malaysia and I've started my three weeks holiday break. It's way too hot to venture outside, close to 90F. As for the eyes, I try not to close the hole with the top coat. If it does, I poke it in the eye with a sharp stick while it is still wet. Once the top coat is dry and you start messing about with it, you always run the risk of disturbing the seal and allow a path for the water to be sucked in. Before you fish the lure, it is warm. It's been in the trunk of your heated car. The sun is shining and all is well. But, the water is cold. The sudden chill contracts the air inside the wood and water will be drawn in through any breaches of the seal. I'm not saying that it is a bad idea to remove the dry excess, you just need to take care and be aware of the consequences of careless practices. Another good practise is to clean up the hanger wires with a solvent and maybe a piece of fresh scotchbrite before painting. Make sure that you do not touch them again with your fingers. While you are doing that, clean the faces of any clamps that you intend to use. The same goes for the whole body. Once the body is sealed, you should not touch it with bare fingers. Anal? maybe, but it only takes a minute or two.

Cotton Cordell little "O". Couldn't find a picture though.

I assume that you mean 60yds! Any tweaks are not going to get you much more depth. If you are getting 24ft, you should be well happy with that. Lure depth has been discussed a few times here on TU and I cannot remember anyone claiming much more than 20ft off a cast.

Wear protective glasses. Those wire wheels throw off wire shards. It WILL get you in the eye, it's just a matter of when.