bear21211

Honestly I doubt we will do that mold in a one piece mold. sorry.

No Sir that mold will not hand pour as the claws and legs will never fill.

BBK I did not get an e-mail but when you say open pour do you mean 1 or 2 piece mold?

LOL Jim I will let this rest. You in your own mind are far Superior to others. PM Sent Jim

You cant answer because there is no difference. Your Hand poured baits are no better than any other bait that is posted on these boards. Regardless what method people use to get the baits in the cavity the baits are the same. You have your opinion and the rest of us have ours. Ford Vs Chevy right? Face the fact there is no difference in the baits you make and the baits I make maybe you make them prettier. Maybe yours are clearer but fact remains they are all still hand created. PS it would really be nice to see something positive come from you . Lately all you have done is condemn peoples process, the clarity of our plastics the way the baits fish. Most of your post as of late is nothing more than you trying to promote your experience and others lack of. What is your goal Jim? You want to have a separate board for hand Injection? I do not understand what you are trying to accomplish. You say you are trying to keep the old school methods going? Maybe you should go back to true hand poured 1 sided molds. But then I guess your baits would not be as pretty as they are now. Where in the soft plastic handbook does it say the right way is Jim's way or Bear's way or for that matter where is the hand book? I for one enjoy using the injectors and think the baits they produce look and fish pretty durn good. Why cant we all just get along and enjoy the products and choices we have available? Man look at where this hobby, business has gone in the last few years. No body has forced you to change what you do and I do not think nobody has condemned the methods you use. Why not let people make there own choice on what they do or how they do it? Let them have a choice just as you do without them having to wade through all The BS post you make about which method is better or different? Man Grow up a bit!

Jim will all respect you are being totally ridiculous to the hand poured bait versus injected bait. I posted 2 pictures of the same bait you claim yours is hand poured I claim mine is hand poured. Can you tell me the difference in the 2 baits pictured? What is the big deal as to the process you use to get the plastic into the cavity of a 2 piece mold? You want to talk true hand pour break out the 1 piece molds. You get into 2 piece molds you have crossed a bridge in the type baits you make. My question to you is how is your bait pictured any more a hand pour than the one 1 pictured? How is your bait better or worth more money than mine? How does your bait make you better at making that bait than mine? This is all I am trying to understand. There is 2 baits out of the same type mold and you can claim yours is hand poured and I can not? Why?

Jim Is this what you would consider a hand poured bait? Now is this considered a hand poured bait?

Hawghunna I tried the 4 cavity with the 2 color Injector. It does not do a real good job on the 4 cavity mold. If the baits were on the same side of the sprue like the 5 cavity stik it would do fine . but with them on seperate sides of the runner it does not work well. Sorry Bear

No I do not think the 4 cavity will give you consistent results with laminates. But I will try it and see. I have not tried it yet.

Jim The 2 color Injectors are just slower than doing one color. When you are doing your masterpieces with the multiple colors and veins and such.......Can you do them as fast as you can 1 color baits? Seems to me anytime you want that custom look regardless if it is injected or poured it will take more time. . robalo01 Here is the most distinct reasons I have seen as to the difference in the baits we make with hand injectors and the ones BIG company's make. Quality control Get a bag of baits made by the larger company's and open them up...... lay them on a table and look at the quality of the baits. Very seldom will you find a bag of perfect baits. With the users we have using the techniques we use , Hand pour, hand Injection or what ever we take pride in what we produce. The big company's do not care if they have a dent or a flaw . We do, Our name is on the line and we do not take the chance with letting an imperfect bait slip by. Some people will say the major company's use all different products than what we use but I think that is very misleading. The products from what I know are all basically the same.

Thank you Bountiful Waters. When my mold guy 1st sent me my order I was very upset with him. I loaded it all in the truck drove 10 hours to deliver it back to him. I had no desire to use these products much less attempt to sell them. He looked at me and asked me if I tried them , which I had not. He then proceeded in showing me the process and I was WOWED. That is how this whole mess got started. Is it a hand pour ummmm well I suppose that depends on what is called a hand pour. I personally feel a true hand poured bait is done with a one piece mold like so many of the masters here do. And I am sure others have a different opinion of what a Hand Poured bait is. I will stick with calling these hand Injected baits as I am not ashamed of the products they produce and that is what it is. Are they less quality baits than what a so called hand pour 2 piece mold is. No they are not. The advantages to using hand injection versus hand pouring is several. 1. Thin appendages, this is what sold me on it. I like baits with thin appendages. To me the action of a thin appendage on most baits can not be beat. 2. Ease of Use This method is simple you will have a 99% success rate or better 3. Speed The time it takes to make your baits has been drastically reduced. 4. Clean up , The clean up of the Injectors to switch to another color is very fast and easy. 5. Laminates on most molds. It is awesome to be able to do pretty consistent laminates and other processes such as core shots and swirls with them. There is no cold joint in the laminates. Plenty of other benefits to them as well but those are a few that come to the top of my head. They are not designed to do swim baits, or open pours and we do not advertise them to be able to do so. We stand behind our products 100% and if you try them and they do not suit your needs then we will accept them back with a full refund to you. If anyone has a question or concern with them as far as usage or safety please let me know and I will answer to the best of my ability .

I will agree with you Mike. That is why I said I will not debate anyone about our products on here anymore. I feel it just shows a lot about our business. It is not all about the money to us, We are more concerned our customers are happy and have good products at there disposal. Pike Using an over sized injector will result in a lot of reheating of your plastic. It seems to me that the medium sized Injector we make has been our best seller. it will hold enough plastic to shoot a 5 cavity stik mold or 5 - 7.5" u-tail worms. When you are done there is a little plastic left in the injector which we just purge back into the heat source. The Injectors are not made to load and let stand, they are not heated. You know your needs and how many molds you plan on using the injector on. I would recommend keeping the size as close to what you will consume on each fill.

I do not mind answering questions about the method. I think they can inform people to the correct and safest procedures. But you are correct these type questions normally end up being a debate about who's are best. And why you should buy mine over some other product. I am done defending my products in open forums. 1st off it does not look very professional for any vendor to have to defend there products. There is good and bad with all products. 2nd it causes people to get there blood boiling and none of it is anything other than I want to sell you my product and they want to sell you theirs . Like you stated there are proper places to ask questions about the vendors product rather than coming to an open forum and getting arguments started. Thanks Guys Bear

Pike Every job has a proper tool.You want your injector to fit the project at hand. If you have 1 mold that holds 1/4 oz of plastic that requires an injector, then you will not need to use an 8 oz Injector. These are not heated and the plastic is going to cool in them. Next week you may end up with 20 molds that require an Injector now you could use a larger Injector. As far as things that should work that you mentioned like the Westin Injector, Personally I have better luck sticking to things that are designed for the task at hand. I normally end up spending more money on stuff that does not work and get frustrated then in the end buy the proper tool for the job. The cooking Injectors I have found are not the right tool for the job . They do not come apart to clean well, they have tiny holes in the end, I doubt they have high heat o-rings and the couple we tried did not seem to like heat and got a little soft with the molten plastic in them.The safety aspect also comes into play. When messing with these experimental tools please make sure you have all of your safety gear in place. I am sure there is plenty of things that will get you buy for a while but I doubt they are as efficient as a proper tool made for the job.

Pike I can not be exact on the pressure needed to inject each mold. I can say this everything is a variable in using this process. Amount of Salt, Glitter, Plastic Temp, Mold Temp. They all vary on every pour. Then you add to the fact the amount of cavity's that are in a mold and who knows what the exact pressure that is required. I do not for sure. Most of our molds are single cavity and we get people asking why.............Here is our reasoning behind why. Single cavity require very little pressure to inject. Salt Glitter all seem to disperse evenly. Speed to de mold bait is much faster. More dead aluminum in mold to allow to disperse heat faster less rejects in baits produced with more consistent results. ease of use we like the hinged design. The more cavity's you put in a mold the more pressure required to get it where it has to be. Add salt and glitter to the equation and now you require much more pressure. We do not want anyone hurt and do not feel that the BIG LARGE molds are the ones we want to produce. We want guys to be able to make great baits have fun doing it without getting hurt. If you need to have molds that have 30 to 300 cavity's then I would suggest you move up to a safer system like a FULL BLOWN Injection Machine. Our molds that we make do not require very much pressure to fill them. They are small scale to prevent us from having to use pressure amounts that we should be concerned about. I am not a scientist and can not answer all of your questions with text book answers but I can tell you the amount of pressure required to use the molds we produce is probably less than 2 psi on any mold we have. Maybe someone with more smarts than I have can answer this better.

Question: How quick do the seals in these injectors wear out? If I started using a method like this, I might shoot a gallon a night for several weeks in a row. Answer: Jim they hold up very well. They are designed to handle the high heat that they are exposed to. I know several that have ran a couple hundred gallons through there injectors and they still have not had an issue with them. We have the replacement O-rings and Have sold 1 Bag to a gentleman that lives in COLD country and keeps his injectors laying on a griddle to keep them warm between use. I do not think he has changed one as of yet though. Question: How do you "load" the laminate injectors? Are they 2 seperate injectors that you hook together after sucking up your plastic? Answer: They are 2 separate Injectors yes.They load the same as the single Injectors. The process we try to suggest is to load one Injector and leave it in the heat source you loaded it from while loading the second Injector. Remove both Injectors at the same time and put into the sprue adapter on the mold. Shoot your molds and what is left purge back into your heat source. There is videos of doing it posted . These are not made for production but geared more for the guys that are not in a hurry and want to make something different. Question:How well does the glitter and salt stay suspended if you have to stop, de-mold and restart shooting? Seems this would be more of an issue tahn with hand pouring because you can't re-stir. Answer: The salt and the glitter stays suspended very vell. You are only talking seconds that the plastic is in the Injector. They are not designed to shoot the molds and sit on the side or back into your heat source. They are designed to shoot your molds and then purge the remaining back into the heat source. Once you demold you start over. Statment: I have looked at the teflon aprons closely and I think that would be a good protective device as well for errant plastic. Reply: I will never tell anyone they can use to much safety equipment or practice to much safety using any form of hot plastic. I wear a Denim apron when I work in my shop. I also wear safety glasses and long pants with enclosed shoes. When I am using the hot plastics regardless of what method I use I wear gloves. What ever makes you feel the most comfortable is what I recommend. Statement: Maybe we need a sticky on hand injection do's and dont's like the hand pour one. Reply: That is fine by me I like educating people on what we do. As long as it does not turn into a whos method is better that would be an asset to all of us. Simple fact....Using hot plastic in an unsafe manor is dangerous. We are supposed to be here to guide our customers in the products we use. I feel we do that to the best of our ability. We design our products around being safe, user friendly and productive. Then we do our best in educating our users in using our products. When we built our origianl Injector it had a screw in nozzle. Yes it was more safe then the push in nozzle but our customers did not like them. They were to slow. We made some changes and came up with the push in nozzle. If you use the Injector as we recommend then you will not have any problems. There is no reason that a nozzle will come off of the injector if it is used properly. The handle on the injector should not be pushed on until the nozzle is seated fully into the sprue. They do not take a lot of excessive force to use. It is a simple process once the injector is seated into the sprue all you have to do is put your hand on the plunger and let the weight of your hand assist the plastic into the cavity. You DO NOT HAVE TO PUSH ! Once the cavity is filled remove hand from plunger,reach down with a gloved hand and grab the nozzle and lift out of the sprue. move on to next mold. Once all of your molds are shot purge the remaining plastic back into your heat source. Then you can push the nozzle off of the injector for easy cleaning and then after it is cleaned reinstall it onto the Injector. It is safe and simple. If you make it difficult then you will probably have issues. Is it for everyone ? NO . It does take some change of your methods and I will tell anyone that if you like hand pouring and are satisfied with the products that you are making then please stick to what you have mastered and are comfortable with. This is an alternative method that some use . It Allows us to make baits with thinner appendages in a very timely fashion. It allows us to make perfect baits 99% of the ones we make. It allows the beginner the satisfaction of succeding his 1st time trying to make a bait. It is not frustrating to new users because they fail there 1st time. Hand Injection has its limitations and it has its pros. Is it right for you? That is for you to decide. They are safe if used properly. They do some awesome work if you dedicate the time to learn how to do it. They flat out produce a bunch of baits in a short time. They are not any more expensive than hand pour molds per cavity on most molds. They are fun and they allow new people to make great baits that are the quality of what the big guys make. Thanks Bear

The answer here is to educate your users. Plain and simple, I do not care who you are and who you buy from, or what method you use, if you do not know the dangers involved when dealing with hot plastic you are asking for trouble. The molds we make require less than 2 psi to work efficiently. You start dealing with bigger injection molds 10 to 300 cavity molds as you claim to be making and then you start having more issues because you have to have a lot higher pressure to inject that many cavity's. Then you also have all the rejects that come with multi cavity molds in that range. Even a Zorn machine can and will give 15% rejects. These single cavity molds give less than 1% . Maybe you are not comfortable with the injection system you are using but I am totally comfortable with the system we sell. Really? you asked me about it once on the phone when we were making you an custom mold for you and I told you everythign about it and how its done. along with the presto pots and the pressure pots. You must have me confused with someone else. You have never been asked by me or made me a custom mold Period.

Jim There is no problem using salt in the injectors with it settling out as our injectors are designed to shoot what molds you have on the table then empty the plastic back into your heat source. The injectors are not heated therefore you must purge what is left into your heat source. So no there is not an issue with the salt or glitter settling .

Well I have sat here and Kept my mouth shut so I did not step on nobody's toes but I think I should be entitled to speak my peace here also. Del Several months ago you were sitting here and on your forum telling people how stupid and dangerous hand injection is and was. How it made no sense to make single cavity molds and there was no point because they were to slow. How the tides have changed now you have all of a sudden became the GOD of hand injection also. Let me inform you of a few things............ 1st question you ask is is our injectors perfectly safe? Heck NO!! The problem here is that the question you should be asking is Are they safe enough to use with proper methods being taught and training of the people that use them? ABSOLUTELY I put in 16 to 20 hours a day training our customers on proper use of our products. These injectors are as safe as we feel they need to be. Is a GUN safe if put in a persons hands that have not been properly trained or guided in using it????? NOOOOOOOOO We feel that education of our customers in the use and handling of our products is what make our products efficient and productive while remaining relatively safe. We are not telling anyone to go buy a 12.00 suction gun from NAPA to make an injector we built one . We built one that is simple, fast, and efficient that has got in your pocket.and now you want to start this junk about yours is so much better than mine or whatever it is you are trying to prove. The guy building our injectors and molds has been in the bait industry for 40 years. I have total confidence in the products we offer and the finished products that they produce. We offer as much guidance and training to our customers that we can. Maybe this is something you should try instead of telling everyone how terrible every other product on the market is. Your methods of telling everyone you been doing this for so long and you been in the Aerospace industry for so many years and You have offered injection molds long before Bears Baits is getting old. Now you come on here and attack MT for bringing them into a school??? Shezzzz I am sure he dropped by the class room and dropped the injectors , molds and plastic and a microwave off to a class of 4th graders and told them he would be back tomorrow to pick it all up and see how many have burned there self! Called educate your users something you should learn to do instead of attacking your competitors and there products ! You should decide what side of the fence you want to be on and maybe look at your methods and start educating your customers instead of downing what everyone else does. What gives you the right to come here and call people stupid and tell people that they are stupid for doing things the way they chose? Any body that has one of our products that is not happy with it or feel it is unsafe for use Please let me know so I can offer you a full refund on it. We do not want anybody wasting there money on our unsafe products!

Jim 1st off I did not attack anyone. You were stating things that were not true. I was just trying to let others know that the things you mentioned were incorrect.I apologize if you feel it was an attack. But if you look at the last few post here you have detoured others from trying hand injection regardless who makes them. We make good products that work, and before we showed up yes there was other company's but I did not see any of the other company's mentioned just ours. There is pros and cons in every method and there is no magic in this hobby or business. But for the average user our method is efficient. I did not mean to come off as attacking anyone Jim or MT and I will apologize if it seemed that way. You and MT were stating facts that were a little misleading. I do not detour anyone from any method they chose to use. You are a master at what you do but how many out there do what you do? Not a whole lot and that is what has built your business. We like the route we have chosen and that is what we will pursue and try to educate people on. Again Sorry if you felt it was an attack on you personally.