carolinamike

Well guys, two of the products that we produce have received some great reviews here lately. The Hag's Tornado made Bass Times last month and last month's FLW magazine. And this month the Lateral Perch by Power Tackle, Inc. has also made Bass Times. It's been a long road with a whole lot of ups and downs, but to see a product that you produce in a major magazine sure makes you feel good. If you get a chance to check out Power Tackle or Hag's Tornado shoot me some feedback and let me know how you think the baits look.

I've got to agree with Vodkaman on this one. I think this is a great idea. And realisticly, I think Bear, Dale, Bob, and the other mold makers will like this idea too. From what I've gathered, over a little bit of time now, is that a lot of people are going to hand injection and setting aside the one sided aluminum molds. And just think, with a big enough mold, and a big enough oven, production could be possible. There's already a very popular worm on the market that's made in a very similar way. I think it kind of sounds like robot. And also, I know the guy behind that voice, and you'll not find a more stand up fella than him. And as far as soft plastic and the business goes, he's a definite A-Z encyclopedia. But just think, you could even get little girls interested in this besides little boys. Give them a choice of their colors, the mold of their choice and it's just like baking Christmas cookies.

ifish, 3X plastic is not a plastic you can melt and pour. These baits aren't even produced in the same way as other plastic baits. This is an extruded plastic. When dealing with this type of plastic, high pressure is a must. This is the way these baits are produced. To remelt them and pour them at home, I don't think is a very good idea. I'm really not even sure of the properties of this plastic, whether or not it would be safe to reheat. I know the people that produce this plastic, and it takes special equipment to do this.

Jim, that's one good thing about purchasing a large production mold. You get a single cavity prototype and usually a few samples to test before you make such a large investment. Some companies will give you a free revision and some charge for revisions. My 6 3/4" finesse worm mold I think we actually did three revisions on it before it was the way that I wanted it. But of course, for the price of a big mold, you definitely want the bait looking and working right.

Metalhead, I used the Lee plastic pots for 6 or 7 years. I had 4 big ones and 2 small ones. I rarely used the small ones. The big ones usually take about an hour to heat up without burning the plastic, and halfway through you'll have to adjust the heat down a little bit. 3/4 of the way down, you've got to adjust the heat down a whole lot. We didn't have Presto pots then, it was just Fry Daddy's and Fry Baby's. One does not heat the same as the other, and you really have to use them and get to know them as an individual. The big ones only hold about 20 oz of plastic, and usually if you have 30-40 cavities, or 15-20 molds, it would take about an hour to pour it out. So once I got one hot, I could start the other one and be ready to go all the way down the line. I did production like this for years. I don't have any experience with Presto pots, but you do have an advantage of putting a stirrer on one of those. That's another thing about a Lee pot, you have to stir all the time. If I was going to go that route now, I'd definitely go with the Presto pot, with the stirrer.

Steve, the problem is with the coloring but it's not what you think. Most likely the problem is with your temperatures being equal. Confusing isn't it? Not really, darker colors, by nature, absorb more heat. So when you're laminating black you almost always have to let the black be a little bit colder than the other color. Pearl colors are also bad about blending or wrapping when trying to laminate. The pearl makes the plastic absorb and hold the heat. Salt will also do this. So it's not only time, temperature and pressure, but also the nature of the coloring. As far as a swirl goes (also known as pulse laminate), the way this is usually achieved, is by shooting one color and then the other. In other words, you pulse the colors. Get you a real good stop watch and time one color and then the other. You're probably going to get down to the tenths of a second. But what you're shooting for is the same time every shot to get a half way consistent bait. But as far as a regular laminate goes, start out with your black one or two degrees colder.

Hey guys, I may be going to Costa Rica on business. Is there anyone in the soft plastics forum that lives there?

Jim, almost all commercial baits are laminated side to side. I know it always comes out top and bottom, but actually what happens is the top of the bait is on one half of the mold and the bottom of the bait is on the other half. When this takes place with a large machine, as the plastic enters the molds the two colors run across what's known as a laminating paddle. This actually splits the colors off, then being it 10 cavities or 100 cavities, if all adjustments are right, then it will laminate the entire length of the mold, around 30 inches. If you have a bait such as a shad body and you want to laminate top and bottom, then this is referred to as a cross over laminate. The laminating paddle runs the entire length of the mold. Say if you're doing black and white, the black will come in on one half of the mold and the white will come in on the other. They actually do not laminate until the plastic actually starts into the cavity of the bait. If you're thinking well, is there 2 injection holes going into the bait?, yes there is. This process is a little more tricky. Everything has to be exact. If one color enters the cavity before the other then that's the color the bait's going to be. The timing, temperature and pressure have all got to be in sync in order to achieve this type of laminate. You can go back to the thread, I think it was "large scale production mold", and it will show a normal laminating paddle. I would put a picture up of a cross over laminating mold, but they don't belong to me, they belong to another company. So you understand my hands are tied on posting a picture of this. Before I got these molds, I often wondered how the swim baits were done with top and bottom, but it makes real good sense when you think about a swim bait or a shad body tail, the bait has to be on it's side in the mold for easy releasing, so the cross over laminate is a way to get top and bottom and the bait still laying sideways in the mold. To laminate say, just a regular worm, with a side by side laminate instead of top and bottom you would have a real hard time with curly tail worms and other appendages because the worm would have to be turned up in the mold if that makes any sense. In other words with the worm laying flat on the table with the top up, you would have to turn it up on its side, then the curly tail wouldn't be flat, it would actually be a milled out cavity in the mold. I hope this is not too confusing. But that's how they do a top and a bottom laminate.

Guys, odds are you're going to see more of this come up. The shortage that's being spoken of is plasticizer, not sure if I'm spelling it correctly. There is another chemical being used, I can't remember the initials right off, but I've heard it's not the best stuff for making baits. If the shortage keeps on, it may be that this will be the only product available. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see. From what I've been told, Exxon is one of the main distributors of this material and they have a pretty tough payment policy when it comes to smaller companies, like MF and some of the other smaller plastic distributors. One of the major distributors has assured me that they can get the product anytime, that they get an allotted amount that's allocated to them, because this company pays with a draft from their bank account, which is automatically done when they send the product. Thing about it is, I don't like this company's plastic too well, it's kind of sticky when it comes out and it has somewhat of a petroleum smell that has to be masked. It's kind of got me worried, working for as many companies as we do now, I really don't want to change products after using this one for two years. I don't buy from the smaller companies like LC and MF, but I'm afraid it's going to affect us all. I hear one way of knowing whether or not they're using the new chemical is the baits will be a whole lot more oily than usual.

Jim, you and Dave are both right. The mold really needs to be set up for a laminate shot to do multi cavity laminates. There's usually a device inside the mold that actually does the dividing. The big thing with the machine would be your three standard variables, which are time, temperature and pressure. And take my word for it, each color is different. Pearl colors and dark colors absorb more heat, therefore adjustments have to be made. On a single cavity mold, the main thing to worry about is that both colors exit the injection nozzle at the same time. If wrapping occurs, that's when you'll have to start adjusting temperature. As far as recovery time, the best rule of thumb is you want twice as much heat exchanger than you actually need. In other words, to keep from having recovery time, I suggest not to shoot anything that takes more than a half pound of plastic for a 1 lb heat exchanger. But remember on a two color machine, you would have 2 lbs of plastic at your disposal. You could run the same color in each heat exchanger and shoot the baits in the laminate mode, that way you could shoot up to a pound at a time without losing too much in recovery. I actually shoot one bait that I have to put two 4lb heat exchangers together and shoot in a laminate mode, and I still might have to wait 3 or 4 minutes for recovery. And from what I can tell from the video, you can hold continual pressure on the shot, this will elminate shrinkage dimples. Also, with heat exchangers, you eliminate the problem of foaming and bubbling. As long as your plumbing is air tight, they'll be no air in the system. It's exciting to see something come out like this. I just wonder who'll be the first to knock it off.

I talked with Bear a little bit today. He's real excited about the new machine. I've watched the video and I feel this is going to be a great product to add to the market. The heat exchangers are a little different than pouring pots, you can't leave them idle too long and when going from one color to another, you'll have to do clean out shots. They'll still be good baits, you'll just have to make a few to get the next color through all the way and with the right flake. The thing about it is this is definitely an injection machine, and not a pouring pot. They've thought this thing through pretty good, and I love the way that your hands are completely clear when the plastic is shooting, and it does have some of the same characteristics as the big super expensive machines. One being that you can hold continual pressure on the bait while it cools. This does a lot toward helping eliminate shrinkage dimples. For the guys that want to pick up production, this is going to help. You'll still need a good many molds though. It's definitely a step up, and I think the price is going to be somehwere between $2500 - $3000, but don't quote me on it.

Husky, thanks for the thought. To even pick it up they still want 6 or 7 tons. We've been contacted by a fellow from Honduras, but no one wants to pay much over .30 to .35 per lb, and you can get that here in the States. This company will pick up as little as 3 drums. I'm sure it's all heading to the same place, they just gather it up and send it over in bunches.

Frank, I mainly use fresh. It really has to be ground up well to run through the machines properly, and still you only want to use about 10-15%. And yes Nova I know it's a lot of money tied up in it, but most places won't pick up unless you have 25-35 barrels, and they don't pay a whole lot for it. But it's enough for vacation money each year. On average between purging out the machine, the very first and the very last shots have a lot of air incorporated in them and bad baits and runners, we usually manage a barrel of scrap about every two weeks. Troul Hawk, we've almost always got runners, right now we have plenty of green pumpkin and watermelon candy. And that was just what was made in the last two days. We've made 15000 pieces since Monday and that's only with one machine. The other machine I'm configuring to do a two color laminate with a third color tail. Sample for prospective client. The one good thing about selling the scrap this way, they don't care what colors go together (bleed or non bleed) and it doesn't matter if it's salt water or fresh water plastic. But when your work space is 20x20 it's a relief to see 18 barrels leave.

Well it's been a year and a half of running the machine and I had a recycling company contact me and wanted to know if I had scrap to get rid of. After all was said and done, and about 3 days of going through barrels, and making sure it was good, clean stuff, we ended up with a little over 6500 lbs of scrap. 18 55 gallon drums. I guess this is one way of going green.

Cami, everyone's right, it's always best to add flourescent coloring before heating. But if you do find yourself in the situation like I did, where you didn't put enough coloring in the plastic, there is a way to cheat and the coloring not clump up. Take a small amount of plastisol, mix your coloring up, stir into your already heated plastic, not much so you don't incorporate air, and then reheat a little. This saved my tail a couple of times.

If you're picking up the shipping costs in advance, we could probably fix you up.

Robert, I used to use 536 all the time when I did hand pours. It's a very good durable plastic and it floats well. The thing about 536 and other LC plastics is they settle a good bit. This is not a real bad thing, just make sure you mix your plastic very, very well before you heat it. You can use a microwave to heat it. Heat it up slow, stirring occaisionally, be sure and stir gently as not to incorporate air into the product. I've found you can add most coloring either before of after heating, except for flourescent colors. They definitely need to be added before heating. There is a trick that you can do to add flourescent after it's hot, but it's easiest to add before heating. As far as flake goes, if it was me I would probably hold off until after the plastic was heated to add and yes, there will be some people who say to do these two things opposite. This is just what I've found worked best for me. You can also use a stove, a Presto pot or a Lee pot (for plastic). Just heat slowly and pay attention to what you're doing, you should do fine, when you get the plastic a little thicker than pancake syrup, where it pours evenly, you're hot enough. A stainless steel butter knife makes a great stirrer. Also, make sure you have very good ventilation. That should get you started. If you start having trouble from there then do another post and we'll help you out. Good luck and we expect to see pictures of the baits.

Boat Guy, I used Lee pots for a long time. They're a little annoying to clean. Pop the c clip off with a small screwdriver and remove the valve pin. After you use the pot a few times it will get seasoned and the plastic should start coming out with the valve pin. There will be a sticky residue from the chunk of plastic up. Rubbing alcohol and a stainless steel scrubbing pad works very well to remove this. Sometimes Lee pots have a hot spot on one side or the other. You can take a butter knife and flake the burnt plastic off. This usually does not affect the plastic that you are pouring, it usually happens when your plastic's getting low in the pot. Just remember half way through adjust your heat down a little. Also the pouring hole. I used to use a drill bit just a little smaller than the hole to remove the plug.

Vodkaman, help me out with this one. It must have something to do with the mass, how come a six inch worm will float a 3/0 hook but a 2 lb block of the exact same plastic sinks? Never exactly understood why this happens, just know that it does. But because of the shape of some of the baits that I make, even thicker body ones will float up off the bottom, but won't float on the surface even without a hook. I like to think it's magic.

Del and Nova are both right. Unless you specifically design the frog to float, you will need floating bubbles. I worked with a company not too long ago that's frog body was thick and probably about an inch and a half wide, even using a super soft plastic after rigging the bait and a couple of yanks it sinks. Slow but it sinks. You can shape the body, add air pockets and other things that will make it float without bubbles, but if it's thick and considerably wide for a bait, that much plastic will need help floating.

Basspro, PM me your address. If you will pay the shipping, I'll see what I can do to fix you up. It's a soft medium formula, it's not LC's plastic or anyone elses. It's an industrial plastic, made for machine production, but a lot of guys on TU will tell you it makes great re-melts. Let me know how much you need lb wise, and I'll see what I can do for you. I remember when I was 14. And to all the guys on TU, let's help keep them off the street and on the water fellas.

Bob, just think about it 12 hours to do a single cavity mold, even with the big fast CNC machines, the programming time in itself can really be drawn out. That's the reason that you guys ordering from Bear, Bob and Del wonder why it takes so long. Keep these things in mind. Del, the price of 8-30K for a production mold is a little blown out of proportion. Most of your plain solid color molds, straight solid with flake no laminate, start at around 4K. A real complicated mold might run you 10K or a little over. But on the norm, 4-10K is about the price range for a production mold. And you're right for those that this is just a hobby and they're making their own fishing baits, this is definitely not the route to go. But there are those out there that are like me and my wife and had a really hard time trying to keep up with hand pours. This post is mainly so people can understand why these things are so expensive. You yourself I know have no problem understanding this. But as far as the expense goes, we paid for 3 of our molds the first six months of business, and we've found this to be true with most of our customers. And it's mainly because they can spend all of their time marketing and promoting their products. If you're just making your own fishing stuff, you can't beat hand pour and hand injected. But if you're making stuff and selling it and it's starting to get overwhelming, relief is expensive but not that expensive. Dave, probably 8-10 weeks, this is a pretty complicated mold.

Well we're back from Zorn. We drove down Sunday and back on Monday. 7 hours at 58 mph, top speed. Everything went well and the machine is in the building. I'll post some pictures later. I was talking with redg8r and we kind of got to discussing production molds and the cost. He seemed to think that a lot of people have a hard time justifying the cost because they've never seen a big production mold. So I talked to Ray and Regina at Zorn and they're OK with me posting a picture of one of my personal molds. We'll put the picture up the best that we can, not really sure how this works. So if the size comes up not right, somebody help us out. By the way, this is a standard 5" finesse worm. It's an 80 cavity mold, as you can see the channel runs up the middle and the baits branch off of each side. The middle channel is where the runner comes from. You can tell the size of the mold by the 55 gallon drum lids.

Thanks all for the well wishes. Except for the traffic last time, Interstate 85 wasn't too bad. We hope to have better timing on the traveling this time. Yeah Jim I'll post some pictures of baits. I'll slap on one of my private label molds one of these days, I'm anxious to see how this thing works and we'll post the pictures. As far as the cost of the machine, I get to see my two children once a month and my wife every other week and my artificial arm and leg will be here next week, if that gives you an idea of the cost.

Well here we go again. Our new machine is ready to be picked up at Zorn. Guys this thing is a monster. It's a 3 color hydraulic machine with a core shot valve and 2 extra heat exchangers. I can't wait to play with this thing. I have 2- 3 color molds, this is going to be some neat work to do, man these are going to be neat. We're going to leave Sunday evening for about a 7 hour drive to Alabama. We'll stay a couple of nights but we're going to try to head home early Tuesday. Wish us luck coming through Atlanta on the six lane. I'll be pulling a trailer with my pickup with a 3000 lb machine on the back. Things were real intense coming through there last time, hope our timing is better this time. I'll post some pictures when we get back, if it's not going to make anyone mad.