carolinamike

Man, you've received some good advice. Bob and Jim both have laid out a lot of words of wisdom. But I will say this, as someone that makes plastic for a living, don't get discouraged. If you want to play with it, and if you use good common sense and treat people like you would want to be treated, you can make some money at it. But let me warn you now, and Jim will probably agree with this, you will almost never get fully paid for your time that you put into your product doing hand pours or hand injection. It takes a lot of molds and a lot of dedication to produce a large amount of baits by hand and to do it any other way takes a lot of money and a real good wife. But if you target Mom&Pop stores, start out experimenting with your products by giving samples to friends to fish, then you'll get an idea of the interest in your product. I was told a long time ago there was no way I could make a living selling plastic baits. I admit, some days I agree, but when all is said and done, it's more or less left up to your determination. Read advice, listen to advice and store advice in your head, so if you do decide to start up a small bait thing you can always keep these things in mind when approaching customers. From my experience over the years I've found that most people that's in the fishing business, started out small, and you've got to start somewhere. We're working with two companies this year that have went from hand pour to injection, they finally figured the time thing out. If things get to going that good for you, then there will come a time that it's more profitable for someone with the know how and the equipment to produce your baits, that way you concentrate on marketing and sales. Most people start out playing around doing hand pours, they catch a fish or two off of their baits, they tell a buddy, he wants a couple of baits, he tells a buddy and so on. Hand pouring becomes addictive real quick. Even with the equipment that I have, and the thousands of baits that we make a day, I am still fascinated that I can make something that you can go out and catch a fish on. I've never lost this thrill since day one. So I say try it. It's the time of the year when people are getting their income tax money back and it's really not that expensive. Start out playing with your own stuff and see where it goes from there. You just might be able to fill a need in the fishing industry one day, who knows.

Guys when this machine came up on Ebay, I made a lot of comments about not being able to see in the box. Since then, I have talked with someone and found out that the reason you're not being shown all the working parts is because there are some proprietory matters involved with this one. In other words, secret parts and designs. This is not unusual. Before the pot that is sold by LC was put on the market, someone had to buy one to copy. These things have been around for a long time. It's just a matter of making one better. The problem is that they're cheaply made and sold for high prices. After talking with the guy about the one in the box, I think his ideas are great and if he sells a product, I'm sure he will stand behind it. The problem is that other companies are wanting to see how they are made without the purchasing. I purchased one and built one. The one I purchased was a joke. The one I made I'm still using today to shoot companies single shot prototypes for samples of new products. Like I said the injector in the box that was advertised on Ebay sounds like an alright piece of equipment, but be careful, there's a lot of used equipment out there and some of it you can buy for nothing because it's worth nothing. If I was going to make any kind of investment on a machine, then I would call Ray at Zorn Molds and find out what my options were, they make several different types of machines and the really nice ones cost no more than a high end bass boat. It's just according to how far you want to go with it. Just take my word for it, be careful what you wish for!

Nova, there still is a worm in production today with a hollow chamber in the tail. It's called the Hag's Tornado and the Hag's Undertaker. We produce these baits for the company and not only is the idea to float the baits, but they also put scent and plug the hole with a small piece of cotton. And sometimes on bedding fish they put a little piece of Alka-Selzer in the chamber to make it bubble. You can do a search for his website if you'd like to look at them. Either one of the names above should put you to a link to his site. As far as the core shot goes, why not inject the core and the body at the same time instead of coming back to do the core? I saw a video of that being done on Bear's Baits. There's actually a special valve for my machine that does core shots and if I'm not mistaken, the mold itself has to be setup for a core shot, but we're talking about the big stuff here. But as much as these guys are playing with hand injectors, surely it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a core shot injector. Hmmm, wonder if the race is on now!

If you look around you notice no one is claiming 100% green plastic. Adding flake alone kills this part of it. A lot of the plastics advertised as green plastics still have their disadvantages to the environment. It's just someone feels one is better than the other. As far as the fish themselves go, I could understand the concern about trout. They're a more delicate species of fish than a largemouth. What gets me is the politicians are trying to use one study done on one type of fish. For those bass fisherman out there how many of you can honestly say they saw an adverse effect that they were absolutely sure was caused by a plastic worm. Over the years I've seen fishing line with sinkers on it, rusty hooks, plastic worms and crawfish claws hanging out of the rear end of a largemouth. Almost all of these fish were fat, healthy fish. And if the lead, the monofilament line and the fish hook made it through, then I don't understand the big deal. NC's biggest reservoir is Lake Norman. I've fished it since I was 7 or 8. I'm now 48 and over the years I'm sure there's been a ton of plastic baits lost in the lake. The lake was once known as the Dead Sea. Now it's at the top of it's game. It's even produced a state record spotted bass. All this came by proper water management and managing the right forage for the fish. It never had anything to do with plastics at all. I'm the last person that would like to see a fish harmed, but I sure would like to see the proof in how these studies were done. And if it's only affecting one species of fish, then of course ban using plastics for that particular species, which by the way, NC has done for scented plastics when trout fishing.

gcl58, Don't take me wrong, I'm not bad mouthing the machine. I'm sure your baits are of the finest quality. But, this thing's just got my curiosity up. I pretty well used all these things to build mine. Is the heating element a band or a cartridge heater or some other type? Also what do you mean by 4 zone injection piping? What are the 4 different zones? Also, the 3 zone mixing paddle. Is that a 3 bladed mixing paddle or are there 3 different chambers in the box? To me it sounds basically like a well disguised pressure pot, with just a different injection nozzle. Also, it said the original cost was $4000, did you have to buy it new and then do all this work to it? If so, what was the final cost if you don't mind me asking? Again, I'm not putting it down, I've just seen these things made 50 different ways, and this one has just grabbed my interest.

These types of plastic molds are called pie molds. They are not spin cast molds, but are injected. These types of molds are used with pre-rigged hooks, built in rattles, mylar and other reflective strips. It's also a way for a person to up production without the big expense of a large production mold. These run about half the cost of a large production mold to produce. But, of course it takes more time to make them. This type of machine will probably be our next purchase, but of course this is years in the future. I've heard through the grapevine, that the Z company uses a lot of molds like this, which would make sense considering how much salt is in their plastic.

Clearwater, you can build your own injector/pouring pot. With today's prices, it's probably going to run you a little over $1000.00. It's been about 8 years since I built mine and I know some of the prices have gone up, but the heat controls have improved considerably. As far as the LC pot goes, I also made the mistake of purchasing one of those. And if it's like it used to be LC just sells them, they don't make them. Kim and the folks at LC are fine people. The bottom of the pot is fine, I still use mine. It's the lid that I have a problem with. Let's just say it's not a safe product and it's very cheaply made considering the price. If you check back through the threads, there's a lot of bad reports on these. But if done correctly, they're perfectly safe, and if you add a heated valve, then you can gravity pour with no pressure. I used to sit down with 40 molds and 2 gallons of plastic, makes for a long day man. As far as the presto pots go, there is a whole lot of good things said about these. When I started all we had was a fry daddy and a fry baby. They did ok for dipping tubes, they just never performed well as a pouring pot. The injector that's $4000 and just sold on Ebay for around $700, there's no way I would consider purchasing this thing until I see what was in the box. Most likely you're going to find a pressure pot and a heat band. The reason they're not showing you the inside of the box is because if you see it, you will be able to build it. There are rumors out of smaller injection machines coming out in the future, but before I spent $4000 on something in a box, I'd contact Ray at Zorn Molds and find out what the cost of a sample shooter would be. Like I say if you dig back through the TU archives, you ought to be able to find a lot of information.

Del, since you're somewhat familiar with the thing, tell me more of what's inside the box. I'd like to see how this thing is set up. The thing that scares me the most about it is the position of the nozzle. Now if your injection hole was in the side of the mold, where you had some way of holding a little pressure without tilting it to one side or the other, then yeah it's about as safe as everything else on the market that you inject with by hand, it's really up to the user to be safe. But my machine only uses a 3/8" injection hole and the sample shooter I made has like a 3/16" or maybe a 7/16" injection hole. It's just the thought of a 1/2" stream of plastic spraying off of one side of the mold or the other, say if it was a top fill mold. I usually shoot top fill prototypes and when you are filling from the bottom of the pot, you can hold the mold up against the valve and you've got the weight of the pot pushing back and it's real easy to hold straight. I remember I sent you the plans on how to build one like mine, I wondered what ever came of that. I understand what you're talking about, some Dad buys his kid, 16 or older say, one of these things from you and the kid gets distracted, you wonder how the liabilities would go, and if you're like me, I personally couldn't stand the thought of some kid being scarred for life. Frank, I guess what I should have said, is I couldn't believe someone actually bid on the thing, without seeing what's in the box. Did you look at the Lee pot with the gigantic control system? I thought it was a hoot for 20oz of plastic.

I just did a Google search on the company that manufactures this unit, if you really want to get a laugh, check out the P19W plastic melter. Now that's a souped up Lee pot if I've ever seen one.

Guys just by the looks of this thing, it looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. What do you do just hold the mold up against the nozzle and hope you don't let it slip? I see no clamping device whatsoever. From the description of this thing it's a hot pot in a box. About the same thing that's sold at LC, except in a metal box. I guess if you can't see it you feel safer. There's very limited details on this item, I just wonder why it's for sale. Out of all the things I've seen on the market, this one looks to be the most hazardous of all. At least the one at LC has a nozzle coming out the bottom that you could lower the pot down onto the mold. And unless your mold is drilled with a 1/2" injection hole, I just really don't see a safe way to get the plastic into the mold with a side injecting nozzle. If anybody knows any more details on this apparatus I sure would like to find out more about it. Is there a safety sheet with it? And is there any kind of manufacturers warranty? Like Frank said, it's going to be interesting to see how this one turns out. I can't believe the bid is at $510 already.

Fishoey, Exactly what are you looking for in a mold? If you're looking for a hand pour or hand injected, then Bear's Baits, Bob's or Del-Mar Molds are good places to start. With some of the things going on with Reaction Innovation and Zoom be sure that your product is not infringing on another company's product. If it is, odds are none of these guys will do the work for you. If you're looking for a large scale production mold, for someone else to produce your baits for you, you can PM me and I'll give you the contact information for Zorn Molds. Caution, these types of molds are very expensive. Also, keep in mind that this is custom work and it will take some time. If you're wanting to do the plastic yourself shop around, compare prices, look at pictures of all the different company's molds. Also check through the threads here on TU there's a lot about molds and mold makers and customer service and quality that you can probably spend days reading up on.

I believe what really got everybody on this one is the time frame. If Andre had really went after people like he's doing now when the Beaver first hit the market I'm sure there wouldn't be so many knock off's out there today. Don't get me wrong, he paid for the patent, he paid for the copyright, by all means it's his bait. When you sit back and really think about it, maybe this was part of his intentions. To let it go to the point that the big companies got involved, then cash in with the lawyers. There definitely is a lawsuit on the docket filed against Strike King (filed 11-06-09). If they win this one, watch out. They'll go after the next big company. I can't wait to see how it turns out in the end, but I will say this, if you are making anything close to the bait, then I would stop. I work for people now, that put a lot of time and money in developing plastic baits. The cost you wouldn't believe, and you've already read some quotes about the cost of a patent and copyright, so you see what they have at stake.

Thanks for you suggestion but our shipping volume is way to big for USPS. We put two smaller size boxes in the bigger boxes for shipping and most of the time we're shipping 10-20 of the bigger boxes, so that's 20-40 smaller boxes. I'm afraid I'd make my local postmaster mad.

Hey Guys I was wondering if anyone could help me out with this one. I am trying to find a good source for boxes to do bulk packaging in. I know there's Uline and a couple of other companies like them out there, but they are just too expensive. I know I can do better on these boxes than what I'm doing right now. This just seems to be one thing that I'm having a problem getting in touch with the right person on. The boxes are used for bulk packaging the plastic baits that we do for other companies. The sizes we use are 12x12x6, 12x12x9, 14x14x14, 14x14x16. Any help on this will be greatly appreciated. Right now, the cheapest price I can find on the 12x12x6 is .50 per box, and this is from Uline. Everybody keeps telling me I can do much better on boxes but I just can't seem to get that connection. Like I said any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Del, I've already been through this same situation with Zoom. The Zoom chunk has a same type of patent as the Sweet Beaver, it is a design function patent. Therefore, a percentage of looks has no bearing on this issue. It does not matter if there is a 90% difference if there is 1 item be it a ridge, a bump or any other design and it's designated in the patent that these ridges and bumps cause the bait to perform in a certain way, then it doesn't matter what the bait looks like. If it's similar in design and this design causes the bait to work the same way as the Sweet Beaver then it is infringement in the eyes of the law. Unless the 3 patent attorneys that I spoke with are telling a lie, it is solely left up to a judge. As far as Reaction and the Strike King suit goes the same mold maker made both molds. The mold maker is a very stand up guy, I'm sure if he felt like there was any patent infringements, that he would not have proceeded with the mold. I know for a fact that he's turned down doing molds similar to the Beaver because I'm one of the people he turned down. There's a fable that's floating around about baits and has floated around for years, that there has to be a percentage of difference. This may be true to some point, but when a company goes through the trouble to get a design function patent instead of a regular design patent it's intended for complete protection of the bait, or product patent. There's a whole bunch of "I think it should have" or "to me it looks like", these don't work with these types of patents. I know for a fact, my chunks were completely a different shape, different head design and a different tail design. All except for the ridge on the outside of the tails. That's what got me. I went to a lawyer and talked with him and he felt like that percentage of difference was way more than what I needed to beat Zoom, but when he pulled the patent from the patent # alone he already knew that I didn't have a chance. If there is a letter that comes after the patent # such as "S" of "B" or something like that, then most likely this is a design function patent. I think this is a good subject to bring up again not to tell each other that we're wrong or right, but to help TU members that's not quite as high up in this thing as we are not to make a costly mistake. Just the attorney fees alone with no guarantee of winning was enough to tell me that my dog wasn't big enough for the fight. But as far as mold makers go, and I'm sure you know this, it is up to the individual to research patents, not the mold maker. For instance, if I request a certain mold and it's a patent infringement, then the responsibility falls on me, not my mold maker. On this subject I'm real careful not to speak on things that I don't know about, the last thing I would want to do is lead someone the wrong way and them get in a lot of trouble.

Reaction is really starting to get serious about the Sweet Beaver now, and you really can't blame Andre. Molds are expensive, patents are even more expensive, and protecting them can even be more expensive than those. I've also been privileged to receive a letter not from Reaction but from another company. I do know that there are two kinds of patents. A design patent and a design function patent. Andre has a design function patent which means that not only is the looks and designs protected but any similar design that would make the bait function in the same way, will be a target. So, it's not necessarily just the looks or the name. This bait like a lot of others is protected all the way around. If you are brave enough to take it to court, the way it was explained to me was the final decision was left up to the judge. How many court judges do you think are machinists or bait designers? So it will be left up to who can really afford the best attorney. And if you lose, the penalities are tremendous. In other words, they might not can stop you, but they can break you out of the habit. But you know if you look back on the Sweet Beaver over the past few years, Andre's been real generous. When the bait first came out I purchased a silicone mold that actually had the initials RI in the tail. I never used it and got rid of it pretty quick. And like Del said, look at the many numerous knock offs that's on the market at this time, and with the economy like it is and with the money Andre's probably got invested, you really can't blame him, and you really can't go after one unless you go after everybody, so I look to read more about this subject. I think there will probably be a lot of people getting letters.

I don't know Chad personally, maybe one day I'll get to meet him. I've done some reading up on him today and it sounds like he's a great representative for the sport of bass fishing, and I'm sure he'll make an outstanding addition to the El Grande team. Bountiful, I know what you mean. 8 years of hand pouring was a hard way to try to make production, and you know like a lot of others, when you decide to make the big move, it's best to either go one way or another. Either design, market and sell or concentrate totally on production. We' ve both found that it's hard to do both. I don't get to respond near as much as I used to on TU, but I do check in 2 or 3 times a day, just mainly to see what everybody is up to. Good luck to you and Chad in this business relationship. I hope things go well for you at the Classic. Now with the lakes getting water back in them, maybe it'll be a big year for us all.

I'm two years into doing plastic full time and what everyone's telling you is right. It's very expensive and truthfully I would hate to try to make a living doing hand pours. You only think fishing's a cutthroat hobby. You think tournament fisherman are bad, wait until you start competing with big time bait makers. It's like no one likes to see a new guy come in. Then you've got to look at things like taxes, which have already been mentioned. Plus facilities, equipment, raw materials, employees and everything else that goes along with this business, can make it really hard to be successful. Most people either produce baits or sell baits. Our intentions were to produce our own baits in large quantities for the retail market. If I would have stuck with this plan, I would already be out of business. If you're really sincere about selling a product that you've created, then you're really better off to purchase the mold and have someone produce the baits for you. To make enough baits to sell to have a comfortable living and be able to afford health insurance and other necessities, you would get tired of the hand pours real quick. We tried to keep up with the demands of three local tackle stores doing hand pours and was successful for a couple of years, but with me and my wife both working full time jobs and pouring and packing until all hours of the morning, just didn't work out. We now have one injection machine and are doing work for 5 or 6 different companies and I love every minute of it, but take this week for instance the mold is 30"X20" and the bait is so big that you can only get 14 cavities in the mold. It takes 8 hours to make 2500, imagine if you had to do that by hand. We are about to purchase a super machine 3 color, core shot valves, everything you can get in an injection machine. Over the weekend I worked from 8 pm till 9:45 am so be careful what you wish for. Just my long thoughts. Mike

Greg, I'm glad to hear that the pork fat incorporated into the plastic well. The only thing is, the store bought processed lard is nothing like the old timey lard that Grandpa and Grandma used to make at home. I think you'd be better off frying some slices of salt pork and then using that grease in the plastic. You get the pork flavor plus the added salt. I believe rendering this out would be closer to the homemade stuff.

Guys the way they're probably incorporating the pork fat into the plastic is by melting or rendering out the grease, in other words, frying it. Then you can actually take the pork grease and pour it into your liquid plastisol. This is an oil so it should blend nicely. If you don't want to put it into your plastisol, then pour it over your mustard or collard greens right before cooking for seasoning. Tastes delicious! Fish and people love Southern cooking.

Mainbutter, Judge this one according to your need for speed or the size of your pocketbook. Of course the obvious advantage to injected baits is the speed at which they can be produced. If you're just making for yourself to fish with, and you're not looking for the production aspect of it, then hand pouring is the way to go. As it was said, sticks are easy to make and hand pouring gives you a lot of open area to experiment such as different colors and additives (flakes,scent & salt). It's really up to the individual. Me, I'm not happy unless I'm making 60 every 90 seconds. It's really just based on what you want to put into it.

We, as a manufacturer, pay Federal Excise Tax (10% of all sales) and file form 720. Also, our local state sales & use tax where applicable. You should also check with your local county regarding property taxes on your equipment. If you have any questions you should consult with an accountant or the IRS, as well as your local state Department of Revenue. They are very helpful.

Fisheye, As someone has already said, oil based scent will work with candle wax. It should do just fine with beeswax. Make sure it's an oil based scent, melt a small amount of wax down. Add your scent. Let it set up, you should be able to tell whether or not you've got enough scent to the wax by experimenting this way. If you feel like it's too much scent add a little more beeswax. You might also try whipping some air into it before it sets up. It might make it easier to apply to your flies. I'm really not a fly fisherman, but just by a common sense look at things, this should work.

Thanks Jim, I appreciate it. The plum looks awesome! If you don't mind me asking, are those hand injected? They look great. We've just spent 2 days with a couple from Canada. The fellow bought a machine like mine and has really been having a hard time running it. He was especially having a hard time with the laminating mode. But after 2 days, he left with a big smile today. I think his confidence is up now. I had him running the machine today and he did a very good job laminating. They're heading to Myrtle Beach in the morning, I think for about a week and then heading back to Ottowa. It's so interesting the people you hook up with in this business. Keep up the good work and keep posting the pictures. It's hard for me to do because it's someone else's product.