carolinamike

Yes Del we did get to meet Tony. Tony and Wendy do the computer work but we got to meet the whole gang. If you call, Tracy will be the one that answers the phone, she's as good as gold. These folks have really helped us through every step of this move. Ray told us before we left that we have the very best pneumatic two color plastic injection machine that Zorn has ever built. Ray told us he'd taken the best features from all the machines he's done and put them into this machine. In the course of our conversation, Ray told us that our machine was better than some of the bigger bait companies. As far as who the 3 are after seeing how all this works I can't really say any names because I wouldn't want anyone to say mine. But I can tell you this, probably almost every big bait company in the US, China and Japan and other countries have probably consulted with Ray at one time or another.

Hello in TU land. Hope everyone is doing well. Me and the wife just got back from our trip to Zorn Molds. The plastic injection machine is great! Although the 6 hour drive and the 6 lanes through Atlanta was a little nerve racking with a piece of equipment like that on the back of a trailer pulled behind my pickup truck. But she's home and in the shop. The electricity should be hooked up next week and hopefully I can get the air piped in this weekend. In the past 2 days we sure have learned a lot about the plastic industry. Industrial plastic injection equipment is nothing like I thought or read about. The plastic is not injected with air. Air is only used to hold the plates shut for the molds and to operate the valves. The plastic is injected by means of high pressure pumps which hold continuous pressure on the baits for a certain amount of time until cooling has taken place. The molds are made with water jackets running through them and the water is circulated through a chiller system which cools the molds rapidly creating a beautifully uniform bait. Man I'm telling you we got the grand tour. We got to see several molds being made some new baits that are coming out from bigger companies that are in development stages, not sure whose they were but I know of 3 big companies they do business with. If anyone ever decides to make this move, it's not that far out of reach. Plastic machine costs about as much or maybe less than a high end new Ranger boat. Ray and Regina and the rest of the gang at Zorn are just A#1 people to do business with. And the only way to describe Ray is he is a plastic guru. He knows every process and every aspect of plastic injection. But you've got to remember he and Regina set the standard for the industry. If anyone is interested in maybe expanding one day or just interested on how this machine works, feel free to ask. Attached are some pictures of the machine, Ray and myself at Zorn. I'm the taller fella. Thanks so much for the kind words we've received from some of you who knew we were doing this. And remember if you would like to expand, but don't want the expense of the machine we will be more than glad to shoot your baits for you. Your friend,

Fatman Tried to click on that site and it will not come up. Any suggestions? Also try Zorn Molds they have a great injection machine and from what I understand they are one of the top in the industry.

We at Carolina Baits are currently in the process of setting up a large scale production system. We should be producing baits within the next three weeks. It may be a little longer on our worms, we are not sure when the molds will be ready, but we will pick up the injection machine this weekend. I'm not sure what you're wanting whether you have a worm that you want injected or if you are just looking for worms to buy, either way I will try to help you if I can. If interested send me a PM. If anyone else is interested please contact me as we would like to produce baits for other companies.

GB44 - Sounds like a great idea. Keep 'em off the streets and on the water. Make sure all your safety aspects are covered including proper ventilation, that is very important. Remember hot plastic does not fall off, if you get it on your hand and wipe it off with your other hand, you got burned twice. Been there, done that and got a t-shirt. You really could string this thing out all year long though, if they design their bait, build a prototype, make a mold and then pour the end result, it should give them something to really look forward to. We need more classes like this. If nothing else, something to compete with the video game industry. There's a lot of different tools and a lot of different ways to make prototypes, one way that would be fun and easy for the kids is to get a couple of the small (2)AA powered braided fishing line cutter, all that happens is the tip heats up to cut the line. You can take an assortment of different plastic baits and take parts from these, use the line cutter to weld the parts together, then make POP molds of the prototypes. Sounds like they have a great teacher.

Jim go for it! Call it the greasy tater. A little worm oil ought to add to the effect.

Jim If you go to your local grocers the store brand of green beans are usually located beside the Green Giant green beans. If you go to Lowes, you can find the channel locks pliers right beside Lowes Cobalt pliers. In our hometown we have a GM dealership and the same family owns a Kia dealership right beside each other. Why should the bait business be any different? Grayer and grayer:?

Charlie, one company is Johnson Bag Co. Their minumum is 30000. Four colors at .11 per bag. This is currently where we get our clear laminated bags now, and their prices are great. The other company is Inpact Poly Products. inpactpoly.com. They have great looking products. One of the companies they do bags for is Chomper baits. They are .10 per bag, 50000 minumum order. Between $200 & $250 per color plate setup. The thing about it is we have so much tied up in our bait business now that we're kind of afraid that we need to go with professional packaging. Considering we are just a 2 person very part-time business, we've been lucky. Every store we've gotten into so far has been by word of mouth advertisement and almost all the time came from other customers. And we also outsell the Z*** company 2 to 1. We are to the point now that we can't keep up with what we've got, so we've kind of jumped in head over heels. At this point we are in the middle of making a lot of decisions about the business so any feedback on this subject is greatly appreciated. If you ever decide you might want to go into large scale production, let me know, I can tell you just the guy you need to talk to, but it is a big investment. Thanks

Charlie, Our plans are to use laminated bags. I don't think with these I will have the dry rot problem. At one time we used poly bags and had a chance to buy up a large quantity because they were discontinuing the size. Big mistake with poly bags. Their shelf life is not that good. We checked on the price per bag, labels vs. preprinted, and with taking into consideration buying the bags, ink cartridges, and labels it came out to around .11 per bag. The exact same cost as 30000 preprinted bags per bag. We were thinking if they cost the same and if we can afford it why not go with the more attractive package. Preprinted bags would also reduce time and labor in the packaging dept (my wife), and as much labor as I can reduce in the packaging dept. the better off I'll be if you know what I mean. I've got 2 companies names so far, one has sent samples, they really are good looking bags, but I've never really considered the shelf life of a laminated bag. So thanks so much, it gives me another question I need to ask.

A little bit more history for you guys, which I'm sure some of you already know this. When first introduced some people felt the plastic worm was too effective in catching fish. This was before the days of catch and release. It was believed to be so effective that some thought it would deplete the fish population and if I'm not mistaken, there were some attempts to ban it. Can't remember exactly where I read this but how would you like to be the guy that had the bait that was too good? Just a thought.

I have just recently been warned about this problem. I am having some large aluminum molds made. The gentleman that is making my molds said that if my plastic was too soft that it would dent. This could be what he was talking about, in fact I'm sure it is. I am wondering whose plastic and what formula you are using. Maybe a little hardener will solve your problem. Sorry I am just now responding, I just about missed this one.

Boskabouter, try using an industrial floor wax made for a high speed buffer as a coating. I've got POP molds that are 6 & 7 years old, they still make great looking shiny baits. After your molds have dried, I mean really cured out, I immerse my mold in the wax overnight, then I blow all the excess wax off the mold and out of all small crevices. Let it dry a couple of days then I use a Qtip and a small amount of wax and give the mold a good coating, not just the cavity, but the top as well. Again blow off all excess wax. Then I let the mold dry directly in front of a fan. The drying usually takes place pretty fast. 30-45 minutes. After about 5 coats I let it dry overnight. Then I repeat the process again. You should start to notice that it's taking less and less wax to coat the mold and the mold should become smooth and shiny. I usually finish up with about 12 coats altogether. It's kind of time consuming, but after fifty or so baits, the polymers in the wax usually adhere to everything for life and make the mold more durable. Make sure the wax is made for use for a high speed (high rpm) buffer. The fast rotation of the buffer heats the polymers spreading them and making a shiny floor. They make a shiny mold too. If you need anymore information on this process, just let me know. Be sure and blow away all excess wax and if you wear glasses and your use your breath to blow off the wax it is very important to remove your glasses. Found out the hard way, safety glasses work better.

Matt, I know I said no more on this subject but by far I don't need my butt kissed and the last thing I am is upset with you. My main concern is that a common business practice in every form of business in the US (generic products) is being referred to as an illegal act (stealing, ripping off, etc). After going back and reading all these threads, man you've kind of been ganged up on and no matter what you stood strong on your opinion and I am very impressed by that. If you ever decide to quit what you do for a living, man you would make a heck of a politician. Me, you, Jim, Sam and the others have brought up so many good and bad points in producing plastic baits. We've all stated our opinions strongly and each of us knows how the others stand. Now let's all turn this thing around and do what I feel like this website is all about. I imagine someone that's just got the idea to start selling their plastic and might have read all this could possibly be scared to death right now. Everybody that has valid legal information, not opinions, but real solid information please give it up. What state, county and city did the legal action against Storm take place in? My wife who is a deputy clerk in the clerk of superior courts office thinks this is probably public record and can be accessed. I would love to know the details. Information like this will keep us all legal. Opinions stated, let's all turn this around and help each other and all other TU viewers to know how we all stand legally. Again, the last thing I am is upset with you. You have taken a very strong stand despite the opposition and you should be commended by all for this. Your products look great and I can tell by your baits you are a skilled craftsman, I would also love to see some of your taxidermy work. If you ever find yourself in NC I would enjoy greatly showing you a little Southern Hospitality and if it's ok with you, I would like to add you to my buddy list. There's nothing better than a friend you can argue with and still be friends. I'm not too much on particulars regarding legalities and with opinions stated now what I would really like to read is good, honest, reliable facts, so let's all pull together to help each other produce and sell a good legal product. Sorry Nick, thought maybe the pie needed a little ice cream. Help us to stay legal.

Matt, since Storm copied you, are you and that lawyer of yours after them, especially if he's working for free. You mean to tell me when you were developing your bait you had never heard of the Castaic Bait company or their baits that were selling so well in the western part of the US? If you take your bait, cut slits in the sides, flatten the tail are we not then looking at a very close match to Castaic? Matt you did exactly what I did with the exception that you made your mold and mine was made for me. By far I'm not saying that your bait is Castaic's bait, but on the other hand, my creature bait is not RI's. To me you made 2 basic changes to the bait as far as looks go. I did the same thing. Flat sides and no appendages. Now if what you are defending is after you cast the bait, the way it's fished back and the way that it is presented to the fish I'm sure is very different from Castaic because of the other components that you use that cannot be visually detected. This whole thing was started because of a similar name and a similar bait. I don't think me or you either one is guilty of ripping anybody off. To say that someone has been ripped off, stolen from is definitely and accusation of an illegal act being commited or at least that's the way the law in our country is interpreted. When you continually insist on using these terms then some of us feel that we are continually being accused of breaking the law. Again, the changes that you and I both made or purchased cost us both money, cost us both time and the formula and colors for the plastic had to be developed. My creature bait floats upright when fished because of the flat side and the appendages being gone it presents something totally new to the fish, the main creature that I'm trying to impress, my plastic is much softer,very heavily scented, therefore fish hold onto my bait longer than the name brand. I have proven this time and time again in my own testing and developing of this bait. I didn't produce this bait for money as the bottom line which you stated is the reason for all of this. I did it because a long time customer had exhausted every possible way to buy the name brand product. Really I think there are enough differences in mine and your products to not even refer to them as a generic brand. Take for instance the drug benadryl. This is not the actual name of the drug, the actual name of the drug is used on all generic versions of this medicine, heck even the capsule colors are the same. Should your local pharmacy not offer this legal product to their customers at a more economical price if requested? Free enterprise is just that, free enterprise. If it was me in your shoes, I wouldn't bother my lawyer, I would sit and laugh and say Storm tried but they just couldn't quite make it. Again I understand what your saying about an exact copy and the same name but it's like I said before, when you produce a plastic bait, it's real easy to get on the web or grab a catalog and find very similar baits (Storm, Castaic and RI) but they're not the same. None of us like to be accused of breaking the law and when you say we are ripping people off and stealing, that's what you are saying. It's like I said before if someone was a regular user of Castaic baits and wanted to buy your baits to try because of their regular use of another bait, you are not going to sell them yours? Even though by looks there's only 2 differences, just like my bait. And by looks I feel your bait is a more superior looking bait and I feel there's an are to what you guys do with this type of plastic. Let's just be sure that the pots not calling the kettle black. That's all I am saying. But I am impressed with how you strong you stand on your opinion. It's people that stand strong that make this country great. Keep free enterprise free. This being said this is the last time I will state my opinion on this matter, not putting anyone down, just one redneck's opinion. This one's getting old let's start a new one.

Please remember that there is a large market based on generics in this country. Be it a drug store using its own store brand to sell a popular name brand medicine or a grocery store having its store brand to sell food items and they're certainly not ripping anybody off. The type of baits that you make (which look killer) sell for a premium price, remember people like me deal with items that I'm lucky to get .25 for a piece. To see some large leader in the industry such as Zoom to go after a little guy over a name seems petty. To me the trick worm, finesse worm, senko and floating worm describe a type of worm and not a particular brand anymore. But look at Zoom's record. The tab tail 10 years ago was the shaky tail without the tab. When Zoom discontinued the shaky tail and the guys around here panicked, I don't feel I was wrong by purchasing the mold and making the bait. Even though they came out with it again a couple years later, discontinued it again, and now it's back as the tab tail. How much of that do they own now? The speed worm was discontinued, brought back two years later as the speed worm with the cut in the tail. Now by some miracle the speed worm is back in our area. The one with the slit in the tail was not a very good seller around here. For the 2 years that people couldn't buy the speed worm I had a high demand for a generic product. From what I understand, most production machines in an 8 hour period can produce up to 25,000 pieces. How could one man, hand pouring, ever be a threat to anything like that? And also look at Zoom's colors and their marketing technique. I am sure that pumpkin chartreuse came about by someone not paying proper attention to the heat of the chartreuse coloring. It was marketed in our area when it first came out as a limited one time Zoom color. When you are the king of the hill, things like that are easy to get by with. When you have the money to hire an attorney to write letters, you are fully aware that this will intimidate any small hand pour operation. The best thing that happens to me is when Zoom discontinues a color. As a smart business person, I take full advantage of this. I am still producing a color that they came up with but I still don't feel like I am stealing or ripping off. It's a generic service. To me when you take up for a large company like this so strongly, bottom line, in my opinion, is you tend to support the modern day golden rule and that is the man with all the gold makes all the rules, and that's not America. Don't get me wrong, I respect everything everyone has to say on this subject good and bad and even though making an exact copy and trying to pass it off as the original is definitely wrong, for Zoom to feel threatened by a hand pour operation, I think really says a lot for that hand pour operation. Sorry, but when I feel like the little man is being beaten down, the Southerner in me jumps out. Matt I think your baits look great. Although that type of bait has not really taken off down here yet, I can think of a couple places that the pumpkinseed bluegill would get your arm broke. I appreciate your opinion and hope you kind of get an idea of how the guys that pour one worm at a time four to six inches at a time for .06 a piece feel when such a large company comes down on them. Go Fishing, not fighting.

Matt I see your point of view, and I understand what you are saying totally, but I wonder if you see mine. My customer sought me out to produce the bait, I did not advertise the bait or even offer to make it until after I received the demand, but again it was not an exact copy. There is at least a 20% difference in the bait. You keep using the word stealing. I think this is the term that is upsetting everybody. One side of the bait was completely flat, there were no appendages on the side wings, completely different plastic formula and it came from a mold that was purchased from a company that makes their livelihood from selling molds and other components. My question to you is: Say you have a customer to call whose been buying Castaic Baits products. Although there are a good many similarities they are not your bait. Who modeled after who? If this is a long standing good customer of yours do you not try to fill their request? I didn't steal anything, and I do design my own baits. I specialize in a lot of straight worms, specifically for shaky head fishing. How much more can you do to a straight worm except shorten it, lengthen it, make it fatter, skinnier, or give it a different tail or a different head. And with so many on the market, I would love for someone to come up with something that could be classified as different and new, but I'm afraid no matter what you make or I make, I can sit down with Bass Pro catalog, Cabela's catalog or numerous websites and I guarantee there is always something similar. Not exactly like it, maybe flat sided body, groove sided body, different tail, different head but this is the plastic bait manufacturing life. And in this business, imitation is definitely the highest form of flattery. Notice the word imitation, not exact copy. I'm steadily working everyday in hopes that my company would have the next big thing that everyone wants to copy. The American dream is still alive. Don't want to bump heads but I don't want to feel like I'm stealing because I filled a customers order after he exhausted every possible way of getting the "Name Brand" bait, and by the way, the flat side and much softer plastic makes for a much more superior bait.

Thanks Mo. We are trying to settle on one size bag and have enough small Mom & Pop tackle stores in our area that we're not looking at a bar code at this time. If it was to come up, I guess we could use labels. We are still planning on using our small labels to identify bait style and color, and as far as the other stuff, I appeciate it so much. Now I am learning some of the questions that I need to be asking. That's one of the great things I love about this site. The willingness to help others never ceases to amaze me. Thanks so much.

Thanks guys. I understand about the minimum purchases and the plate setup fees. So far, I have one company, a minimum of 30,000 bags at a price of around .11 per bag. We sat down and figured the cost of printing our labels and buying the bags not including the labor, we still came out cheaper per bag pricewise on the preprinted bags. I understand it's a huge investment all at once, but if you can stand that cost, then it's still cheaper per bag in the long run. The problem is the company has quoted me a 4 or 5 color price, I'm sure our logo (the one we sent) is more than 5 colors. We asked for something showing us what our label would look like, we were told there was no way to do that. For that much money, that I'm willing to invest, there's bound to be somebody out there that can give me a very good idea of what I'm buying before I buy it. Once you buy 30,000-50,000 bags what you've got is what you've got, be it right or wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I need all the big boy information I can get on this one. Any help will be appreciated. carolinamike

Alright guys here's my situation. One of the stores that I supply is a long time customer with a great business, and sells a lot of my baits. He calls me up and asks me if I can make the sweet beaver. This was when the secret of the bait was just being let out and was peaking in popularity. He repeatedly contacted RI (manufacturer of sweet beaver) trying to order and purchase the baits. He also contacted his major distributors and was not able to place an order. He was told that they were so far behind that they could not give him any idea when he could receive their product. LC offered a very similar mold. Should I have not made them? I use a completely different formula of plastic I'm sure. The baits are flat on one side, but are very similar in looks. I agree with Matt completely about the person that comes up with the idea. But then again, if there is a demand for the product and the customer wishing to obtain the product can't purchase it in one way does he not have the right in a free society to try to get the product in another way. From what I understand, as long as there is at least a 20% change in the individual bait, then you are not infringing on anybody's rights. I really don't feel like I was wrong by not turning down my customer on this. I don't even call it a beaver. I classified it as I do all baits like this inlcuding the brush hog and others as a creature bait, just like most small straight worms are called finesse worms. I hope one day that I can come up with a bait that is so popular and catches fish so well that everybody wants to copy it. To me, in the plastic business, this means hey I've made it. Don't mean much, just one redneck's opinion. carolinamike

Does anybody have any suggestions for suppliers of pre-printed bags?

Does anybody weigh their coloring or just use drops? From what I've read, it seems to be drops. I get a much more consistent product by weighing the coloring. Does anyone have any idea of what the shelf life of LC coloring is?

The dental plaster is definitely more expensive. I think my dentist got me a 25 lb box for around $30. It does tend to set up a little faster than POP but if you use too much water it will still set. The trick is to do one mold at a time with either 1 or 2 cavities depending on the size of the bait. I use a plastic Solo cup and pour my molds one at a time. I use nothing to hold my baits to the bottom of my mold pan. So I get the consistency where it will hold down the bait but will still flow smoothly and not create any air pockets. This how I make a flat sided mold. My shop has concrete floors so it's worth the extra expense and time. If these molds are dropped they tend to just chip not shatter like POP does and some of these molds I have been using continuously for 8 years. Mike

You'll find this process time consuming but it's a one time deal. Most of the time it takes me about a week to complete a run of molds. Also noticed on one of the other threads, you ask about artist plaster. Try dental plaster instead. You really have to tap the bubbles out of it and skim the foam off the top before you pour it over your prototype, but I do this no matter what plaster I'm using. I think there's 2 or 3 different formulas that dentists use, mainly for dentures. I use the one that is goldish in color. If you drop these molds on a hard surface they tend to chip instead of shatter like regular plaster. Mike

Okay Senkosam, time to share a secret. You need to go to a store that sells industrial janitorial supplies. You want a clear floor wax that is made for use with a high speed buffer. These are usually polymer based formulas that are made to spread with the heat generated from the high rpms of the buffer. First thing, make sure your mold is completely dry, bone dry, all your trimming is done and the mold is the way you want it as if you are ready to pour your bait. Soak your mold in the wax overnight or for around 12 hours. Make sure it is completely submerged. There will be a lot of small air bubbles escaping from the mold which will kind of foam up on top, this is normal. The mold will be fine as long as it is completely submerged. When you take the mold out, blow off any excess wax. I usually use my breath, but if you wear glasses, make sure you take them off. You could still see some small bubbling on the mold itself. Stay with your mold a little bit, blow the bubbles (if any) off and again let the mold dry till it's completely dry, bone dry. After drying, I set a fan up and I start coating my molds with the wax. I use a Qtip to do this being sure to blow any excess wax out of the cavities of the mold. It's best if you cover the whole top of the mold. Set the mold in front of the fan on high speed with the air blowing directly on the mold. Check the mold after a couple of minutes to make sure that you have had no excess wax to drain in the cavity. If you do, blow it out. Repeat this step 10-15 times. With each coat you will notice that it is taking less and less wax to coat the mold. Use thin coats, you do not want a thick build up. Wait 30-45 minutes between coats, just make sure each coat is good and dry to the touch. I've got plaster molds that are 8 years old that I still use today and the neat thing about it is, the baits come out easily and they are shiny. As the molds heat up from the pouring, the wax adheres better and better and if it ever starts to lose its shine, 1 or 2 thin coats with a Qtip will usually bring back the shine for years. If you need any other info let me know. carolinamike

As far as hooking a tube bait, I pretty well Texas rig mine, hooked in the same fashion as shown in the picture. I found a great rattle for a tube bait. The small round brass or silver Christmas bells makes great rattles for tube baits. Insert them all the way to the head of the tube and then add a small piece of plastic worm to hold the rattle in place. Works great. carolinamike