thanks for the help! i will try a few of the suggestions to see what happens. but on another note! i just ran into a guy at the bank that had a truck load of scrap red wood. waited until he came out asked him what he was going to do with it. he said he was going to the dump so i asked him could i have it he said yes. i gave him my address an today when i came home i had a hole load of red wood. so tonight i will make some blanks for a lip less crank. so that pecan tree will probable go in the bbq. thanks again for wealth of knowledge