Anglinarcher

First, it might help to put this in the soft plastic lure form and not the hard bait forum, but most of us probably visit both anyway. LOL What do you mean, perfecting them? If you mean perfecting the action, that depends on field testing. Finding a group of talented friends to test your lures in the field is a great start. Then, with the field testing results, you need to modify the blank to get the action you need, then make new molds. If you mean perfecting the pour, it depends on what is wrong with the baits. If it is something to do with bubbles, that is one thing, but if you mean you are not getting complete fill, that is another. So, can you perhaps fill in a little more detail about what you need to do to find "perfection"? PS, no bait will ever be perfect, they can all be improved in over time. HEHEHE

kingfish 1, I think you have locked in your mind what we need, but I am not sure I understand completely. Is there a way you can sketch this up and post the sketches? Excellent, this thread atlasstone started just keeps giving!

Actually, the way they had the lures hook up would work just fine. My problem was discovered in my bath tub and also when figure 8 fishing for Muskie. Because my baits hunt a bit, like I actually want them to, when they hunt to the outside of a turn they wash out and head for the surface. If your crankbaits and swimbaits are more stable, the round path might be perfect. But, so you don't waste a lot of money, try a tight turn in your bath tub and see what happens.

A-Mac, I don't think that createx will work. It forms a shell that won't heat set, won't adhere, ........ Spike-It is in the works of making a water based paint for soft plastics, but it is not on the market yet. CarolinaMike had me call Bruce about a different subject and he sent me a small bottle of clear. I am trying to come up with a use for it, but for clear coating a soft plastic, well it makes soft plastic colors POP! Now, back a little, Createx does make just powdered pigments to mix in with their clear bases, so it might work like Alumidust, have not tried it yet.

Is there a cable equivalent?

Mark, I have given some thought to that. Scorpions glow in UV as well, but they have no predators to speak of. As for Crayfish, it is not UV light that you see reflecting from the crawfish, but fluorescent pigments in the shell, just like Scorpions. Is it more likely that it is something used for mating, just like Peacocks?

I just wish to apologize for so many post. I may be an engineer, but my love is fishing. Like Dave says in his signature, "We spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours, making thousands of lures, just 'cos we lost a few in the rocks." I make lures because my fish seem to see commercial lures all the time; if I can make something different, it is like fishing in a fish hatchery until they have seen my lures for some time. I guess that is what happens when we endorse Catch and Release. I was testing lure action at a local fishing dock last week and had an offer for $100 for one of the lures I was testing. Can you believe I would not sell it? If I did, my pro type would be gone. LOL To this date, I have only sold two lures; OK, my daughter sold two of my lures. She asked me for two and she sold them on her web site -- she won't get anymore from me. PS, I think the guy was drunk, no one pays that much money for a lure just because it caught 3 fish in 4 cast when no one else was catching fish. It may very well have just been luck, plain old luck. I too have some ideas, and want to start drawing something up, but to do it I still need to answer the question of how slow the water needs to move to make the lures work. For me, that means I need to get on the water with a stop watch. Just can't seem to do this right now. I am still trying. In the mean time, I post ideas that others have used when I see them. The latest idea I saw at a sports show I was involved in over the last week. Pete, the tank was about 2/3 meter in diameter, about that depth. The only issue I saw was that the tank was made from many flat pieces of glass assembled with silicone into a circular shape. As you saw the lure, it was distorted as the view moved from one plane of glass to the next. It was pretty good at showing how the lure worked, but maybe not for studding the action. A geared motor was installed at the top, mounted to a flat plate. The plate had several wires attached to it. Each wire had a 90 degree bend in it so the wire would extend into the water. At the end of each wire was a swivel attachment for attaching lures. I hope this clears some things up. John, can't wait to see what you have developing in your mind.

Worry not, but to give credit where credit is due, it was atlasstone that started this thread, and a fine thread he created. My mind still thinks the general solution is a version of his fine design.

http://s1151.photobucket.com/user/aka-anglinarcher/media/Circulartank.mp4.html I thought I would post a round tank with a motor and wire assembly used by Macks Lures in Washington State, USA. I can't get it to work on cranks, etc., but for spinners and curly tails, ......... Just showing it to you.

No, you have about summed it up. Numerous studies have been done on many fish species and of the ones that I know of that have been tested, trout and salmon can see some UV, but other then that, only the "Minnows", to include carp, can see UV. The fact is that UV does penetrate water the deepest, but it is not a color that can be seen by most fish. The fact is that UV does excite fluorescent so that they are more visible. The fact is that you cannot add a UV reflector to your paint and actually make it visible to fish, except as noted. For the nay Sayers, they take very small pieces of the fish retinas and expose it to light of different wave lengths. They then check for chemical changes in the samples. If there was a chemical change, then the evidence is clear that the rods and cones were receptive to the wave lengths. So far, they know that the sunfishes see Red through Blue. They know that walleye see mostly red and green, so when you catch them on blue or ...... they are probably seeing it as black. Black is not a color, but a lack of color, while white is not a color, but a combination of all colors. They know that trout and salmon can see near UV through red. They know that the minnow family can see UV through infrared, a very impressive ability. The fact is that NOT ALL fish have been tested, so......... Who knows, if your target it Tarpon, then I don't have a clue. If your target is Marlin, again, I don't have a clue. One more fact, a side note that can mess the entire argument up. I will use Walleye as an example. The peak reactions are at Red and Green, but we all know that Orange and Yellow are between those two colors. Yellow (a primary color) does cause some reaction on the green receptors and orange (a secondary color) does react some on the red side, so in reality walleye do see from green through red, but we must assume that they see a blend of green and yellow or red and yellow like we do. Who knows anything for sure??????

Epoxy can fish eye on lures, so I expect you are getting a fish eye on the POP with the epoxy. Just use a little 400 sandpaper on the small spots and touch up with epoxy again. It should make the tiny dull spots go away.

Thanks for the heads up.

A less then smooth surface is giving your contact area the dull finish. I am not a big POP guy, but as I understand it, you need to seal the POP to close any porosity and provide for that super sooth finish. I have heard of people using anything from Elmer's glue to lacquer to epoxy. Even then, over time the sealing material may need to be touched up. Good luck and I hope this helps some.

What resin are you using? Most of the time moisture, water, in resin causes the resin to expand or foam a little. So, water in resin normally would not sweat out. If it did, the resin would change dimensions. It makes me wonder if the resin is separating because some part of the compound is no longer reacting. Even this does not make sense to me. It might be worth a call to the manufacture. I suspect that sweating a lure with heat would not be a good idea. You would need to know what temperature your resin is stable to. For example, the resin I use gets pretty soft at 140 degrees F. If I heated it, I would need to heat the resin at less then probably 130 degrees F. Then, once you tried it, did the dimensions of the bait stay the same. Tough problem, let us know how it works out.

lurking, secretly lurking. LOL Great progress guys!

http://www.ispikeit.com/Store/p-130-dip-n-glo-lure-dye-neutralizer.aspx I don't think that will stop the bleeding. It is designed to remove the dyes from lures or carpet, etc., but not to keep it from bleeding, at least as far as I understand it.

Ben, I am getting a little gun shy, so don't take this wrong..................Your idea is an excellent one. One of the other videos posted before in this thread, the one that showed the spoons being tested, used a prop. I believe others have discussed this also. I also believe Atlasstone discussed that he had tried the prop as well. In the end, the prop may be the best way, it is hard to say. As hazmail indicated, this is a subject that has been discussed for at least 4 years on this site, longer then I have been a member, and that long, or longer, on other sites that I am also a member of. Some would say that the problem cannot be solved, and then we see the results of Atlasstone's video, and the video I posted of Meps spinners on YouTube, and we start to thinking that IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE. Soooo, what is the best method? First, let's try to decide what WE want. We saw a tank posted that tested flies. The tube used was 3.5" in diameter and the line tie was centered in one end. The flies are not required to move up, down, or side to side, and as such the tank is perfect for them. It should also be noted that in the video, turbulence is causing the fly to move, just like it would in a stream or river. OK, we need a little clarification here. Laminar flow is where the flow of water is smooth, consistent, straight. If a drop of colored water was inserted into a laminar flow of water the drop would move from one end of the tank to the other with little change in size of shape. Turbulence is when the flow is constantly mixing, is not smooth or consistent, and as such the flow within the test area is not straight throughout. If a drop of colored water was inserted into laminar flow, the size and shape of the drop will change quickly and will mix completely into the surrounding water. Cavitation is a different property. Cavitation is caused when the movement of a fluid, in this case water, is sufficiently turbulent, and changing so rapidly, that it creates specific locations that have a vacuum. Water has a boiling temperature of 212 degrees F. at sea level, but when subjected to a large enough vacuum, it will boil at room temperature, creating water vapor or gas instead of liquid water. If I remember correctly, the vacuum is about 30 of head, or in other words, you cannot suck water more then 30 feet vertically without it creating a void, or cavitating. Props tend to create cavitation when they start in a fluid and if they are run too fast. Because of this extreme form of turbulence, it takes a lot longer for the turbulence to even out. Back to the fly test tank. For flies, the test tank they showed is perfect, for their use, in their conditions, ......... I would propose that there is no one solution that will solve all problems. I remember Larry Dahlberg saying he solved the problem by making a tank that was several feet long and several feet wide in his basement. OK, I am married and my wife WILL NOT allow that. I know that Vodkaman has done something similar as well, but he lives where hard water is not a problem, so a basement was not required. For me, I need a bench test tank that I will keep a lure in place so I can view it over a long time, or video it, so I can see what action it has. This way I can make minor changes to the lure and see how it changes it. Because the water is moving, not the lure, but I want the lure to act like it is moving, and not the water, I need laminar flow. I need a tank that is not so big that my wife will keep the tank and kick me to the curb. I need the flow wide enough for my wider swimming swim baits, but can also be deep enough for some of my diving baits. As has been indicated before, if the line tie is above, and at an angle, then I can get away with a fairly shallow tank, but the width must be equal to the max width of my expected bait swim. Clearly this is why Larry Dahlberg went with his tank, he was working on a wide gliding bait. I am not working on anything that wide. But because of the requirement I have, the fly test tank just won't work. Because of the requirement of a laminar flow, a prop is problematic. But, is what I need what everyone else needs? What are YOUR needs? Maybe before we ask Vodkaman to draw this up we need to see if we are on the same sheet of music. Are well all in agreement? I propose that at least the following things need to be agreed upon first. 1) depth? 2) width? 3) laminar or turbulent? 4) range of flow speeds needed? 5) adjustability? 6) overall size limit? 7) other? Please specify Wow, I did not think one misunderstanding would get me into such a need to clarify so much, but I sure don't want anyone to be offended by my comments again. Atlasstone, you are the one to start this thread, and the only one with a working prototype that I know of. Can you chime in on this and comment on what you think we need? Thanks everyone, I think I will go make a bait now.

All is good Pete, the circular versus the "Stadium" concept was due to a comment I made about a device Mack's Lures in Washington State made, and about how a lure that runs in a circular will wash out if it hunts at all. This is not a put down on what you said, just a minor clarification.

I like your sketch concept. I am not sure that I would call it circular, but it does incorporate some great concepts. I like how you incorporated Atlasstone's round ends. I like Dave's concept of the windscreen motor - they are cheep at most salvage yards. I suspect you would need to run the paddle wheel for a little time to get the momentum and therefore velocity up, but that is not a problem.

Actually, with the CC, in the boxes, I would just turn it over for a half an hour, then turn it over again, then again................ do it 4 or 5 times when you first get it and then do it once every month or so after that. Shaking a full container does not work that well, and the boxes have a liner in them so you never get any head space or spare room.

Spike-IT makes several products. Do you mean the Spike-IT dyes, do you mean the Spike-IT markers, or do you mean the Spike-IT pigments? I do know the marker will bleed with some oils, but I have not tried it with the dyes or pigments.

Rowhunter, what primer do you suggest? I use a high hide white and I do just fine, but I am always open to improvements. One thing that I have mentioned before, painting a base coat on a super smooth surface is bad mojo. What I see is Solarez, which leaves a very smooth and very bright finish, that was painted on directly. This is not good, for any paint, but to paint on a plastic surface which does not chemically react, therefore no bond, is a bad deal. nedyarb, I paint on Alumilite White all the time, and if I don't put something on it to make it more receptive to paint, the paint peels right off, just like you got. Solarez and the plastic of Alumilite White are not all that different. I strongly suggest that Solarez makes a great sealer, but all great sealers require additional prep. A little light sanding will allow something for the paint to "grab" on to. Using an adhesion promoter also helps a lot. For example, I often take a rattle can of lacquer or, something like that, and coat my baits before using Createx of similar paint. Lacquer adheres to smooth surfaces much better then just paint and the paint adheres better to lacquer in turn. I don't think any wheel has fallen off the bus, I think that we just need to follow the rules for painting we already knew before. Even the best finish will not excuse poor painting practices.

Thanks Dave, I have an old copy of AutoCAD Light that I can work with, but I have to use the 10 year old back-up computer in the back room. I am sure the program will not work on Windows 8. If I can do it, can your program read .dwg files? I have seen how you can draw, so you could sure clean up my work. The reason I was going to convert is a BAD reason. I hate trolling with a passion, I grew up doing it and I get bored even thinking about it. Nevertheless, in the USA, if you are going to sell lures, you had better be able to troll with them. Most recreational boats troll from about 1 to 4 miles per hour, and most trolling fishermen seem to like to troll at 1.5 to about 2.5 miles per hour. So, if I am going to sell lures, they need to work in that range. A boat does not register speed in inches or meters per second. LOL Personally, I cast and retrieve and the units of inches per second or meters per second are better for me. I just can't mentally convert my comfort zone to the paying customer's comfort zone.

I offer the following from my experience: 1) If your windows are facing the sun and they are open, there is a possibility. If the sun is not directly shining in the window (like it does in northern latitudes at times) then I seriously doubt it. My windows are north facing and I have NO issues with the natural light at all. 2) You must cure the first coat first. If you don't you will never get the bottom coat to cure and it will create haze. 3) UV light is line of site, you must rotate the lure to get proper cure. Light will not "engulf" the lure. If you don't you will get shadow effects on parts of the baits.

Atlasstone, I sure appreciate that you started this thread. You have got a lot of great minds working on this. To all, does anyone know of a good open source or free CAD for computer. I have not updated or used mine in years and I am not going to buy one for the little amount I use it, but I sure wish I had one right now. I think I am just about to a point where I can put all we have learned together and do a common design. Vodkaman, great help. I need to convert the velocity to KM/hour or MPH to compare with normal operating velocities, but that is easy. Your help has been great. There is a reason you are so respected on this site. Great work all, this site deserves credit again.