Zoom going after the "little guys"!!

[Richard Prager]

No need to apologize, No offence taken. In all honesty it saddens me when I see a board full of tallented lure makers who do nothing more than to copy other peoples baits. To make them for your own use is one thing. I do that to, to save a buck but I wouldnt sell them. To me its just not right and I would feel that a failed as a bait maker. Many guys like to justify it buy saying company x makes millions so why not get my litte piece? Because its not right thats why. Many of you cant relate because you have not been lucky enough to have one of your own designs take off. Believe me if you guys do and the "little guys" start ripping you off it will quickly change your perspective. escpecialy if you put in all the legwork and money to get your bait to become a success. I see soo much talent on here I just think guys could do better. I also understand I will be unliked for posting the truth, I cant help it, I just have to call it like I see it.

The way the thread was going did get under my skin a little, I mean the company who is the victim was being made out to be a big mean bully for defending itself.

I wish all of you luck with your buisinesses. I will help any of you if I can as long your selling your own designs.

If it is wrong to copy a bait and sell it, it is just as wrong to copy it for your own use. If copying a protected bait is wrong, then it is wrong, period.

[Patrick]

If it is wrong to copy a bait and sell it, it is just as wrong to copy it for your own use. If copying a protected bait is wrong, then it is wrong, period.

Well said 152nd...I was thinking the exact same thing....

[tubinator]

Your wrong on that. If that was true we would only have one kind of car or truck, one kind of bassboat, one of just about everything you see every day. No diversity, no improvements, no choices!!!!!

[Mattlures]

Swampbaits- There are many things that can be protected and several ways to protect them. It does not have to be the entire package as a whole. I see so much bad info posted on the net about patents ist scary. Most of the stuff you read on here is just plain wrong. Rockhopper was the one guy on hear that knew his stuff. If my lawyer doesnt think he can win we wont sue. Go visit a patent lawyer, you might be suprised.

152 and Patrick If you feel its wrong to make them for your own use then dont make them. You guys have a valid argument. I disagree because when I make something for my self I am not taking money away from the original designer. Why? because I would not have bought the bait. If it was worth it I would have just made my own version but it wasnt worth the efffort. I have a couple Senko molds(got them cheap on ebay). I have poured a bunch of Senko copies but I never use them. I dont like Senkos. Honestly I dont even know why I made them to begin with. I have way too much tackle that I never use.

You have to draw a line somewhere. My line is drawn when it comes to selling the copies. That is my opinion. Your lines might be drawn for making the copies for any reason or you may have no lines at all . I dont beleive that is your positions though. I think you bring that up just to dispute my position. If you realy feel that is wrong then I aplaud you but that is not the case.

I havent made copies for personal use in a long time, probably a couple of years.

AGAIN I SAY THIS. WHEN THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT YOU WILL HAVE A NEW PERSPECTIVE!!!!!! I personaly dont want any of my baits to blow up. It only encourages the copies. If one of you guys makes the next big thing and everybody rushes to rip you off you will no longer disagree with me. Imagine being RI and you put out a new creature bait. You have no idea that it will be a huge success. It is not feesable to patent every sing bait you come out with and you dont know if it will be a hit or not. You put in a ton of your time and money to design and promote your beaver. Something happens and then everybody wants them. This is good right? Only for a little while because now you got the attention of all the knock off guys. Big companies the "little guys" are now reaping the benifits of your hard work. Justify it how ever you need to make it ok in your own mind but if it was your bait that everybody was ripping off you would be fighting mad!

[Mattlures]

Smirkplug obviously your "friend" had issues.

So far I think everybody has handled this very touchy subject suprisingly well. I hope I didnt affend anybody because I was not trying to attack anybody. I am just trying to get some of you to see the other side and other opinions. We all have our own opinions on what wrong and right.

Some guys dont care and all is fair game in buisiness. Money is the only thing that drives them.

[nickcalderone]

Who wants pie and coffee?

[jmik26]

Mattlures - What would happen if Storm sent you a letter telling you not to sell your baits anymore?

[Richard Prager]

I also design and make jewelry. I've had 5 pieces flat out copied by two of my competitors. They just made a rubber mold much in the same way we make copies of baits. I know both of them becuse we have a captive audience and have met up with them in different parts of the country on several occasions. I've confronted each of them once. It made me feel a little better, but not much. Not much else I can do. I have over 200 original pieces and even if I were to copyright them as a collection, there's not much I can do. My sister in law is a copyright attorny and can send a letter. But then what?? I figure what goes around, comes around. Some people tell me I should be flattered and I tell them "flatter this"!! I really don't know where I'm going with this other than to say, "I've been there".

Hey Nick..............I like blueberry!

[tubinator]

AGAIN I SAY THIS. WHEN THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT YOU WILL HAVE A NEW PERSPECTIVE!!!!!!

Been there, Done that!!!Beat the big company trying to shut me down, lost to the ex-employee's that stole my "look" and started producing for that company (I couldn't shut them down)!

It's all up to the Judge anyway, and most of them are asleep at the wheel !

[Senkosam]

Matt, the fact that you copied and then used the bait is illegal and if illegal, immoral. If your going to be a perfectionist, admit having violated your own rule regardless of whether you liked your k/o or not. IMO you didn't set out to make an exact version or even expect to. You wanted to see what the shape could do versus other soft sticks you've used. But by your definition in the strictest sense, you ripped off the inventor for personal use. (It never entered your mind that you could improve the original and market it?)

The Creme design is the oldest plastic worm ever created and look how many versions have been sold over many decades. I'm sure Creme would have liked to have had a monoply on the standard straight tail design, but advances led to more improved designs and plastic qualities that caught on year after year after year with every new modification. The Senko is not on top the hand pourer and customer list for all of the reasons most of us who cast cigar shaped sticks realized after the very first time we used them. Lures are specialty tools that in the right hands fill a specific requirement. Senkos cannot fulfill half the requirements bass anglers need for certain situations. Senkos must be used slower if the horizontal drop is the only presentation required, but if used as a jerk worm, it falls apart after the 10 cast. (One fish per 70 cent worm is not my idea of superior quality and the little and big guys are filling that niche with more durable sticks.) If a super-slow horizontal drop is needed for shallow water, we use less salt or a salt substitute (sugar flakes) to increase density and durability. The shape is not protected; the composition has been changed - what's the problem? Are we thieves? Gene Larew's salted plastic patent ran out years ago and now anyone can include salt including GY.

Stealing? Depends which pew your sitting in.

(Good points Ryan, Clemmy and Mike. Just more valid reasons I can sleep soundly.)

[Mattlures]

jmic26 Storm copied me. My original bluegill were out 2 1/2 years before any of there sunfish type swimbaits were out. There baits are diferent then mine and greatly inferior. Storm also ripped off Castaic but Jason had a patent on that particular design. Guess what, Storm gambled and thought Castaic couldnt do anything about it. Well they were wrong and lost their A$$es in court. Thats one of those lawsuits you never heard about.

Senkosam this time your argument is much better. In your opinion it is unethical, illegal, and wrong to make copies for your own use. Technicaly you are wrong if the bait is not protected like a Senko then it is not illegal. Moraly and ethicaly is up for debate. I dont believe when I make a copy for my own personal use than I have done something wrong. You bring up this point only to dispute my position not because you actualy believe that. Just for the record I havent made or fished any of these in a LOOOONG time but thats almost irelevant.

Here are my thoughts on the subject. I bought a couple molds from Dewl and off of ebay. I did this because I have no desire to improve apon them and I dont fish them enough to warrent my time in designing a better bait. Yes I am also being a little lazy, I simply dont have the time to redesign every single bait I use. In my mind I dont beleive I am doing anything wrong untill I sell these baits whitch I wont .When I buy baits from a store I get the originals.

The plastic worm is one of the grayest areas to debate. I dont know what is black and white. There are so many styles and I am sure many of the original designeres are dead .My cryteria for steeling. ripping off, etc is this.

When sombody tries to copy a bait and sell it they are steeling. When they use a similar name on a similar product for product assosiation they are steeling. I guess it comes down to intent. When everybody is trying to figure out how to make a Basstrix so they can make them and sell them they are steeling from Bruce. Take my minnow for example, it is a completly diferent bait. It looks nothing like a Basstrix. It is made completly diferent than one also but it is a competing product. I could argue that it is an improvemnet but nobody could reasonably argue that I copied them.

Moral and ethical are debateable. You mention the hard head baits as if you invented them. I have been doing that for the last 15 years. To me it was a no brainer, no big deal and nothing to even consider protecting. Of course it was just a hobby then. Thats a whole other issue. Who really came up with the idea?

I'll give you a couple....You can also use a small amount of lint from your dryer to make your worms stronger. Put the lint in where the hook penetrates the worm or mix it thoughout. You can put a couple strands of thread in you Senko molds legth wise and trim them off the ends and you will greatly increase the life of them when wacky rigged. You can also cut stripps of drywall mesh and lay the mesh accross the middle of your molds so the mesh is only in the center, again greatly increasing the life of the Senkos when wacky rigged.

The Senkos can be made softer than usual creating more wiggle because the mesh will make them last longer. Should I patent those ideas? NA you all can have them. They are neat and they do work but making and selling worms is not my thing.

[carolinamike]

Matt, since Storm copied you, are you and that lawyer of yours after them, especially if he's working for free. You mean to tell me when you were developing your bait you had never heard of the Castaic Bait company or their baits that were selling so well in the western part of the US? If you take your bait, cut slits in the sides, flatten the tail are we not then looking at a very close match to Castaic? Matt you did exactly what I did with the exception that you made your mold and mine was made for me. By far I'm not saying that your bait is Castaic's bait, but on the other hand, my creature bait is not RI's. To me you made 2 basic changes to the bait as far as looks go. I did the same thing. Flat sides and no appendages. Now if what you are defending is after you cast the bait, the way it's fished back and the way that it is presented to the fish I'm sure is very different from Castaic because of the other components that you use that cannot be visually detected. This whole thing was started because of a similar name and a similar bait. I don't think me or you either one is guilty of ripping anybody off. To say that someone has been ripped off, stolen from is definitely and accusation of an illegal act being commited or at least that's the way the law in our country is interpreted. When you continually insist on using these terms then some of us feel that we are continually being accused of breaking the law. Again, the changes that you and I both made or purchased cost us both money, cost us both time and the formula and colors for the plastic had to be developed. My creature bait floats upright when fished because of the flat side and the appendages being gone it presents something totally new to the fish, the main creature that I'm trying to impress, my plastic is much softer,very heavily scented, therefore fish hold onto my bait longer than the name brand. I have proven this time and time again in my own testing and developing of this bait. I didn't produce this bait for money as the bottom line which you stated is the reason for all of this. I did it because a long time customer had exhausted every possible way to buy the name brand product. Really I think there are enough differences in mine and your products to not even refer to them as a generic brand. Take for instance the drug benadryl. This is not the actual name of the drug, the actual name of the drug is used on all generic versions of this medicine, heck even the capsule colors are the same. Should your local pharmacy not offer this legal product to their customers at a more economical price if requested? Free enterprise is just that, free enterprise. If it was me in your shoes, I wouldn't bother my lawyer, I would sit and laugh and say Storm tried but they just couldn't quite make it. Again I understand what your saying about an exact copy and the same name but it's like I said before, when you produce a plastic bait, it's real easy to get on the web or grab a catalog and find very similar baits (Storm, Castaic and RI) but they're not the same. None of us like to be accused of breaking the law and when you say we are ripping people off and stealing, that's what you are saying. It's like I said before if someone was a regular user of Castaic baits and wanted to buy your baits to try because of their regular use of another bait, you are not going to sell them yours? Even though by looks there's only 2 differences, just like my bait. And by looks I feel your bait is a more superior looking bait and I feel there's an are to what you guys do with this type of plastic. Let's just be sure that the pots not calling the kettle black. That's all I am saying. But I am impressed with how you strong you stand on your opinion. It's people that stand strong that make this country great. Keep free enterprise free. This being said this is the last time I will state my opinion on this matter, not putting anyone down, just one redneck's opinion. This one's getting old let's start a new one.

[jmik26]

Storm also ripped off Castaic but Jason had a patent on that particular design. Guess what, Storm gambled and thought Castaic couldnt do anything about it. Well they were wrong and lost their A$$es in court. 

Glad to see it works both ways.

[JSC]

Fellows this has been real interesting and hope some of you have gained some good from it. I went thru this back in the mid 60’s with Bill Stembridges “Flip Tail” which was the first radical change from the natural worm design. Bill was smart about it as he not only got a “Design Patent” but also a “Mechanical Patent” on the Lure as well as on the mold. Then he had the name Trade Mark Registered as well as all Copyrights on everything he had. How did I come to find out about all of this .. I had a set of molds made that were close to the flip tail making all the small changes not to be the same. A wholesaler asked me to make him some up with 2 weedless hooks on a harness with a spinner. Which I did when there truck arrived at the warehouse after picking them up from me who was there but Bill Stembridge and his Rep John Wood#### they were unloaded in front of them and Bill hit the ceiling .. seems that he and John had been out for a week and every jobber they saw asked for exactly the same configured lure that I had made. My name for the lure was “Fin Tail”. Less than 2 weeks after this I got a letter from Stembridges Lawyer to stop. The only thing they were complaining about was the tail infringing on the patent … Tom Mann also got a letter at the same time as he had modified all of his 6 and 8 in worm molds (which I had the same molds but did not use .. got them from the same place Tom did) he called his modified version the “Fan Tail” .. after that is when he made his new mold for the “Jelly Worm” that took off so big … Yes we both quit time we got the letters and checked with our attorneys it was a no win situation … For Tom it was one of the best things that happened to him in the Worm business as the “Jelly Worm” took off like “Gang Busters”… Later on I made the First Plastic Shrimp Tail Jig I had a super 1 year but the Big Boys took over after about 2 years … distribution can really get you .. And this brings me around to KO that have been real successful and that was Jim Bagley … in his defense Jim ALL WAYS improved the KO .. he was really successful …

You can’t patent a thing of nature but you can a modification of the thing … so Stembridge had done the right thing with his. There are very few lures today that have not been made in some form or another in years past. The big improvements have been in the materials we have available and the equipment to make them with.

Most of this discussion has really been in a “Gray” area and one has to follow what he thinks is right . By the way that “Hard Head” I made a Flat bottom worm in the 60’s didn’t sell but caught the fish .. It was made from old standard cure plastisol (Cured in the mold) The head was out of a hard mixture and the body and tail was from a soft “Floater” mixture .. molded a weedless hook in … Stood on its nose with that waving tail and was really hard to tear up … the fishing public back then had been introduced to the full round worm (Jelly Worm .. Flip Tail) and did not want any thing to do with a flat bottom worm …. Times change.

Just note to let Yall know that this has been happening long before it happened to Yours truly .. This kind of thing needs to be discussed periodically to clear the air a little.

Lets Go Fishing !!!!! It will be another week before the water gets right here on the Choctawhatchee after the rain we were so bad in need of … For Bass, Red fish or Speckeled Trout ..

[Mattlures]

CarolinaMike you just made my whole point. The kettle calling the pot black. This post originated from guys complaing about a compnay defending its property. A "little guy" was served a letter for steeling zooms property and guys started bashing Zoom!

Now you bring up Castaic. Well the bait you described is the Castaic soft Platinum. All of my current baits (except my newest ones) were out way before the Plats. There is almost no similarities in the two baits. NOBODY would ever mystake one for the other. Neither Jason nor I copied each other when designing those baits. Your example was a weak one. However ther are other Castaic baits that are a little more similar than those. Again I carved my own design. Not trying to copy castaic or storm or any other. I was doing my very best to copy nature. I try to make my baits as lifelike as posible. Never have I sought to make a bait similar to thiers.

I think when Storm had to pay Jason they may have learned to be a little more careful. There sunfish series does not infring on any protection that I have. I would have no case.

Mike I never intended to upset you. I wish you wouldnt be but I wont kiss butt and change my stance. Making a beaver and selling it is moraly and ethicaly wrong. Of couse this is a matter of opinion and I stand behind mine. I dont beleive the flat side is enough change to call the bait anything but a copy. Colors and plastic formulas are extremly minor. If RI would have aplied for a design patent and got one and wanted to sue people for making the flatsided beavers, it is my opinion they would have a verrrrrry strong case. I do not know what form of protection they have but its not very strong. they waited too long.

How about this, when a store askes you to make a copy why not try and sell them one of your original designs?

It is soo much more rewarding when its your bait and you catch fish on it or make a little money off of it. When guys do this with the Senko and Beaver copies, there not using "Thier" baits. Its not thier designs. Its RI or GY designs.

To all of you I hope you take this for what it is. My opinion. You have yours and I have mine. It apears for the most part we will have to agree to disagree.

[Mattlures]

JSC I liked your post. Thank you for the history lesson, seriously.

[nickcalderone]

"Hey Nick..............I like blueberry!:yay:"

Man, this sure is good pie, don't you agree 152nd Street? Need a refill?

[nickcalderone]

And then, there is this...

[Senkosam]

Stealing -

To take (the property of another) without right or permission; to present or use (someone else's words or ideas) as one's own.

By the definition of stealing, you haven't made your point and shouldn't lay that on anyone who modifies significantly a lure and sells it.

Tom Mann's Jelly Worm was significantly different than the Whopper Stopper Flip Tail Worm. Was Mann a thief!?? JSC also modified the worm but was stopped from selling it (would love to see a picture). If his case went to court today, Bill Stembridge wouldn't win.

The consumer's decision to try a k/o and judge whether it is as good or inferior is what make free enterprise work. Monopolies have existed and were broken up because choice had been eliminated (like in the USSR). You say your product is significantly different and in fact superior to your competitors' and at the same time worth the price. That's your opinion - not that of the consumer who in the end decides those things by trial and word-of-mouth. You and Castaic have fine products that catch fish and now Strike King has come out with a product people are using that is quite similar in appearence and action. You can't speak for the consumer on quality and fish catching comparisons the same way you can't comment on Ghost Bait products. YOU DON'T USE OR BUY THEM! To the consumer, quality and usefulness is number one with price close behind. As a consumer, I want all of the above plus service. The Basstrix is on backorder or not available, as was the Beaver. Who's bait do I try? The k/o. If the k/o has the same or better usefulness, my loyalty to the k/o grows and I could care less if the original becomes available.

Classic baits stay around, especially those that have a strong following and are used by new anlgers. I'm sure many of the fine handpourers on this site sell k/o's that are similar and maybe improved, but to accuse them of property theft is going overboard. If the action of your baits is the same as your competitors (a realistic appearance being a very minor thing), then as a consumer, I look at price and durability. It's my right as a comsumer and not your right to take away.

[carolinamike]

Matt, I know I said no more on this subject but by far I don't need my butt kissed and the last thing I am is upset with you. My main concern is that a common business practice in every form of business in the US (generic products) is being referred to as an illegal act (stealing, ripping off, etc). After going back and reading all these threads, man you've kind of been ganged up on and no matter what you stood strong on your opinion and I am very impressed by that. If you ever decide to quit what you do for a living, man you would make a heck of a politician. Me, you, Jim, Sam and the others have brought up so many good and bad points in producing plastic baits. We've all stated our opinions strongly and each of us knows how the others stand. Now let's all turn this thing around and do what I feel like this website is all about. I imagine someone that's just got the idea to start selling their plastic and might have read all this could possibly be scared to death right now. Everybody that has valid legal information, not opinions, but real solid information please give it up. What state, county and city did the legal action against Storm take place in? My wife who is a deputy clerk in the clerk of superior courts office thinks this is probably public record and can be accessed. I would love to know the details. Information like this will keep us all legal. Opinions stated, let's all turn this around and help each other and all other TU viewers to know how we all stand legally. Again, the last thing I am is upset with you. You have taken a very strong stand despite the opposition and you should be commended by all for this. Your products look great and I can tell by your baits you are a skilled craftsman, I would also love to see some of your taxidermy work. If you ever find yourself in NC I would enjoy greatly showing you a little Southern Hospitality and if it's ok with you, I would like to add you to my buddy list. There's nothing better than a friend you can argue with and still be friends. I'm not too much on particulars regarding legalities and with opinions stated now what I would really like to read is good, honest, reliable facts, so let's all pull together to help each other produce and sell a good legal product.

Sorry Nick, thought maybe the pie needed a little ice cream.

Help us to stay legal.

[JSC]

The pleasure was mine to bring up a little “history” .. by the way I left one thing out about the evolution of Tom Mann’s Worms … before the “Jelly Worm” was the “Sting Ray” a little wider tail than the later “Jelly Worm” .. he used the “Sing Ray” name later on mostly on the “Sing Ray Grub” and to the best of my knowledge that was the first “Grub” per say …

Senkosam … thanks for the mention that “Whopper Stopper” later bought the “Flip Tail” and it was passed around some after that … The Blue Lizard was big in parts of the SE at bedding time.

Sorry I do not have a picture of my KO of the fliptail … A guy kept pestering me as to where I got my Plastic and after I quit making the “Fin Tail” I told him if he would buy those molds I would give him the name of a place to buy the Plastic which he agreed to do and in fact did all though later on he wanted to sell it back to me .. when he did that I did not feel to bad about selling them to him as I had told him all about why I wanted to get rid of them … he knew it up front. Fellows back in those days where You got some of this stuff were well kept secrets ….

Lets Go Fishing !!!!!!!

[Senkosam]

Mike, I visited your website and found many near-copies of classic baits )ie. Gator Tail Worm, Uncle Josh Pork Frog, Craw Chunk (generic), Ring Fry, finesse straight tails and Mr. Twister Phenom) as well as a few originals.

Lurecraft sells hundreds of molds that produce mostly discontinued lures that are not restricted for home use or reproduction for sale. Del and Bob sell the T-Stick Mold that produce sticks that are significantly different (and better IMO) than the Senko. The selection of near-copies is huge and the fact that people buy them by the thousands speaks to the fact that anglers respect the differences but consider other factors than who copied who.

We've had our say and opinions will not change. The desire to produce a bait that people love to catch fish on is one of the most satisfying aspects of handpouring - money being less important. I would never claim that any lure I make is the same as an original and as far as I'm concerned, the buyer is the ultimate decider of the merits of my baits.

[Bountiful Waters]

There have been some very interesting points here on both sides of the fence. What I would like to add is this: Many of the "new" ideas and methods have been used for years. All of a sudden, in the age of ESPN, and 24/7 information via the web, a NEW bait hits the market, or NEW way of making a presentation hits. I am not so bold or brazen to think that I am the first who invented a technique or bait design. Guys, fishing has been around a lot longer than any of us. I suppose those who brought a design to market should deserve a pat on the back, but I, in no way, feel that they are the only ones who ever thought of or used it. I am in the process of working on a bait that I do not believe has hit the market, but I am copying off of the good Lord, who made the creature to begin with. I am not trying to turn this into a sermon, but I do not feel we should be so assuming in the "my bait" theory. GY stick baits are a good example. I remember my dad tearing a plastic worm in half and using it like we fish the senko today. He was trying to imitate the exact thing we do with stickbaits now. Was he the first, I seriously doubt it. Did GY improve the idea, absolutley! Matt, I like you, but I cannot get on the stealing bandwagon with ya. There are those on here that have 100 times the ingenuity I have and can put an idea into motion. I applaud you guys and wish you the best. If my design actually catches fish and someone begins to mimic that design, I will feel honored. I say that because this is not my primary form of income. I assume I would feel different if it was. Matt, I think you have done a nice job copying the real deal, probably more so than others, but you are still doing what others are trying to do, just a little better. In a nutshell, we are all copying mother nature with our intent to replicate what fish want and I seriously doubt unless you are older than dirt that a bait design or fishing technique is an origional idea. There are some really good singers, but not all have their own record!

[plt]

right on bountiful waters, i started molding bebe's in my plastics long before another company started this year.

[Richard Prager]

"Hey Nick..............I like blueberry!:yay:"

Man, this sure is good pie, don't you agree 152nd Street? Need a refill?

Certainly will, and another slice of pie, please!