Zoom going after the "little guys"!!

[BCBaits]

I like beer!

[saint308]

Wow, this must be a record. BCBaits, I like beer too. In fact, I think I will have one. Saint.

[longhorn]

I have had several but I still wouldn't think of getting into this conversation

[clemmy]

Just thought I'd lighten everyone up:

From the "There's nothing new to be made in fishing lures" file:

Remember how the hardnosed soft plastic made by Mann's was mentioned a few pages back??

I came accross this on Joe Yates's excellent site and it gave me a laugh, from back when Jim Bagley was still handmaking plugs here in Florida (look at the orange sticker in the top photo

[JSC]

Yep Jim Bagley had a worm that was exactly like Cremes with the exception that the head of the worm was a lot tougher. The "header" in the photo was the "header" for the card. Back then most all baits, except a few hard baits, were carded Dozen packs per card. JSC

[GB GONE]

Wow, this must be a record. BCBaits, I like beer too. In fact, I think I will have one. Saint.

Send me a few guys as I can drink them when I am designing/pouring. You know that time between your 10 hour "real" job, time with your wife and small kids, school trips, cheerleading competitions (no not me, my daughter!!!), church, tournament fishing, and of course bait pouring for others. That would be around 2 am for me as that is the usual time I get in the bed for my nap til 6am. 7 days a week.... I signed up for it so I am not complaining!!

This was a great discussion and there are so many good points!! Zoom does have the right, as any of us do, to protect what they have worked so hard for. Big or small, using their (or any) protected names or designs is wrong (both legally and morally to me). They should protect what is theirs!

My initial post was meant to give anyone a heads up to prevent some pain and suffering but not to infer that Zoom was wrong for going after the "little" guy or the big guy.

OK...how about that beer and some rest!!!

Jim

[Vodkaman]

A marvelous thread.

Mine's a JD, cheers!

[GB GONE]

PS I will also add how important it is to have a person like Matt on our forum!! He is the real deal!!! I would love for him to be able to say "I told you so!" (regarding our designs/products) to many of us that have put our heart and soul into this "hobby".

Thanks Matt for giving us a perspective that we cannot have unless we cross over to your side of the fence as successes in the bait business!!

Jim

[earthworm77]

I'm going to weigh in here. I believe that every true custom lure maker intends to produce a lure that is different from all others. Whether that means those baits he is producing are totally radical in design or similar to other proven baits but his designs include improvements. There are a few people who get involved just to cash in but they don't last long.

I think there is a huge difference in all out blatant stealing in making exact copies compared to modifications. If you are of the opinion that people here are stealing from large companies who have established bait designs regardless of the steps they may take to offer modifications and differences in their bait please consider this.......Nick Creme marketed the first plastic worm in the early 1950's. According to this logic his company should be the only one to legally be able to produce soft plastics? After all, the progression of bait design and the material we use to make them started with him. Whether you mold sticks, swimbaits, grubs or tubes....which are all different, they were spawned by his idea.

I respect the opinions of everyone invloved. Frank, Mike, Jim, Matt, Chris.....everyone. However, it is clear to me that perhaps personal issues are at stake here, I mean Matt, you surely deal with people copying your baits. Frank has as well. I do not think any of the regular posters are the guys looking to cash in on "fad" baits. You may see variations of BassTrix baits, Senko's and Trickworms but I have not seen exact copies.

Let's get serious. Unless your design is the first of its kind and I'm confident this eliminates everyone here from being totally 100% original, are you stealing? I do not agree with this.

I appologize for my rant but but when we as crafters are generalized and put into a catagory of being dishonest, it hits a nerve with me because I take a ton of pride in what I do. Every letter I get about a tournament won or a childs first fish caught on my baits is the reason I keep going. It also bothers me that the comment was made about original baits being superior. The basis of hand pouring is to produce these lures because they are something different. If any of us truly believes that our baits are inferior, then there really is no reason to keep pouring.

[Senkosam]

Good points Craig! What you've stated, I believe is the crux of the matter. Where does pure copying start (and pawned off as the original) and modification or variety end?

Someone selling a fake Omega time piece with guts made in Mexico, is stealing. Someone pirating CDs and DVDs is stealing when they make money by selling copies, but yet taping music off the radio or taping movies from cable tv isn't against the law unless you try to sell those copies.

The law says you can't copy a bait for personal use, which makes no sense since you can legally tape a tv show or music off an FM channel. But if you copy and burn music to give to a friend from a CD you own, I assume it's illegal regardless of the fact that money did no changed hands. This brings up file sharing and the law. It's illegal to share music on line period.

Where does all this leave the handpourer who creates lures for himself or fellow anglers? There are so many shades of ethics, it boggles the mind and the law is vague regarding lures in general. What is meant by an original?

The Creme plastic worm was original, but the law has been interpreted over many years to mean that the thousands of modifications to it were legal because something unique was almost always created. Creme copied nature and no one has legal rights to that original!

[nova]

Definition: "progress":-

Man's ability to complicate the uncomplicated.

The way I see it; if I design something say like "Buzz" the Mouse then it's mine and others should respect that. Sure it's on a basic modified buzzbait frame but the part that really matters is unique to me and it's made in a way that can't be easily copied or mass produced.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not accusing anyone of anything; but what is missing nowadays is respect for others. Big business stealing from the little guy and vise versa.

www.novalures.com

[carolinamike]

A little bit more history for you guys, which I'm sure some of you already know this. When first introduced some people felt the plastic worm was too effective in catching fish. This was before the days of catch and release. It was believed to be so effective that some thought it would deplete the fish population and if I'm not mistaken, there were some attempts to ban it. Can't remember exactly where I read this but how would you like to be the guy that had the bait that was too good? Just a thought.

[earthworm77]

Like I said, where does the line get drawn? Why would a guy who makes his version of a Beaver bait be any different than a guy who makes his own swimbait, tube etc.? Someone aims to make a bait different because they see improvements that could be made. Even with those flat sided Beavers we were all pouring last year, the bait was not a Sweet Beaver. Check out the Lurecraft catalog and you will see 50 6" molds all slightly different. Are they copies of something?

None of us created the wheel. We just try to make it roll more true.

Take a look at the Horny Toad. Great concept but for any of us who really have fished it, it is flawed. The Buzz frog by Bob is a much better bait and again, anyone who has used it can easily note the improvements. This hobby is all about building a better mouse trap.

[Sammy]

You say in your last paragraph that the Zoom Horny Toad is flawed.Could you tell me what that flaw may be.I ask as I have sold approximately 500 bags of these things out of my wife's tackle shop over the past 3 seasons and have not heard 1 complaint or gripe about these things.Lots of repeat customers buying them and Bass tournaments and Chain Pickeral tournaments have been won on these things up here in Nova Scotia.

The only flaw I see is with the company for discontinuing the yellow colored Horny Toad.

Thanks,

Sammy

Like I said, where does the line get drawn? Why would a guy who makes his version of a Beaver bait be any different than a guy who makes his own swimbait, tube etc.? Someone aims to make a bait different because they see improvements that could be made. Even with those flat sided Beavers we were all pouring last year, the bait was not a Sweet Beaver. Check out the Lurecraft catalog and you will see 50 6" molds all slightly different. Are they copies of something?

None of us created the wheel. We just try to make it roll more true.

Take a look at the Horny Toad. Great concept but for any of us who really have fished it, it is flawed. The Buzz frog by Bob is a much better bait and again, anyone who has used it can easily note the improvements. This hobby is all about building a better mouse trap.

[earthworm77]

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, not my intention. Perhaps flawed was a very strong word and I shouldn't have used it. The problem I have with this bait is the durabilty of the legs, which break very easily. I also do not feel they provide maximum water movement. The Bob's Buzz frog features thicker legs with giant paddles. It moves a ton of water and it is durable. Ijust used the H/T as an example of a bait that has been copied to some degree and modified because an improvement was sought. I'm not starting a war. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Sammy]

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, not my intention. Perhaps flawed was a very strong word and I shouldn't have used it. The problem I have with this bait is the durabilty of the legs, which break very easily. I also do not feel they provide maximum water movement. The Bob's Buzz frog features thicker legs with giant paddles. It moves a ton of water and it is durable. Ijust used the H/T as an example of a bait that has been copied to some degree and modified because an improvement was sought. I'm not starting a war. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

You didn't ruffle my feathers at all and I only asked to find out what was up so I can see if any of the customers are having the same problem.

Thanks for the info on the legs.

Sammy

[Tubeman]

So the moral is guys. Make your baits. Learn to design your own and if one takes off RIDE THE WAVE as long as you can and then move on. There are plenty of designs yet to come and I most of us are capable of inventing them.

Matts lures are proof of what hard work and ingenuity can do for you!

So true, no ones going to do it for you...so do it yourself and do it with pride. If you choose to copy, then be smart about it and don't tempt fate. The lure business is NO different than any other, if one of your designs sells then be prepared for copycats. Until then, make your money and enjoy life...and go fishing because that's why we all got into this hobby right !

[Senkosam]

So true, no ones going to do it for you...so do it yourself and do it with pride. If you choose to copy, then be smart about it and don't tempt fate. The lure business is NO different than any other, if one of your designs sells then be prepared for copycats. Until then, make your money and enjoy life...and go fishing because that's why we all got into this hobby right !

So true Mike! Whether you copy/modify or produce and original that was copied by someone else, bait quality and consistency, competitive price, and the service you provide will keep customers coming back. Matt has a quality bait and good service and therefore a loyal customer base that is no different than Yamamoto. Will people still only buy the Senko from GY? Definitedly. Will anglers continue to by EW's sticks at a lower price? Definitely.

Originality doesn't guarentee customer loyalty. Most of my good glitter customers have been buying from me for over 4 years. Is my stuff better or the same as M-F or LC? At least on par quality, but with comparable good service. Many retailers will not even attempt to take orders as long as there is a supply issue, no matter how original or popular the bait -ask Tacklewarehouse.com. This opens the door wide for the competition to sweep in with k/o's. Who said business is supposed to be fair?

BTW, I agree that the tails of the Horny Toad are flimsy and too much salt makes them that way. For a surface bait, I can't see the need for that much salt weighting and I have to reel faster to get the bait to stay near the surface.

The patented design of the tail hooks is great, but I prefer less salt for topwater plastics.

[Delw]

From the org. title of the thread and post. the person selling the baits as a trick worm was wrong and it was bound to happen. zoom isnt going after the little guys in the because they are little they were going after him cause he had a like product with the same name.

Ribbit frogs:

Stanley baits make and awsum frog I have used them for years, are they flawed??? Heck no.

Frank have you ever bought a pack of ribbit frogs? have you ever seen them in real life? I've boughten and used hundreds of packs over the years and I never seen them with salt in them, unless they changed them in the last year.

and for the record the alum molds are cnc machined generally on a cnc mill, not laser cut. if they were laser cut. they probably wouldnt be up for sale and if they were they would be 10x the price.

A cnc machine is like a router so to speak and use's cutting tools/bits. of course they are extreamly accurate rigid and expensive.

most lasers are used for sheet metal parts to cut profiles not for 3d machining. or burning precision holes through a part and etching ( of cource all precision cuts

last time I looked into a laser ( in 2000) it was about 500k for a cheap one and it only would cut through 1/4 inch material.

one of my customers paid a little over 1 million dollars for one we were offered his over flow but declined.

[Richard Prager]

I believe it was Zoom's Horny Toads that the comment about being flawed was made. Although it is a great bait, it IS hit or miss whether the feet will work right.

[Senkosam]

Frank have you ever bought a pack of ribbit frogs? have you ever seen them in real life? I've boughten and used hundreds of packs over the years and I never seen them with salt in them, unless they changed them in the last year.

I don't remember commenting on Stanley frogs. And no, I have never used Stanley frogs and therefore have no opinions concerning them.

Have you used Zoom's Horny Toad? Would love to hear your pros and cons.

[Delw]

I don't remember commenting on Stanley frogs. And no, I have never used Stanley frogs and therefore have no opinions concerning them.

Have you used Zoom's Horny Toad? Would love to hear your pros and cons.

someone mentioned the horny toad then mentioned bobs frog, bobs frog is basically a ribbit frog same type of feet as the ribbit frog. just like my buzz frog. the toad has flat feet and works completely different then the frog.

The buzz frog and the horney toad are entirely 2 different types of frogs, both have a good purpose. I used the toad when I am in thick cover and or when there is rough water the buzz frog I use mainly for a buzz bait trailer or on calm water .

fish both often and year round.

Pros and cons are all in the way you fish a particular lure. the way I use them may be different than others. I do use both with about 4 other frogs 2 of which I designed. frog fishing is fun the toad I also use on a 3/4 to 1oz jig head as well, makes a great jig trailer.

not one of the baits are flawed

[GB GONE]

Here we go guys..... A great friend and fishing buddy called me and said he called Zoom (why could it not have been another company!!) to get some french fry baits in a certain color that works every year on bed bass. They have used this color successfully when nothing else will work. Zoom said "Sorry, the color has been discontinued, have a nice day!"

He is beside himself and has 15 of the baits left.

Should I copy the baits for him in the color that has been discontinued or tell him sorry, you are out of luck!!!!

And the thread goes on...................................

Jim

[Senkosam]

Jim, tell him you'll make a 100 for him in the color he wants, but only if he swears if anybody asks, that he got them from Zoom. Just make sure you don't confirm the sale on TU. LOL!

(oh, and make sure you package them in a freezer bag with your finger prints wiped off and enclose it in a plain brown paper bag.)

[tubinator]

If they have a patent on the bait, then don't make the bait. Why not find or design a bait with the same characteristics, and make that bait the color your friend desires. A 4 inch stick bait in the same color should do the trick.