thill Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I've had problems with hard lead not pouring well at all, so I've gone to ONLY using super-soft lead. (sheet lead) But I've found that because I fish around rocks, my jigs don't do well at all banging around. I believe sheet lead has an additive that makes it even softer than pure lead. It melts at very low temperatures and turns either gold or blue when air hits the molten metal Anyone know anything about this? So I've started adding a bit of the junk hard lead I have around to my mix. Probably about 5% by volume. And the results have been great. The lead still melts at a low temperature, and still pours silky smooth. But now my jigs don't dent nearly as easily, and the paint stays on better. Anyone else have experiences like this? -TH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 The turning color is due to too much heat. I always mix my lead with 1/2 pure lead and 1/2 wheel weights. This will almost eliminate the denting you are having. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basskat Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Nova beat me to the punch, add a few wheel weights and your problem is solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thill Posted February 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Nova and Basskat, When I add even the small amount of hard lead, the lead won't turn blue anymore, even when it gets very hot. It gets kind of a white film over it. But straight sheet lead, even at temperatures that barely melt it, gets a yellow film after a while. Make it just a little hotter, and it turns blue. Is this the tendency of pure lead, or some kind of softening additive? -TH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 What are you using to melt your lead? If it has a thermostat; turn it down. If you pour you lead too hot you can take the temper out of the steel in the hook. This will make the steel brittle. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 When I add even the small amount of hard lead, the lead won't turn blue anymore, even when it gets very hot. It gets kind of a white film over it.But straight sheet lead, even at temperatures that barely melt it, gets a yellow film after a while. Make it just a little hotter, and it turns blue. Is this the tendency of pure lead, or some kind of softening additive? -TH Yes, that's what pure lead does when you heat it up a little too hot. There is no "additive" in soft lead, as a matter of fact, any metal that can be added to lead, will make it harder. You cannot add anything to make lead softer-- anything you add will either make it a little, or a lot, harder. "Pure" lead is soft, and alloyed lead is "hard" lead. Lead can be very sensitive to alloy additions. A very small change in the composition of the lead alloy can change the way it acts, such as not oxidising as readily at higher temperatures-- just as you have noticed. I pour large jigs for use in saltwater, and they take a lot of abuse from rocks. Soft lead won't cut it, so I use straight wheel weight lead. If the mold is gated and vented properly, straight wheelweight lead pours very well. Hope this helps, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thill Posted February 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thank you for your response. Quite interesting! I pour large jigs for use in saltwater, and they take a lot of abuse from rocks. Soft lead won't cut it, so I use straight wheel weight lead. If the mold is gated and vented properly, straight wheelweight lead pours very well. That is the first time I've heard that! Everyone tells me how badly it pours, and I recently got some that wouldn't work even in in my 2-1/2 ounce #9 Shad head molds by Do it. The barbs would never form right, no matter how hot I heated the lead. But it works great for sinkers, so that's what I'm using it for. I wonder if California has a different wheel weight formula? I know that a small amount of tin lowers the melting temperature and makes the lead more "ductable." I thought it might made it softer, too, but I realize that is not the case, after researching it a bit. -TH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Sagacious is right about pouring hard lead for rock infested waters. I use to pour only soft then I went to 50/50. Now I just bought #500 pounds of printers lead for .20/per pound. It is very hard. I have had no problems pouring it straight, into bigger size jigs 1/8 oz and up. I will tell you one thing, it also has a different sound to it then when I use to pour pure soft. Also the sprues are harder to cut, and they are also harder to file. I threw a one ounce weight against a brick wall, and there was no denting in the weight. That's how hard this stuff is. If need be I mix it with my pure soft to get all the smaller size jigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thank you for your response. Quite interesting!That is the first time I've heard that! Everyone tells me how badly it pours, and I recently got some that wouldn't work even in in my 2-1/2 ounce #9 Shad head molds by Do it. The barbs would never form right, no matter how hot I heated the lead. ... In the above case, the problem isn't with the lead. Wheelweight lead should pour those 2-1/2oz jigheads just fine. I've poured an almost infinite number of them-- never have any problems........... honest! That's all I use any more, straight ww lead. Attack the problem this way: First, when pouring larger jigs, you should always warm up those larger jig hooks. Place them somewhere at your pouring setup where they will warm up a bit-- not "hot", just warm them up a bit. This is especially true if you pour during the winter season. Second, vent the mold at the location of the barbs. Just make a slight scratch on one of the mold halves, from the tip of the barb to the edge of the mold. Don't worry, this will not damage your mold in any way. That tiny 'vent' will allow air to escape as lead fills in. Many (most?) molds are not quite perfect as they come from the manufacturer, and need a little tweaking. Doing these things should make those 2-1/2oz jigheads pour without problem. Consider also that your sinker molds may have looser tolerances than your jig molds, and thus may effectively have more venting. If you can pour 2oz sinkers with ww lead, you should be able to pour 2-1/2oz jigs with the same lead, yes? Now, if you said you had problems pouring 1/16 or 1/8oz jigs, I'd say "OK". But you shouldn't have any problems pouring 3/8oz or larger jigs with ww lead, and using good technique. So, the problem likely isn't being caused by that lead, and you should be able to resolve your pouring issues by tweaking your molds and your technique. I wonder if California has a different wheel weight formula? Unlikely, and even if so, it's unlikely to be an issue anyway. Wheelweight alloy varies all over the scale, and has also changed over time. No doubt different manufacturers use different lead formulations for different wheel weight applications. Once a 5gal bucket of ww's gets melted down into ingots, and then mixed again in the pouring pot, the lead alloy gets pretty well mixed up, and differences in exact alloy composition become quite miniscule-- if noticeable at all. I wouldn't get too set in your ways thinking, "Wheelweight lead is too hard, and too difficult to pour!" If it can be melted, I've poured it. I've run into some sticky wickets, but wheel weight lead isn't one of them-- by a long shot. However, each lead alloy behaves a bit differently, and sometimes requires a slightly different technique. Try this: Gradually increase the percentage of wheel weights in your melt-- you'll learn to work with straight ww lead, and soon you'll wonder how you ever had any problems with it. Wheel weight lead actually has a lot of advantages-- it's commonly avaiable, often free, and it was made to be cast into small objects. Finding pure lead can be difficult, and expensive, and it won't hold up to rocks very well at all. While I know some may disagree with me, I've poured literally tons of ww lead, and know of what I speak. However, I suspect there are a lot of folks working with straight ww lead, but not spreading the info on pouring it. So remember, you heard it here first! I know that a small amount of tin lowers the melting temperature and makes the lead more "ductable." I thought it might made it softer, too, but I realize that is not the case, after researching it a bit.-TH Yes you are correct, adding a small amount of tin will usually reduce the surface tension and increase fluidity, and make the lead a little easier to pour. It will also slightly reduce the melting temp, but remember, the melting temp of pure lead is considerably higher than ww lead, so that may be of limited benefit. Adding a little tin can help pouring in difficult molds sometimes, and I used to add a very small amount of tin myself on occasion, but it's not mandatory and you may eventually choose to skip the tin and save that cash for something else. It's one of those little tricks to save for a day when things just ain't a-goin right. Hope this helps. Good luck, and be safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedHed Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 TH Ditto with Sagacious – very sound advice on wheel weights. If you are using a bottom pour – hopefully a 4-20 or larger – try holding the sprue hole of the mold up to the spout of the pot. Tilt the mold when you start your pour. Depending on your flow – do a 1 – 2 count then slowly lower and even your mold while you still pour. Don’t leave the mold in contact with the spout and stop the flow. Got lucky - have the SH9-3-LA and it pours fine with out venting (BTW - venting is the quickest fix). Don’t think any two molds are exactly alike so one can’t expect them all to pour the same. Could be pouring technique – what is used to pour with – lot of factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldwillie65 Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Great information:) Thanks Alot, Oldwillie65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 For basic lead casting its good to have three types kept separate: 1.soft lead(scratches with fingernail and doesn't ring when dropped on concrete) 2. hard lead(wheel weights) 3. tin(solder or babbit usually) . Specialty alloys like very hard print type metal are a separate and uncommon category. Wheel weights are cheap and available so I try to use that as much as possible. For castings that won't pour well with wheel weights I'll mix in increasing amounts of soft lead until incomplete fills aren't a problem. Writing down proportions helps and home alloy makers can use ratios of soft-hard like 1-1(50%-50%) or 3-1(75%soft 25%hard). For example just in my In-Line Sinker mold I use 100%WW 1-1/2oz., (1-1) 1oz., and (3-1) 3/4 & 1/2 oz. Tin I mostly use in a 24-1 soft lead-tin proportion for small jig heads which is AKA 4% tinned lead alloy. The tin slightly toughens the lead but mostly adds corrosion resistance to inhibit dull gray soft lead oxidation without significantly affecting the easy pouring quality of soft lead. As mentioned by others expensive tin is not necessary in a hard lead alloy unless in a special situation for easier pouring or adding some shine to the finish. Tip for beginners: tapered barb collars are way easier to pour than spike barb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldwillie65 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Hi Hawnjigs, Thank you for the added information. All of you folks have helped me alot and saved me lots of time & waste:yay:. Oldwillie65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thill Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 THANK YOU for the great responses! I should note that I am not refering to wheel weight lead, but an alloy of unknown origin. I don't know WHAT this stuff is. I was just passing on what I "heard" about WW lead! I'm doing/have done all of these things already, but it's good to have confirmation! This stuff I speak of will not even form the collar on the big jigs. But because of what you write, I'm definitely going to give WW lead a shot! Something I found interesting, is that adding tin doesn't reduce the melting temp a little, it reduces it a LOT! Tin melts at 447.8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hmm, unknown alloy, acts like hard lead with incomplete cavity fill. But then again, even pure lead-tin solder doesn't fill well despite a low melting point. Don't see much anymore, but vehicle shops guys used to recycle battery lead I guess from heavier industrial batteries since car batteries hardly have any useable lead. With a 9-1 lead-antimony alloy that would be a tough pour indeed. One way to tell is antimony lead hardens grainy and tin lead with a smooth shiny finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Maxwell Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Thill, Where did you get the melting temp. figures??? If lead melts at 620 and tin melts @ 447, How can the combination of the 2 melt at 361, a significantly lower temp??? Not saying it doesn't, but doesn't sound right to me. Maybe some other stuff in the solder too???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I think the melting effects of metal combinations was invented by some bored university professor, in order to make life difficult for his students. This was a really tedious subject for me, I never really got my head around it. Tooo many long words. I just found this diagram that may help you predict what a mixture will do, but it does not explain why, but who cares anyway. The phase diagram Constructing the phase diagram You start from data obtained from the cooling curves. You draw a graph of the temperature at which freezing first starts against the proportion of tin and lead in the mixture. The only unusual thing is that you draw the temperature scale at each end of the diagram instead of only at the left-hand side. Notice that at the left-hand side and right-hand sides of the curves you have the freezing points (melting points) of the pure lead and tin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Good job! Vodkaman beat me to the punch with the lead/tin phase diagram. As shown, it takes a lot of tin to reduce the melting point of the alloy-- about 40%. A little bit of tin will reduce the melting temp, well, a little bit. Thill' date='Where did you get the melting temp. figures??? If lead melts at 620 and tin melts @ 447, How can the combination of the 2 melt at 361, a significantly lower temp??? ...[/quote'] This is a normal characteristic of many alloys-- no need to add anything else to the lead/tin solder. Think of it this way: Add salt to ice, and the ice now melts at a lower temp than it normally does. Same with metal. Add tin to lead, and now the lead/tin alloy melts at a lower temperature. ... I should note that I am not refering to wheel weight lead, but an alloy of unknown origin. I don't know WHAT this stuff is. ... Be careful with unknown lead alloys. Some contaminants can really louse-up the pourability of lead, or cause it to have large shrinkage cavities, etc. Occasionally those contaminants cannot be removed by fluxing or be easily negated by dilution. Treat unkown/unproven lead alloys with caution: Melt some and do a few test pours before you drop it in with a bunch of your "good" lead. As Hawnjigs noted, it's good practice to keep your different types of lead alloys seperate. Hope this helps, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Wow, great diagram, Vodkaman! And with 3 metals you can make an alloy that will melt at 158* F or in way less than boiling hot water. I don't mess with that stuff since having a highly toxic metal that will melt in a cuppa coffee is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS to have around. Totally agree with "sagacious" unknown hard to pour alloys might best be used in sinkers without wasting good soft lead to try to improve them. By the way, possible contaminants could include dangerous arsenic and cadmium, as if lead isn't toxic enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 OK, here's another no-no learned the hard way. If you have a big lot of assorted scrap lead don't just throw em all in a big pot together unless you're sure of what they are. One time I ruined a full pot of melt because one chunk contained some powdered metal that turned the whole pot into sludge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerer Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 One small tip that can help some times is to keep stirring the pot every so often. With a difficult mold I may stir every 4 or 5 pours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Guys I am really enjoying this thread I have poured jigs and spinner baits off and on for more years than I care to mention and I only wish I could have had some of this information way back when ... fact is I have a couple of buckets of lead (??) that I will seperate out first chance I get .. A lot of the problems I have had were explained here .. in the past we had just worked thru them .... Thanx a lot .. wish I could add to this but .. this has been a real "Learner" for me. JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 This subject has come up so many times, I thought, "here we go again". I was so wrong! It must be a full moon or something, as a plethora of information has emerged. It just goes to show that re-visiting the old questions once in a while, does bring forth new information worth reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedHed Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Absolutely top notch postings, no BS, the way it’s supposed to be… Very informative and educational – thnx TU members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thill Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Guys, this really IS a great, informative thread! One way to tell is antimony lead hardens grainy YES! VERY grainy! This stuff is actually "crackles" when you try to bend a sprue off. It forms crystals that you can actually see. It is not shiny, it's more "white." Be careful with unknown lead alloys. Some contaminants can really louse-up the pourability of lead... Occasionally those contaminants cannot be.... easily negated by dilution. You know what you are talking about, Sagacious, and you really hit it on the head! Just a LITTLE bit of this stuff will harden up an entire pot of soft lead. A little more, and the lead is ruined, and is only good for egg sinkers. Here is anoter question to throw out there... What kind of lead alloy is shiny, but floats to the top of the pot, kind of thick, almost exactly like butter? Stirring will not mix it back in, and it does not pour or form, so I end up skimming it off. Once it hardens, it looks just like regular lead. I think it came from a batch of lead wire... -TH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
