Lead replacement?

[Fernet]

Hello, Thanks to all the knowledgeable posters making this an excellent forum.

I am about to take my tacklemaking to the next step and start pouring among other things. When reading about lead made me realize that it has some bad habits of killing innocent birds and fishes. Cant have that.

Has anyone had any success in experimenting with some more environmentally friendly alternatives? Best I can think of is to take some small )pieces of wolfram(tungsten) and press those pieces down in the chambers of the mold and then top with zink. Should be heavy enough if it would work and weight should be evenly distributed. What do you think, own id

[Ogajiga]

I've been pouring bismuth and tin jig heads for about 4 years. Suggest you do some research to familiarize yourself with these metals' properties easily found online. Here is a link to the best price supplier I know of in the USA.

http://www.rotometals.com/Base-Metals-in-Ingot_c_36.html

[Vodkaman]

Welcome to TU Anders.

This has been discussed a few times in the last couple of months. If you use the search function and type in a few choice words like tungsten, zinc (zink) , metal etc. This reading will let you catch up to were we are.

My thoughts are that it seems pointless going to the trouble of messing around with zinc if you are already using the tungsten powder. Why not bind the tungsten with resin or epoxy, in a suitable shaped mold.

Tungsten is a great idea. It is an advantage to keep the volume of the ballast as small and concentrated as possible and green issues always deserve a frequent airing.

[Ogajiga]

Anders, after you've done the research feel free to ask questions about bismuth & tin pouring. I learned the hard way but am willing to share with others.

[Fernet]

Alright. Bismuth and tin it is.

I would greatfully accept any advice you hawnjigs or anyone else may have on this subject. I cant specifically say what i want to know as my own melting and pouring experiences are limited to a test run with lead yesterday and what i have been reading up on the last month. Meaby whats the best alloys, mold temp, mold type(do-it alu works fine?), pour temp, powder paint compability(!?), the thing you found out the hard way etc, etc.

Thanks,

Anders

[Spike-A-Pike]

hawnjigs,

Are you getting your Bismuth Tin Alloy from American Elements under the tradename AE Alloys or is there a better source?

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[dlaery]

I use to pour a mix of 60% Bismuth and 40% Tin and it would melt at 240 degrees, no powder painting those.

[pirkfan]

I use lead free tin solder (scored about 25 lbs from the auction site at a somewhat reasonable price). It fills molds well, and stays shiny....but I also use lead for the really big stuff, tin's just way too expensive. No problems with do-it or collins molds so far. It only weighs 70% of an equal volume of lead, so adjust accordingly

[Ogajiga]

Spike-a-Pike, never tried AE, used to supply tin & bismuth from Atlantic Metals, but I think Rotometals has the best prices now. I've tried a lot of BiSn(bismuth tin) alloys from 90-10 to 50-50 and all pour fine into Do-it molds. Higher bismuth for heavier weight and higher tin for less brittleness and shinier finish. Although nicely heavy at 85% of lead pure bismuth is too brittle for my liking, but pure tin makes beautiful shiny castings weighing 63% as much as lead. As Mr. Aery pointed out alloys can have a very low melting point far below the pure metals Bi 520*F and Sn 450*F. Generally, BiSn sprues are too hard to bend and twist off like lead so I use heavy gate cutters to forcefully snap them off or drop them onto the sprue with sufficient force into a steel pot to snap them off. Its necessary to find the method that minimizes pitting into the casting on the break which will vary for different molds and alloys. Anders, I would suggest as a starting point you try Mr. Aery's Bi60 Sn40 which is 3 parts Bi to 2 parts Sn and try pouring some jig heads or sinkers 1/4 oz. or less. The working temp of this alloy would be around 400*F or possibly less and be easy to pour. Pure tin at a higher temp around 600*F would also be worth a try. Solder would make some beautiful shiny Pirks indeed.

Edited April 10, 2008 by hawnjigs

[Fernet]

Thanks for reply's.

The low melting point is a bummer. I've just got my brand new powder setup from TJ's and it's the good stuff. So, here's an idea I have: I read that Bismuth boils at 1564°C(2847°F) and tin at as heigh as 2602°C(4716°F). Meaby one could heat the BisTin alloy to 1000'ish°C(circa 1832°F) and toss a piece of copper in there. The copper would blend out, making it a new alloy which would have a melt temp at 280°C(536°F). Copper got a nice weight and is environmentally ok. Could it work?

[Ogajiga]

Anders, if you need to powder paint, try Bi90 Sn10. This alloy will be more brittle than 60-40 but should be OK to carefully powder paint at around 400*F. Any higher tin alloy wll be more risky. On the other hand, pure tin with a MP of 450*F has a good safety margin against melt down with controlled heating. The main difference between the two suggestions would be the the weight factor Bi90 Sn10 83% lead and pure Sn 63%. I have never tried copper in any of my casting alloys, and "Sagacious" has posted that copper contamination of lead makes it tougher to pour. But, lead free casting alloys with additional metals besides bismuth & tin is certainly under researched, and you might discover something.

By the way, pure tin sprues can be easily twisted off like lead.

Edited April 10, 2008 by hawnjigs

[Fatman]

This is a reply I got back from a company that does Bismuth/Tin and has since switched from that. Hope it helps explain a few things.

Bismuth /tin alloys if made from a powder-contain both lead and cadmium

(toxic) materials in the binding processes. The companies will list them as

"lead-free" but it is in there, and if you obtain the formulas they use to

create the alloys, you'll see it for yourself. Your clue will always be an

odd ingot size: e.g. 1.24 lb ingot (not 1.0lb, nor 1.25lb but 1.24lb)- whicjh

makes it very difficult to identify the toxic metals used.

You'll want to stick with companies that use ingots, not powdered metals, to produce the alloy you desire (lessons learned). You would want to use the 58/42 ratio for a better casting. However over the past five years the use of Bismuth has now become a "buzz" (Iremember when you had to explain this for over an hour to people) and the price has gone through the roof; and is still on a weekly, sometimes daily, increase.

We've been a non-lead alternative caster for over five years now- and I don't even want to mess with Bismuth anymore. The only "good" thing left about it - do to pricing-is that it has 95% of lead's density. We have been using an excellent casting alloy called R-92; 92% tin and 8% antimony. It has excellent casting fluidity, a low melting point (466 degrees); however it has approx. a 65-70% density of lead. So you have to specify the SIZE of the mold, not the WEIGHT. R-92 has about 1/3 the price of bismuth/tin alloys (10.00lb compared to 30.00 plus lb) If you want a bit of "hammer-ability to your molds, use A/C (90%tin,8%antimony,2% copper) this has malabilty.

The plus to a weight conscious angler is you can produce a larger head size (presentation) at the weight of a smaller one. But, just like bismuth years ago, people are slow to respond. Habits are hard to change (which is why they say you should make good ones in the first place); and people associate size with weight. You'll even find this with bismuth, but at a lessor scale.

We make a 1/24th ballhead with sunken side eye holes, that once its painted you'd swear it is a 1/8 or better; but it's not! I had to start putting a picture of the head on the packaging to demonstrate.

There are a lot of American Alloy companies that you can "play" off each

other to knock off a few pennies a pound; but we recommend contacting

ROTOMETALS, Inc out of San Francisco. Very reputable, nice folks, good

prices and they'll custom-make your alloy. Meaning you can decide if you

want 58 bismuth/42 tin OR 62 tin/38 bismuth or whatever. They'll make the ingots the size of your melter/furnace (no extra charge) and they can usually ship within 24-48 hours. They are on the web or try 1.866.768.6638. They are good people in a cut-throat business

(but what isn't anymore?). Hope this was of some help to you. We wish you the best in your endeavours and feel free to stay in touch anytime.

Fatman

[sagacious]

Thanks for reply's.

The low melting point is a bummer. I've just got my brand new powder setup from TJ's and it's the good stuff. So, here's an idea I have: I read that Bismuth boils at 1564°C(2847°F) and tin at as heigh as 2602°C(4716°F). Meaby one could heat the BisTin alloy to 1000'ish°C(circa 1832°F) and toss a piece of copper in there. The copper would blend out, making it a new alloy which would have a melt temp at 280°C(536°F). Copper got a nice weight and is environmentally ok. Could it work?

Yes, it's possible. Would it work for jigs....... possibly, but probably not. There are some serious snags to contend with.

Maybe Hawnjigs can futher expound further on this facet, but my experience is that bismuth alloys suffer severe oxidation-- and metal loss-- at very high temperatures. Tin behaves similarly. So, unfortunately, you cannot easily work with these metals at very high temps, or anything vaguely approaching their boiling point, without doing so in an inert atmosphere. Not practical. An analogy, with apologies to any cooks, might go something like this, "Pumpkin bread will boil at 1600*F, so I can heat the bread to 1400*F, and add more spice." You'll end up with carbon and other things, but it won't really be useable as bread anymore.

The addition of copper to a bismuth/tin alloy would produce (maybe) something like brittania metal, which is 93% tin, 5% antimony, 2% copper. It is usually pressure or centrifugally cast. I'm not absolutely sure what the substitution of bismuth for antimony would do (probably not something good), but you might end up with something like that. Unfortunately, it won't likely pour as well as we're used to lead pouring.

I have used alloys like 90-95% tin, and 5-10% copper to make 'white bronze'. You will waste a whole lot of tin while you learn to work with these alloys. The correct method of mixing the alloy is to heat the copper to the melting point, or just barely melting, and then add the tin. The tin will aggressively react with, and dissolve, the partly molten copper and form your alloy. While it reacts, it sort of looks like the tin is acid, because it looks like it's 'eating' the copper. Fun to watch.

Unfortunately (by now you may have expected this...) the resulting alloy is exceedingly brittle. If dropped it will actually shatter like glass. It's weird stuff. I'll bet you could chip an arrowhead out of it. Not a good candidate alloy for jigs.

Hope this helps, good luck!

Edited April 10, 2008 by sagacious

[Ogajiga]

First of all, my best respects to those that are casting green. Yes, I too noticed that over heating bismuth, tin, or even lead will form excessive oxides aka slag. Still, I don't want to discourage anyone from discovering a better lead free alloy. I've tried to make tin "pewter" substituting 3-10% bismuth for antimony as a hardening agent, and all alloys were unsuitable for gravity pouring small round heads due to incomplete fill out, although larger size other styles managed with difficulty. R-92 would be a very hard nicely finishing lead free casting alloy, although as "Sagacious" mentions that alloy might be more suitable for pressure casting. "Fatman", are you gravity pouring R-92?

Prices of all casting metals continues to rise - $10 tin is history, unless you buy low grade slabs.

Edited April 10, 2008 by hawnjigs

[sagacious]

I couldn't agree more-- kudos to those who are working with less toxic metals, and those who are exploring the possibilities.

Let this discussion assist you in your endeavors. Let the successes and failures detailed above provide a framework for your efforts, and keep working toward what you want. I see a whole new world of lures cast from zinc alloys on the horizon. That might be an avenue for some here to explore.

On the flip-side, can you believe that here in California, I found a chain-store with a bunch of cadmium sinkers on the racks? Crazy! Advertised as "cadmium sinkers"! I couldn't quite believe it, so I bought some to see for sure. Yup, cadmium. Pretty poisonous stuff. In this case, not a good replacement for lead!

[Fatman]

Hawnjigs,

Not doing anything yet with R92!! Trying to find the best replacement for my lead, and not liking the cost. I like the idea of the 60 bis/40 tin but I don't like the fact that it doesn't weigh the same as the lead.

I've read on here where someone was using lead free pewter, but according to Lee (Production Pot) they recommend that you don't use that in their pot.

Right now I can use lead jigs, sinkers 1/2 oz and over. Split shot, small sinkers have to be non-lead. I'd like to go green so that no matter where I go I can carry one box of tackle and not worry about it.

Fatman

[Ogajiga]

"Fatman", as I suggested to "Fernet", Bi90 Sn10 probably has a high enough melting temp to be powder paintable and at 83% lead weight will not feel noticeably different from lead in use. Pure tin is also Do-it-able and the 63% lead weight is actually an advantage for shallow, slow falling, or slow running presentations. I can't figure why either metal couldn't be used in a Lee pot, perhaps you can contact the mfg.? I personally find BiSn to be user friendly and no problem pouring with my pot & ladle setup, and I can lower my propane burner temp down to 350-400*F to cast low melt 60-40. I realize if you're new to lead free, the metals prices come as a shock, but consider that a lb. of metal at $20 a lb. will cast around 150 BiSn 1/8 Do-its or $.14 each. Cut that price in half for 1/16 and you can see that lead free metals cost ain't bad when considered as cost per casting. However, 1/4 & up does get kinda expensive compared to lead, but it shouldn't break your bank(I hope!). According to "Sagacious" tin/antimony pewters like R-92 are a tough pour with a gravity casting setup, and I believe I saved some time & $ following his advice to avoid them.

[Ogajiga]

A bit off topic, but did some research on cadmium toxicity. We all know that lead is a cumulative poison and at some point can cause serious health issues. Cadmium, on the other hand, fumes can cause sufficient irritation of lung tissues to cause fatal respiratory failure. Yes its amazing that someone was desperate enough to make sinkers out of it and and a store actually offered them for sale. Where were they made?

"Sagacious", or anyone else, have you tried any zinc casting or alloying? I once found a sinker on a reservoir shoreline that was seriously "rotting" apart that I think might have been zinc.

[dlaery]

I have spin cast a zinc alloy that has alum and copper. I don't remember the percent, but I think it is 15% alum and 15% copper. I cast it about 850 degrees. It pours similiar to lead but it has a lot more energy. It will keep burning if it splashes on your arm. It seems to take a lot longer to get it to temp. It is hard on silicone molds with the extra heat. I don't think is is toxic but I really don't know.

I noticed in an earilier post that someone mentioned antimony. I think antimony is toxic, but I don't know about fumes or if it is just ingestion that is toxic like lead. I mix it with my scrap lead to make it harder.

I forgot to mention that mixing zinc and lead is a no no. It will ruin the batch. It just makes a slurry mix.

Edited April 12, 2008 by dlaery

[sagacious]

A bit off topic, but did some research on cadmium toxicity. We all know that lead is a cumulative poison and at some point can cause serious health issues. Cadmium, on the other hand, fumes can cause sufficient irritation of lung tissues to cause fatal respiratory failure. Yes its amazing that someone was desperate enough to make sinkers out of it and and a store actually offered them for sale. Where were they made?

Unfortunately, I don't recall where they were made. They were packaged in a plastic bag with a paper hanger stapled on top, with the words CADMIUM SINKERS in bold print. No idea what someone was thinking with that one...

"Sagacious", or anyone else, have you tried any zinc casting or alloying? I once found a sinker on a reservoir shoreline that was seriously "rotting" apart that I think might have been zinc.

I have poured pure zinc and some zinc alloys. Zinc will dissolve copper far below the melting point of copper, so if you stir the melt with a clean copper rod, it'll get thinner, and thinner.

Back when these metals were cheap, a good source for 'pure' zinc was large boat anodes, or "zincs". They could be purchased inexpensively at boat yards. It is actually fairly pure, since ppm concentrations of some metal contaminants will prevent proper function of the sacrificial anode. Some anodes are designed to retain their streamlined shape-- even as they waste-away-- and those will not work for melting/pouring. 'Plate' zincs (but in a variety of shapes) are just pure zinc, and those are fine for casting. Once a zinc anode wears down to a certain point, it needs to be replaced, and you can often find old zincs at a large marina, or a local shop that replaces anodes. Free zinc, not bad! Old zinc anodes of the type that won't work for casting are easily distinguished by being very light for their size...... plus they won't melt anyway.

You can also sometimes find ballast tank anodes at marina boat shops, which are a good source of a large quantity of zinc. Fuel tank zincs and round 'oil tanker' zincs can also sometimes be purchased cheaply, or gotten for free. Almost anything that's metal and needs to be protected from corrosion may offer-up a source for old zinc anodes.

"Boat zinc" is pure blue-white, and very crystalline, but pretty tough. No shatter problems. As Dleary said above, the burn hazard is much greater than lead, so common-sense precautions must be taken. Mold preheat is correspondingly more critical than with lead, but small gravity pours go very well. Painting or powdercoating should provide an excellent corrosion barrier for pure zinc, and some of the other zinc alloys are very corrosion resistant. I think there's a lot of room for experimentation and novel applications of zinc alloys within the field of tacklemaking. Hard to beat the 'environmentally friendly' aspect of zinc.

[Ogajiga]

While perhaps less toxic than lead, this is what "wikipedia.org" has to say about zinc toxicity:

"Even though zinc is an essential requirement for a healthy body, too much zinc can be harmful. Excessive absorption of zinc can also suppress copper and iron absorption. The free zinc ion in solution is highly toxic to plants, invertebrates, and even vertebrate fish. The Free Ion Activity Model (FIAM) is well-established in the literature, and shows that just micromolar amounts of the free ion kills some organisms. A recent example showed 6 micromolar killing 93% of all daphnia in water.[28]

The free zinc ion is also a powerful Lewis acid up to the point of being corrosive. Stomach acid contains hydrochloric acid, in which metallic zinc dissolves readily to give corrosive zinc chloride. Swallowing a post 1982 American one cent piece (97.5% zinc) can cause damage to the stomach lining due to the high solubility of the zinc ion in the acidic stomach.[29] Zinc toxicity, mostly in the form of the ingestion of US pennies minted after 1982, is commonly fatal in dogs where it causes a severe hemolytic anemia.[30] In pet parrots zinc is highly toxic and poisoning can often be fatal."

[sagacious]

Best not to eat too many pennies. Since it's used in children's sunbock and supplemental vitamins for pregnant women and toddlers, it can't be too noxious. Since zinc corrodes fairly rapidly, it doesn't linger in the environment, and thus poses less risk for accidental ingestion in waterfowl. Note that zinc-plated shot is currently legal to shoot in non-lead hunting zones.

But yes, absolutely all metals are toxic at a certain level, or chemical combination. Iron poisoning kills children every year, but you'd hardly consider iron a toxic or dangerous metal. Iron poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look out, they'll ban steel hooks next!

[Glaucus]

I can't figure why either metal couldn't be used in a Lee pot, perhaps you can contact the mfg.?

Supposedly tin will

[dlaery]

Supposedly tin will

[Ogajiga]

Also not wanting to contradict anyone, but my cast iron pot for lead free has gotten major mileage and the inside which directly contacts the tin/bismuth still looks smooth and intact. The outside looks like an orange peel from all the rust pitting caused I believe by the humidity here. Then again the steel lining in bottom pour melters appears to be thin and perhaps easily compromised by any corrosion. Mr. Aery, thanks for providing precise working temps of BiSn 60/40. Would like to point out to those newly condsidering lead free casting that IMO there is no noticeable difference in use between BiSn 60/40 and the recommended 58/42 except a 3 to 2 mix is a lot easier to weigh and alloy.