Supreme Court- Gun rights case

[Brian_Va]

For the first time in our personal lives we will see a very historical case go before the courts. Do we have the right to keep and bear arms on a personal level? Judges will decide if "we the people" have any right to own and possess a gun.

In a way this is laughable, but it's serious because we have already had one full scale revolt over this and money. I'm fairly certain our forefathers did intend for the average American to keep and bear arms, as their public and private documents on the matter repeat this sentiment over an over. And if they didn't, I'd think we would know by now. If they didn't, and the courts decide it's time for you to turn in your guns, whats next?

AFP: US Supreme Court in historic hearing on gun laws

The Associated Press: Supreme Court Gun Case Draws Protesters

[Spike-A-Pike]

It may be time for a Firearm Refresher Course... I'll try hard to stay off the soapbox for now.

[fish devil]

Laws are for those who are decent law abiding citizens. Criminals will always have guns or have means to get guns no matter what laws the govt makes.

Personally I think more people should have firearms.

[dvowell]

I'm with you, fish devil. Completely.

-D

[LaPala]

Best case scenario --- no one in this world produces fire arms anymore. Got a score to settle --- use your fist, knives, bow & arrow and spears. You can still hunt with a bow. IMHO, we are already too advance with development of fire arms when we can inflict a lot of damage without any training.

[Spike-A-Pike]

Some food for thought...

FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE

1. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

2. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

3. Colt: The original point and click interface.

4. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

5. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords?

6. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words.

7. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.

8. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

9. Those that would trade liberty for security have neither.

10. The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

11. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

12. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.

13. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

14. Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.

15. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety.

16. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive.

17. 911:

[Brian_Va]

The most effective way to enslave a people is to disarm them

George Mason

[sagacious]

How about a quick refresher on the Bill of Rights? Allow me to paraphrase, so we don't have to go through the legal terminology.

Article 1: YOU have the right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom to assemble.

Article 2: YOU have the right to keep and bear firearms.

Article 3: YOU have the right to payment for services required by military personnel.

Article 4: YOU have the right to security in your house, your papers, and to be secure against unreasonable searches; and the State needs a clearly-outlined warrant to search your stuff.

Article 5: YOU have the right to have criminal charges brought before a Grand Jury, you cannot be charged twice for the same crime, you have the right to remain silent, and the right to due process.

Article 6: YOU have the right to a speedy trial, to gather witnesses, to see the charges against you, and the State will provide you a lawyer if you cannot afford one.

Article 7: YOU have the right to a jury trial, and to not be re-tried for the same charges.

Article 8: YOU have the right to reasonable bail, and to be protected from cruel and unusual punishment.

Article 9: Nobody can use any part of the Constitution to deny YOU your rights.

Article 10: Unless it's the responsibility of the Federal Government, or the State Government, YOU have the right to do it.

Indeed, the Second Amendment case before the Supreme Court seems like it can only go one way. As if the 2nd Amendment wasn't enough, Amendments 4, 9, and 10 all back-up the 2nd Amendment. Every article in the Bill of Rights conveys personal rights not State's rights. Other parts of the Constitution assign State's rights.............. but not the Bill of Rights. Those are the rights of the people, including of course, the Second Amendment.

To see otherwise, you'd have to chop-up the Bill of Rights and say, "Amendments 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 are people's rights, buuuuuuttttt #2 is a State's right." I don't think the Supreme Court will do that. I certainly hope not, anyway.

We shall all wait with bated breath for the outcome.

[ChampionBoatGuy]

I'm pretty worried about this. Our Supreme Court isn't really supreme anymore, just their rulings. It's a wild band of crazy activists. Some of the things they've passed and gotten away with in recent years is unsettling. I just hope they have the sense to do what's right and leave the second ammendment alone.

Perhaps it's time I go buy that Remington 700 I've been eyeballing....

[sagacious]

Best case scenario --- no one in this world produces fire arms anymore. Got a score to settle --- use your fist, knives, bow & arrow and spears. ...

This is far from the best case scenario. What about my mom and my sis? My wife? They wouldn't last 3 seconds against a violent felon.

Big, strong criminals don't need guns. They can kill you easily with their hands, or a knife, or any number of blunt objects. My wife cannot defend herself against a larger male attacker, even if she had a knife. Almost no women can, to say nothing of the elderly or infirmed, the handicapped, or anyone else who doesn't have the strength to bash an attacker into submission.

The case against the Second Amendment is, to an extent, sexist. Women have, perhaps, the most to lose, and cannot defend themselves against larger, stronger attackers. Nothing, except a firearm evens the score. Only with a firearm can a women competently defend herself, and her family and children.

A world without firearms puts women, and a substantial fraction of society, at grave risk.

Soapbox, where'd I put that soapbox?

Take care, and good fishing!

[Spike-A-Pike]

I served this country for 20 years to defend the rights of every citizen; take away my right to bear arms and the Supreme Court will have created a criminal... not all firearms are registered.

When I think of the weapons I received as gifts and others that I inherited, there is no way those would show up on any list. Thompson Model 1921 were legally sold in the US through the 1920's and if you can afford the price of the background investigation, you can own one too.

[Brian_Va]

take away my right to bear arms and the Supreme Court will have created a criminal... not all firearms are registered.

I think it's beyond that fear. They are suggesting they will determine if we the people have the right to keep and bear arms as normal citizens, according the 2nd amendment. If they declare we no longer have that right, that will probably make 20 million criminals, literally overnight.

If the court votes no, then it opens the flood gate of people who will likely charge forward to disarm everyone asap (Obama, Clinton). We know theres an elite of far left folks in politics who would LOVE to see the USA completely disarmed. This court decision would be the legal fuel they need to carry it out city by city, state by state.

My only thoughts at this point bring me back to the "unorganized militias" of the 90's who don't look so nuts now. They apparently had enough foresight to see the great Clinton far left scheme of a disarmed people left totally defenseless against an oppressive governing body who would likely run a realistic socialist/communist state if allowed. The bottom line would have been civil war. You may have noticed Bill Clinton really toned it down in his second term after half the states declared having unorganized militias forming virtually overnight. the last time we saw that kind of scenario was in 1859, the rest is history.

Unlike the last "civil war" this would likely be a real civil war where control for the central government would be fought.

I quietly step off of my soapbox.

Brian

[sagacious]

No, stay on your soapbox. No shame in that. We need a few people with the courage to stand up.

[KcDano]

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about

20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of

13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were ro unded up and exterminated

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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in: List of 7 items: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent Australia-wide, armed robberi es are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)! In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns! While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDER LY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it. You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans w ere ARMED!

[sagacious]

Some personal favorites:

"This year will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

Adolf Hitler, 1935

"Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state."

Heinrich Himmler, 1935

"I don't care about crime, I just want to get the guns."

Senator Howard Metzenbaum, 1994

[Lure--Prof]

I wish people would just obey the laws already on the books...then we wouldn't be having this discussion, we could just get on with our utopian lives. That not being the case however, my wife and I will continue to own guns; for the sport, for the fresh game on the table, and for the right to protect ourselves in a worse case scenario.

Dean

[Lure--Prof]

Sick-'em KC!!!

[Delw]

No! a world with out firearms is a dictatorship

[Spike-A-Pike]

Lawyers for the plaintiffs in the case, District of Columbia vs. Heller, argued the gun ban violates the second amendment, which states: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Heller told reporters he was confident in his case."It is a basic issue of constitutional rights when the right to self-defense has been violated," he said. "As a security officer I carry a gun to protect government officers, but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes."

Sen. John F. Kennedy's statement, Know Your Lawmakers, Guns, April 1960, p. 4 (1960): "By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia,' the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms,' our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."

[KcDano]

Read about the bonus march of the 30's were the WWI vets wanted their bonus pay. Would have shot them in their tracks, but, damn the bad luck they brought their Springfield rifles with them.

[bladesandbaits]

My dad was a firearms dealer. He passed away 2 years ago and I inherited all his guns. Thank God Dad had a few tricks up his sleeve.

Many of these guns were documented but there are just as many in his private collection that were not. I had to go through alot of red tape to keep all the firearms I inherited that were documented but it was worth it.

I have enough unregistered firearms and amunition to hold off a small army.When they come for them (and they will someday) they may get most of them but not all. It may not happen in my lifetime but I can assure you it will happen in my son's lifetime (he is 6 yrs old) if he lives to a normal age.

They will keep amending and keep amending until eventually,they get rid of the second amendment. The day that happens the Uninted States will become a dictatorship as delw said. This is a very serious matter and not to be taken lightly. I fear that with the younger generations it becomes less and less important.

Like Spike, I to served this great country we live in to defend the rights of every citizen here and abroad. I laid my ass on the line more than once for that very cause. No One owes me a debt, I did it because I felt it was my duty.

If I am alive and able, I will defend my right to bear arms and protect my family to the end. If the Sh?t ever breaks loose, anyone is welcome to come and bear there arms at my farm.If you are against the second amendent, then you would not be welcome. You will have to fend for yourself.

Good Reply KC and bryan_va

God Bless You All and God Bless This Great Nation!

Regards,

B&B

[Lure--Prof]

When I was a kid, 80% of the population in this country was rural...Now it has flip-flopped, with only 20% living in rural areas. To most of that rural 80%, firearms were simply a part of the everyday culture,,,I never took off for a day in the woods and pastures without some kind of gun, just in case I crossed paths with a rabid animal or a pack of wild dogs. Unfortunately, most kids today grow up without that sort of natural indoctrination. Guns were simply tools one used in a rural lifestyle, and most kids today don't have that same opportunity to learn about and respect firearms as a way of life. It is just in my lifetime that this unfortunate change has occured in the history of this country; and I fear the consequences of political propaganda in a culture that continually becomes more and more out of touch with that way of life that included firearms as part of an outdoor experience that has become completely alien to so much of today's youth.

Dean

[Spike-A-Pike]

Dean,

I grew up on a dairy farm and like you, there was a .22 cal in the milk house, a .30-30 in the mud room, and I'm not even sure how many rifles and shotguns were around. We grew up with firearms & respect for both firearms and adults. It's as if the very definition of firearm has changed from a hunting rifle to a semi-automatic handgun over night.

Living only minutes from East St.Louis, IL, I have seen first hand the threatening gestures of young people with large bore pistols by the casinos. I wish that you didn't hear of thugs breaking into a house and robbing someone at gun point. However, another trend becoming more common on this side of the Mississippi is people shooting at uninvited visitors... by the way, call ahead for an invitation, if you know what I mean.

Boy Scout summer camps used to teach the hunter safety course in addition to the rifle shooting merit badge. As part of "We the People", we need to take the time to help make a difference in developing our youth into model citizens. Ditto Dean, we need that way of life that included firearms as part of an outdoor experience that has become completely alien to so much of today's youth.

Now that I've got some of that off my chest, I'll thank you for letting me vent and step down from the soap box,

[Travis]

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Australian Guns Stats

I know many will chime in of course the article is proganda that the other side uses to dispell the truth.

Ok I own guns, have always owned guns and am completely against gun control. However the fear tatics used by both sides to support the claims is horrendous. Many things have changed since the good ole' days and at some point many will have to face the fact that the fear and paranoia, both reality and percieved, used during the cold war no longer exists. Unfortunately this fear has molded many previous generations and continues on.

Do any of us truely believe that the USA will turn on its citizens and exterminate us? Do you believe that another country will take us over (if we don't have guns) and then exterminate us?

[Brian_Va]

Do any of us truely believe that the USA will turn on its citizens and exterminate us? Do you believe that another country will take us over (if we don't have guns) and then exterminate us?

Travis,

I'm an optimistic realist, and I not trying to flame you on this, but rather deliver to you a perspective. I agree that numbers are often distorted, but I know in my heart of hearts that America is plain hated. Not only that, but we are highly divided. We are comprised of many walks of life who frequently disagree on politics and religion. I have neighbors and family who are far left, and their views scare me about how much government needs to be in my living room regulating every aspect of life. This takes us right back to pre 1776 when the King's army did as they pleased in America.

I know in my heart that are foreign powers just waiting for an opportunity to take a shot at us. I know there are people within our society salivating at the idea of disarming America. they have secret political views and agendas, we all do.

I once met a woman, I told her I drove an F250, and she went nuts on me with hate and venom. She proclaimed nobody needs a vehicle like that! I explained to her why I have it and it pacified her for the moment. There are people in America who belong to the nazi party, the communist party, socialist, and religious zealots. Picture an unarmed America, that doesn't guaranty police protection. Or worse, picture an America with extreme political views laying in wait. Whatever is on your mind, just fast forward the tape and envision the outcome.

Do any of us truely believe that the USA will turn on its citizens and exterminate us?

History- read about Sherman's march through the south. Employed by the central governing body of the time to WIN the war between the states, he said in regards to his own family and neighbors(for all intent and purpose). Spoken from American lips about America people.

"This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."

"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will."

There is a new left in America, not like the Trumans of this world, but a more sinister breed. They want real big government run by a new class of people with visions of a real Pol Pot styled utopian society which just happens to run the worlds biggest and most powerful military. Unlike the democrats of yesteryear these people seek a whole new agenda of control. Look at the laundry lists of the political left these days. Franklin D Roosevelt and Harry Truman are probably rolling over in their graves.

I think we the people have to be ultra fearful of those who align themselves with the communist party and bring to the table nationalized elements such as ID's, health care, and gun control OR resending the right to keep and bears arms. Nationalism scares me, Hitler was a national socialist (Nazi).

I make no attempts to justify the political right. And I often find them just as guilty. I see an America today that 30 40 50 years ago would have been intolerant of todays standards. the states are collapsing, you can leave liberal Maryland for Utah, but if Utah is under the same federalization where do you stand?

Not only do I believe that America is ticking time bomb of political views, I believe that given half a chance certain people in government today would be more than happy to send out their choice troops for a realistic disarming and set in motion a realistic totalitarian central government. Somewhere in America today sits a person, who is fantasizing about Pol Pot's Cambodia in America, or a religious zealot dreaming of exterminating all the Christians. I know there are people who firmly believe the following: if we could just rid the country of all the Republicans we could finally have our perfect society. And the only thing that stands between them implementing their freaky ideals is the gun.

This court case will be the deciding factor in how far they can go, before some nut job makes that fateful ascension to power. Every dictator in history always knew on thing- there will no assertion of my power and ideas until I disarm the populous at large. In Sept 1939 the world found out just how much you can't trust a government who disarms it's people first. Despite all his big claims about the fate of Germany, as soon as Hitler disarmed and dis empowered the Jews, he exterminated them.

I now humble myself and quietly, step down from my soapbox

Brian