Injection machines

[One Sock]

Ok need some advice. My orders are becoming a little more than I can handle witha full time job, granted it is the time of year, but I would love to invest in an injection machine or something that can speed things up considerably without sacrificing too much on the quality side, would also love to produce laminates and stuff easier than the two part process I have going on.

Where to buy one?

What are the downsides?

Should I consider pouring pots? if so from who and how much? ( microwaving right now in pyrex Cups)

I need to be producing about 600-1000 baits per day and with a full time job it's a lot of late nights.

If I can get them done over the weekend, my wife and kids would be much happier and I wouldn't have nearly the amount of blisters:wink:

[MONKEYqpHUNTER]

if you get some pots you will just about double your production speed.but at a 1000 worms a day your still going to be there awhile. i have never used the injection machine but i would guess it would be even faster.but you will spend over a 1000 dollars per machine. maybe think of getting some help until you get cought up.

[Spike-A-Pike]

I think there are a few other considerations: 1) the cost of the mold for the machine, 2) lead-in time and cost for getting the molds constructed, 3) getting training on the machine, 4) production numbers required to make the profits equal the cash out lay, just to name a few.

You might want to PM carolinamike to pick his brain on the subject; he just started his soft plastic company with a new purpose-built injection machine and molds. He may know where you might be able to pick up a used one. Would you still be able to classify your product as "Hand Poured" if you go to an injection process???

[charmerbaits]

If you go to the full blown injection molding like carolina Mike that is no way associated to handpours. Also the equipment is pricy. The injection equipment is going to run $20,000 - $30,000 then molds will be anywhere from $2,000-$6,000 depending on what you want done.

Also, the smallest run I've seen any machine setup to make is 2 gallons of plastic in a run, which depending on the bait size will be 600 or so up to 2000 on one bait in 1 color.

We currently own 3 sets of molds that are run for us by a different person and are in the process of having a new mold made. I can tell you that 1 mold is costing about $4500. So to make it worthwhile you better plan on selling a ton of baits.

If your talking about some of the smaller injection pots I don't know much about them.

Charlie

[Bountiful Waters]

When I got to the point where I was falling behind, I hired someone to help.

[Delw]

Zorn molds makes and sells the best injection machines, your looking at about 45k for a machine that shoots 2 colors.

figure between 75-100 baits per 90 seconds ( you have to take into the consideration the size of the bait).

molds range from 5,000-20,000 depending on the complexisity(sp).

[MTfishingrods]

And with that price tag it takes a giant leap out of the hobby category! You will have just bought yourself a job my friend. Maybe the wife and kids would like to learn how to pour? The conversation could start by saying honey, I think we need to do more things together as a family.

Edited May 8, 2008 by MTfishingrods

[One Sock]

Thanks guys, I never intended this to be as busy as it is, But I love doing it. I guess I could cut back or hire some help. Not sure I want to go full blown. Pots may be the way to go for now

any suggestions on those?

[JSC]

Just a word ... One sock you have done some great pours .. real "Hand Poured" plastics .. it would really be expensive to get an injection machine to do anywhere what you are doing by hand .. really I think You will find that Your next step and stay as close to the great work you are doing (I am guessing ..) and has brought you to where you are today , is to going with the Presto Pot, or should I say pots for the 2 color work ... you can cook it and pour it faster.

Just my 2 cents worth.

JSC

[Spike-A-Pike]

Hey One Sock (do your friends call you "Bare Foot"?)

Take a look at some of the posts by mbroggi1. I think he has defined the steps for building a Presto Pot with fairly basic tools. At one point, I think he had a classified ad for them.

It's rough getting old as my "Lightning Fast Mental Abilities" slow to the speed of road tar in Wisconsin in January.

[james bradshaw]

You may want to consider having another company shoot the baits for you, it would be a lot cheaper. I know from experience the costs involved.

If you want to talk give me a call.

James

435-279-9900

[Spike-A-Pike]

You may need to expand your operations with equipment and personnel. Would having a sound pouring station alone reduce production time? Would that alone be enough to speed things up? Would just adding a part-time employee be enough to speed up production? Do you need to expand your business to the next level by adding production capability and adding a paid employee. There could be a few tax advantages, you'd have file for your federal excise tax for creating fishing tackle, but your equipment, space, home office, materials, and inventory would change your tax situation. Having an employee also changes things; do you have to set up accounts for tax withholding or is the employee an independent contractor. You'll need to get insurance to protect yourself in case the employee gets injured on the job,

Just a few of the things learned about in 1995 when I retired the Air Force and was needed to help prepare my father's restaurant from a long term investment to a marketable business for sale. The craziest 6 months of my life.

If possible, try to keep the things that make your custom hand poured bait both custom and hand poured; but don't put it a head of the family. Good luck.

[carolinamike]

One Sock,

Man I'm sorry for not catching this post earlier. We're in post spawn in our area right now so Carolina Baits is wide open. But I will chime in and help you clear up some thing on this subject. First of all, I would like to offer our services to you to produce your baits. Take my word for it, I mass produced hand pours for 6 years and have never once gotten paid for my labor, so getting someone else that can mass produce your baits for you will save you time and then you can be paid for your labor. PM me for the details on this and thanks Bruce for remembering me.

Alright this much being said on my part, let's talk about mass production. If you're determined to keep things in house as we were, there are ways to do it. The first thing and I don't think that anyone has mentioned it, if your going to produce a lot of baits by hand, you want a lot of molds. If there's 10 baits per bag, it's best that you have at least 30 cavities to pour. The presto pots properly built pressure pots and properly regulated Lee pots will all do fine. The secret to this is having enough pots to keep you going for an amount of time. For instance, I use the Lee pots, heat up time from start to finish is somewhere around an hour. So what I would do, if I have a lot of one color to make, I would go ahead and mix my plastic up and put in the pots, as soon as my first pot was ready to pour start heating the second pot, by the time you finish pouring the first pot, the second pot is ready to go. The bad side to this is that after about 6 hours of steady pouring, that little bitty POP mold, silicone mold or aluminum molds are gonna start feeling like they weigh 500 lbs. Then you start losing your neatness and you will have over pour to trim from the baits. By the time your labeling and packaging is done, you have put so much cost into your bait with your labor that you will never get paid back for it. I keep noticing this coming up also, every time someone mentions mass production or injection machines. Not as good or quality not as good as hand pour, this is very incorrect. This mainly has to do with the operators of the machine. Most large companies goal is to make it, get it in a bag and get it in the store, that's all they're worried about. Mass production is the same as anything else, you only get out of it what you put into it. Most companies do not have the same people running the machine all the time. 9 out of 10 times these are immigrant workers running the machine and quality is not top priority with any of these folks. With an injection machine, you get a more consistent product, you do not worry about overheating at all but it's like any other plastic equipment, you have to constantly inspect your product and you have to pay attention to detail. I can do laminates just as good as any hand pour, solid colors are no problem, we put the exact same additives into our mass produced plastic as we do our hand pours (yeah, that's right I'm still doing both, it's an addiction). Most companies aren't going to put expensive scent, softener, and the other things that make hand pours so special. Yes we are into mass production, but we're more into the quality of our product, whether we produce it one a time or 86 at a time. I will send anybody out there a finesse worm that I've hand poured and a finesse worm that I've injected and challenge anyone to find the difference in the quality. That being put to rest, everyone is correct on the machine being very expensive. If you're going to produce a competitive product line of baits, then you're looking at about $100,000.00 for equipment and molds alone. Proper air compressor will run you around $2500.00 and then you have to have the facility for your manufacturing. I got my machine in January I have already purchased 6 barrels of plastic at around $500.00 per barrel. Then you have to look at mass quanities of flake and you start buying your coloring by the pound instead of by ounces. I don't mean to scare you but this is the reality that we are facing right now, the runner for your bait, which is the canal in the mold that each individual bait branches off of when the plastic is injected. These runners average out to about 30% of the plastic that you make, you can regrind them and use re-use some of them, but you have to be very careful or you will lose the consistency of your product. Think about your hand pours now and look at the waste that you have in the plastic and triple or more with mass production. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, I just really want you to have the facts and know what you are getting into. And maybe you think I'm the kind of guy that's got a whole lot of money, you're wrong. You will need around $30,000.00 as an initial investment in order to get started up but there are ways to do this. The Small Business Association is your best bet, but you have to find a bank that has their own SBA division. We actually went to about 4 different banks before we got what we were looking for. Most banks are not familiar with the plastic industry so you will have to shop around. I live in a very small town in NC if I can do this, then you can. You just really have to make up your mind about how much you want to put into it. Either way you decide to go, whether it be hand pouring yourself, getting me or someone else to make your plastic or to get your own mass production equipment, PM me or call me 1-704-434-9255 and I'll be glad to help you along the way with this. A good mentor is very valuable in this business. I was lucky enough to get the gentleman that the standard for the business as mine. He told me the reason he was helping me was that so one day I could help someone else. So don't hesitate to PM or call.

[One Sock]

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it Mike, not sure I want to invest the money people are talking about but am very interested in outsourcing some of this I'll be in touch, thanks again

[carolinamike]

Sounds great man.

I'll be glad to help you in any way I can. When you get your pricing on someone else making your baits, get a price per bait and not by the pound. Most companies that sell plastic by the pounds have bad baits in them. I know one gentleman that was getting 16% bad baits. If you purchase by the piece you are paying for each individual piece, therefore they should all be perfect. You should not pay for any baits that are not formed properly. I would also like to mention that our product line is also produced for resale under your company name. Right now we do have three baits available for this (lizard, finesse worm, and shakee shad and also 2 different styles of crappie or panfish flicktails). We've got three more worms coming and two chunk jig trailers, if you would like to add to your product line. If Carolina Baits produces your product, everything is kept in house. I personally run the machine and will be solely responsible for producing good baits. If you develop your own custom color, which is truly a custom color, this will never be produced for anyone but you. Like I said there's a lot more we can talk about, so call me or PM me. I'm sure we can have a great working relationship. And for anyone out there in TU land, that's interested just let me know. Be sure and tell me you are a TU member so you can get your discount.

[james bradshaw]

Carolina Mike is right you can make the injected baits just as soft and as good of quality as hand poured baits, He's also right about the fact that it is very hard to make money hand pouring, your labor minutes per part is just too long. I can make six thousand to ten thousand baits per hour on some of my smaller baits and 1500 to 2000 per hour on bigger baits.How many can you hand pour?

My partner is a machine design engineer with the capability of drawing your own personal bait design and producing your mold and baits for you at competitive prices.

I also personally make every bait that we sell.

James