rofish Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 LaPala, It seems that I have to learn many other things from you. I am not familiar with banana lures, had no time yet to make one (or more) for myself, but I will surely "dirt" my hands on them some day. I was already wandering about the action they have, especially after Luretrekker showed us his "winner", with the tow point close to the front edge of the lure. Now these Zalt lures have no lip part in front of the tow point, which make me believe that they might have a quite large swinging action left and right. They cannot have an "X" action, they would rather have a "V" action. Is my guess correct? Sorry for needing a quick answer () but I am just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 rofish, you are right with your assumtion that the front lure eye very close to the edge produces a mor V-shaped action than that of a typical banana with a more backwards inserted eye, which craetes a strong X-shaped lure action with lots of hard vibrations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) @ LaPala I also don't like the "Zalt"-lures too much , they do not have a strong wobbling action on a steady retrieve , but when twitched , they are said to be real killers . To me , these "Zalt's" are rather more twitch,-or jerkbaits than crankbaits . I much more prefer a strong , almost vibrating wiggle on such lures . @ Luretrekker I am not quite sure yet , wether I would make my first "Luretrekker-Banana" out of abachewood , really depends , wether I would find a piece of teakwood of sufficient thickness in my wood stock . I'd prefer that one , since the working process would be a lot faster , since I always protect my abache lures against water sepage with a linseedoil/turpentine treatment , which usually takes about three weeks , in addition to shaping and painting ! Other woods I just dip into wood preserver , that procedure only takes three days until I could proceed . @ rofish But if the toweye is placed too far upward towards the back of the "Banana" , it could make the lure to turn on its back , it might not be possible anymore to counterbalance it by weight under the lip . Also a wider tail enhances the tendency to flip over , generally speaking : wider tail section = toweye location more downward the nose , narrower tail section = toweye may be placed further upward . Manu , please correct me , if I should be wrong about this statement ! Greetz , Dieter Edited September 3, 2008 by diemai spelling error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I agree with your statement so far that there is a maximum point to insert the lure eye until the lure turns. Concerning the other statement with the wider and narrow tail section I think I dont' really know what you mean with wide and narrow...in which dimension? wider in horizontal or vertical direction or the radius of the tail? Maybe a sketch would help here to help my slow brain understanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 @ Luretrekker Manu , I mean a rather more flat tail(horizontal) would tend more to overturn than a tail oval or even round . For instance the tail section of a "SwimWhizz"(German version called "Damler") I consider as to be a flat , or in other words , a wider tail section . OK:) ? Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 Ok then I understood you right ;-) I didn't tried those flat tails so much like it is at the "Damler" but I can imagine the effect you speak of. My bananas got almost always a more round shaped cross section at the tail, so I don't have the real experience with the difference. But in the belly region I modeled the cross section very wide and oval in some lures. I think it enhances an agressive X-action, because drag is reduced by sliding to the sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 @ Luretrekker At the beginning of my luremaking carreer I made some real srange looking lures , also with flat tails , many of them did not work . So I learned it the hard way , but as I look at it from a present point of view , all of these disappointments back then have their benefits for me today . I am of your opinion as well , that a flat center section enhances that "X"-action , since not as much sideward resistance of the lurebody against the water occurs . greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 OK, I got your ideas, so thanks Germany. But Diemai, why do you need a rather flat tail anyway, in your bananas, since you say that you have less chances to play with the action? So if a wider tail section (and not a taller than wider, as it goes for usual crankbaits) will make the lure flip over, then why do you need a wide tail section for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 @ Diemai, yes those are true words...you just can learn from a failed lure. I built a lot of strange looking lures too... and not all were a success in their action ;-) For example once I tried to build a jointed banana...this lure never worked very well at all. There are things one has to try...and sometimes error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 @ rofish There are lures around with flat tails , and these do not neccessarely make EVERY lure to flip over ! When writing these previous posts about flat tails , I was refering to the shape of Luretrekkers design exclusively ! A "Swimwhizz" , for example , has a flat tail portion , but does not flip over ! Why ? It does not have a curved body and also has a rather small diving bill , at a rather high angle in relation to lures center axis(pointing more downward , not forward) . You need to understand , that there are so many features about different lureshapes(straight or curved) , lip sizes and angles , weight of lures and balance weights and a few more , that don't come to my mind right now . All of these have an impact on the lures action and general performance , and in many cases one can not easily predict about them , so I just try it out , since I do not run any high point computer design program , that does everything for me ! And I don't need a flat tail on my "Bananas" , I only raised this subject to try to explain about the dynamics of such lures , since you have obviously asked for it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 @ Luretrekker Often cracked my brain about a jointed one as well , but never started out so far , I know , that its gonna be headache , possibly:? ! But I own two commercial jointed "Bananas" , one "Flatfish" and one minor quality no-name lure , that I bought on a fleamarket the other day for little money , rather more to study it than to fish with it . That one's front section looks like a modern plastic "Lazy Ike" , the rather short rear section has a small , unsymetrical fin , looking quite similar to a shark's tail . If I should still make a jointed one in future , I'd put it into this shape , I like this fin design ! Maybe , if the lure would be made large and buoyant enough , on a slow retrieve this fin would cause a nice wake on the surface ???? just dreamin' (or not?) , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 This lure sounds interesting. Do you have a picture that you could mail me? Dream or not...this is what makes lurebuilding interesting...having new ideas for new projects :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 @ Luretrekker Hi , Manu , I'm gonna post the pics here in about 10 to 12 hours from now(if I could find the lures:huh:) , won't go down the basement anymore at night , just relaxing after lateshift ! until then , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 That would be great...but don't haste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 @ Luretrekker Good morning , Manu , Sorry , but I could not find the jointed "Flatfish" (one day I surely will !) , but I guess your focus of interest is upon that other lure with the "shark's tail" , anyway . Well , here it is , you can determine about its size by the background squared paper , each square is 1/5 " (5mm) . The diving plane ahead of the tow eye is slightly cupped , may not be too visible on the pics ! Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Thanks a lot dieter! No problem with the other bait. Wow the shape looks very similar to my bananas, except the joint. I have never seen this lure before. I like it. The positioning of the joint for this kind of bait makes sense. The one that I built some years ago had the joint almost in the middle...but this obviously couldn't work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 @ Luretrekker No , Manu , a centered joint wouldn't work , since the bait would only "fold" in the middle , thus all the "guidance" by the curved body through the water is gone . That "Flatfish" I couldn't find , also ha a very short tail-section . greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Dieter, Did you thru-wire the jointed lure? I have a jointed flatfish in my garage somewhere. I'll try and find it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Marc, I think the jointed lure on the picture is not a custom built lure...it is from the fleamarket. Please correct me if I'm wrong dieter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 @ mark poulson Hi , Mark , Luretrekker is right , this jointed "Banana" I found on a fleamarket a couple of weeks ago . At first I was hesitating to buy it for 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Diemai & Luretrekker, I think you may consider yourselves as fully responsible for this thread going on ... As I said, I am not familiar with such type of lures. But you made me wanting to have some. So this is what I came up with: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas001.jpg They are made of poplar, which is tough yet light wood. I needed such a wood, because I understood that such lures may be unstable, so I needed to add some weight. They are 101 mm long (4"), and I draw the shape freehand, then I made a template, out of metal sheet, as I do for all my crankbaits. (I do not behave as an engineer, as Diemai does). I liked the ideea of Luretrekker about the hardware - to cut through the lip (head) part up to a certain point, but then I thought that if I continue with the wire all over the belly, up to the tail, it would be impossible for me to play with the placement of the weight. So I have chosen an intermediate solution for one of the lures. There is a short hole in the head of the lure, in which I glued the twisted wire end of the hardware, which then continues with 3 tow eyes, then goes underneath the lip and ends up in a single wire. There is a groove for the wire, all along it. After glueing the ends of the wire with 5 min epoxy, I used 2 part plumber's epoxy putty to fill in the groove. I have a very good quality putty, which is imported from Germany (brand name is Sun Fix). When using such putty, you have to make sure that the putty is well pressed into place. After cure, it sands nicely, better than epoxy. To the other lure, I used 3 holes in which I placed 3 twisted wire tow eyes. It was very difficult to drill the holes at a sharp angle without a drill press, one hole was off center, but I managed to enlarge a little bit the hole, and when glueing it I put it in the right position (centered). As the surface of the lip was not smooth after using epoxy, I sanded it, then I used epoxy putty and sanded it again. http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas002.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas003.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas004.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas005.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas006.jpg After sealing the lures, I tested them with the weight hanging from the belly, using electrical insulation tape: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas007.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas008.jpg In short, I could not use the top tow eye, because the lures would roll, and I was not extremely happy with the action in the case of the 2 other tow eyes (closer to the lip end). The lures would swing from one side to the other, more or less. I thought this way of testing the lures is not the best one, becase the tape and the flat side of the weight are significantly affecting the action. So I glued the weight with superglue: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas009.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas010.jpg This time the lures behave in a different way, to one of them I could even use the top tow eye, but they still have the swinging action from one side to the other. I think I will test some more locations for the lead (in the second way, using superglue), then I will put the weights in. I am sure that after this, the lures wil behave in a different action. And if I am not satisfied with it, I will try to add a small lip. But Diemai & Luretrekker also made it possible for me to make this creature: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas011.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas012.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas013.jpg http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas014.jpg And you know what? Out of these 3 lures, this one has the closest action to a usual crankbait. I think I will call this lure "Pterodactylus D&L", because Diemai and Luretrekker had a more important contribution than myself to the creation of this shape. Speaking of shapes, it crossed my mind that I may try this: http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/rofish_2006/rofish_2006-4/bananas015.jpg You could make it slimmer/taller, with/without a head, etc, as you like. I think this shape has the advantade that you can place the weight at the lowest points of the lure. I wonder it this shape has been tried before? Another idea came to my mind after seeing Luretrekker's "winner" (the lure which produced a nice pike for him). That lure has a scar on the nose, and I think it does not come from a pike, but rather from the encounter with rocks or gravel, or similar. I think I could make a protective cap for the nose, using clear plastic sheet, which you could wrap around the nose using heat. Just an idea. So Diemai & Luretrekker, this is all your fault:angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 rofish, I thnk you, Dieter, and Luretreker should form your own lure company, Frankenstein Lures. Each lure could be named for some monster. The newest design you just posted should be call, "Nessie", for the Loch Ness Monster. You guys are the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) rofish, always nice to see that I'm not the only ill guy that lets himself get influenced of some ideas to experiment with new lures ;-) ;-) Nice lures you created...:yay:and indeed an honour for diemai and me to get mentioned in the name of your pterodaktylus lure :-) Concerning the action...I would expect you to get a more heavy action with a body that wasn't that thin (horizontally) and therefore more oval in shape. (For the first two lures) Once I either tried a lure with several lure eyes...it is difficult to built a lure that really works in all three positions. I never tried the last "nessi" shape. Maybe we should try this one...I could not predict the action :-) who knows...maybe the second bow of the back would compensate some vortex??? I dont know. @ mark: Yes Frankenstein-Lures would be great...and indeed the right thing for banana style lures...This reminds me on one of my Frankenstein bananas where I built in light cables and a light source Edited October 1, 2008 by Luretrekker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Mark, I think that your ideas may struck gold. "Frankenstein Lures" ? Now this may be a brand name that every fisherman would like to try. It is a far more interesting name than Rapala, for instance Luretrekker, That's another wonderful lure. I think you had to spend weeks, or even mounths, to build a lure with lights inside. I also had this idea, but I do not know if this is worth the effort. Would be fish crazy about such a lure at night time? I think not. Thank you for your guidance in building such lures. Certainly, I will not stop testing such new lures for me, in case of a failure. I have a question for you. I have noticed that to some of your bananas you do not use just a split ring to attach the treble hooks. You also use a swivel, so the distance between the body and the treble hook increases. Do you have a reason for that? I think that you have. By lowering the position of the treble hooks, you also lower the center of gravity, and thus you increase the stability of the lure. Am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 That has to be the ultimate night fishing lure, a work of both pure science and art. The Nautilus, from 20 Thousand Leagues. I know it would be deadly in the salt around the kelp at night. I bet it would also work for largemouth bass, especially the big girls, who hunt and feed at night. How long did it take you to make it, and is it stable when you fish it? rofish,always nice to see that I'm not the only ill guy that lets himself get influenced of some ideas to experiment with new lures ;-) ;-) Nice lures you created...:yay:and indeed an honour for diemai and me to get mentioned in the name of your pterodaktylus lure :-) Concerning the action...I would expect you to get a more heavy action with a body that wasn't that thin (horizontally) and therefore more oval in shape. (For the first two lures) Once I either tried a lure with several lure eyes...it is difficult to built a lure that really works in all three positions. I never tried the last "nessi" shape. Maybe we should try this one...I could not predict the action :-) who knows...maybe the second bow of the back would compensate some vortex??? I dont know. @ mark: Yes Frankenstein-Lures would be great...and indeed the right thing for banana style lures...This reminds me on one of my Frankenstein bananas where I built in light cables and a light source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
