robertjp Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 OK guys, What would happen if I used no sealer before my white basecoat, paint, and epoxy topcoat??? How could water ruin the wood if it is epoxy sealed as a finishing touch? Im thinking the white base coat (2 if needed) would hold alot better to raw wood than some oil based sealer. Anybody tried it good or bad? Thanks Bob P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coley Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 What type of wood are you trying to seal?? If its balsa, your wood grain will probably show through. If its hard wood, such as basswood, it will probably be ok. Coley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 white pine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 I need to ask the question again since no response. Why use a sealer if its epoxy coated at the end? Thanks BP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdaddy Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Because if the bait is continually banged against rock or suffers an impact the topcoat may develop a hairline crack or a chip. If this happens water may seep into the wood causing it to swell. If the lure is sealed no swelling can take place and you may touch up the lure and retopcoat the damaged area. If the lure in unsealed the swelling will destroy the lure in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Thanks Hoosier, makes good sense. Has anybody here ever tried Minwax polycrylic sealer (waterbased)?????????? Thanks BP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 I know the old Bagley's Balsa Baits had no sealer on them. The had a very, and I mean very thick coat of some kind of white paint or primer. It was so thick it would hide any wood grain. Sanded like chalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdaddy Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Were these old Bagley's made of Balsa? If so , the reason that no sealer was needed was that balsa is naturally water repellant. The reason that they would use this thick paint type of primer was that they wanted to seal off the grain...not as to make it water resistant but to keep the grain from showing through. This is why most of the balsa builders that you speak to use epoxy as an undercoat. After fully curing the epoxy can be lightly sanded and seals off the grain lines. Makes for a good painting surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 OK boys, here's the deal. Folks can argue with it, but this is the way it is...... If you want to make a BULLET PROOF balsa lure you have to seal it with epoxy. Why???? Because balsa flexes. Regardless of what you use for a clearcoat, if the balsa is not reenforced then the clearcoat will crack. You should use some type of sealer on a lure of any type of wood because of the pure fact that the paint will get down into the wood as it cures and the wood will show through. Water based, Lacquer based, Oil based, it doesn't matter. The only way around this is to put several thick coats of undercoat on the plug so that it won't show through. Hughsey is right about Bagleys. The old Poes were done that way too. Dick Nite has a white undercoat that performs the same way. But this type of undercoat goes on thick and you will use alot on a plug. It does sand very nicely and gets real smoothe. Paint shoots onto it like a dream. But if you are going to really shoot some plugs then you better get a gallon of it. It goes quick. Why didn't Bagleys and Poes seal their wood???? Easy. Bagleys wants you to buy more lures. Making them bullet proof is time consuming, more expense, and doesn't make good business when you mass produce lures to sell to the public. Poes didn't need to. The super thick undercoat and the hard wood kept the plugs from flexing, therefore, the cleacoat held better. Balsa does not absorb water. This is why they use it to line welding tanks. It will get wet, but will not soak to the core. Hard woods will. Like I have said, I use polyurathane on hardwood. I just wipe a thin coat on with a rag. LIGHTLY, you don't need to soak the wood. It really does not make a water tight seal. It just gives a light coating to keep the paint from really seeping into the wood as it cures. I have coated hardwood and balsa with lacquer and water based white undercoats with no sealer on the wood before I did it and they looked good. Two days later you could see the wood through the undercoat. Regardless of what you use to seal the wood, you will still need multiple coats of white to get a good undercoat that won't allow the wood to show through. If someone tells you that they are only using one coat of white and have no problems.... then they are shooting it real thick and they are fighting runs. To make a balsa plug bullet proof, cleacoat the lure with long drying Devcon before you paint it. Then shoot your paint. This will not work with water based paints, only lacquer. Then clearcoat with Devcon for the final clearcoat. A balsa plug CANNOT be made any tougher than this. I have heard folks say that Devcon cracks in cold water, that they have thown a Devcon coated plug on a concrete floor and it cracked, or that their Devcon coated plug bumped something underwater and the finish shattered or the finish discolored. Let's get this crap out of the way. Devcon does not crack in cold water, bass do not hit plugs like a concrete floor at 150 mph. and if you put it on PROPERLY then it will not shatter when it hits something, and it won't discolor!!!!!! Just spread on a thick coat, spin it, and let it dry for 24hrs. Quit putting torches to it, hairdrying it, cooking it, and everything else. There is nothing tougher than Devcon for the average guy making crankbaits. Lord, next someone will say that they hit a Devcon coated plug with a laser and it melted, or I shot it with my 300 win mag and the finish cracked, or I threw hydrochloric acid on it and the finish discolored. Your plug needs to withstand years of bass hitting it, not an atomic blast. It is time consuming, it is tedious, and you cannot turn out 100 plugs in 24hrs. this way. But when it is finished, it will be built better than any other plug that you can buy from any company. And it will perform and serve the owner of that plug for years. P.S. I feel better now. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radu Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Skeeter, even if you didn't sign your postings and your name didn't show up next to your post, i would recognize your messages from a mile away. Always with the final and decissive touch, you know what and how to point out extremely well. I don't know what you do for a living, but you would make for a perfect teacher. I am your biggest fan. Radu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 I have been using the Minwax polycrylic for about six weeks now. After sanding my baits, I dip the lure in the sealer shake off the excess and rotate for a few hours. the next day I lightly sand and repete the process. The Polycrylic will cover wood grain, not allowing it to show through. After sealing, I put Two coats of white Krylon primer. I know some guys here have had problems with the Krylon, but so far I have not. After the prime coat, I paint with Createx. The topcoat is two coats of Devcon 2. The reason for two coats is I have some fairly sharp edges on my cup faced popper and the extra coat was needed to protect this thin edge. The finish looks great, with no grain showing ,but as I said, I have only been using the polycrylic a short time so I'm not sure how it will hold up over the long haul. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Skeeter, Once and for all....Thank You! Since my plugs are white pine and not balsa, do you still think I should put the devcon on before painting and also as a top coat? Of course Ill have to switch from the createx since its water base. Remember my plugs are not for bass.... I use them for muskies and they take a pounding not only from the fish but from slamming into the bottom of the Niagara river (on purpose) Thanks Bob P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 robertjp, I would clearcoat the bare wood if you are fishing for those yankee toothy critters. Go to the lacquer. You won't be sorry. Lacquer shoots with more control than any thing I have used before. Then clear coat with Devcon. If you have to you can clearcoat it twice. Put on one coat and let it dry for 24 hrs. Then clearcoat again and let it dry for another 24 hrs. If they bust that finish, then they are some bad ass fish..... Period!!!! I will bet that I can make a BALSA lure and prepare it like I have said.... and it will withstand Muskie or Pike. I'll tell you what I will do. To put all of this stuff to rest...... I will make you a deal. Will a Muskie or Pike hit a flat sided crankbait? The lure will run about 10 ft. deep. If so, I will make you one out of balsa and send it to you for free. You can keep it. You take the thing out and catch these Yankee toothy critters on it and agree to take a picture of the lure after you have caught some fish on it and post it here on the site. Nothing on this lure will be made from pre-made store bought stuff. I will make this lure out of nothing but raw materials. Catch one or ten of these suckers on it. I don't care. You make the decission. How bout it? Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Skeeter, An offer I cant refuse! Lets do it, Ill trade you something you can use in dixie. You say clearcoat first......with devcon or polyurethane? Where can I get the laquer and what brand do you recommend? Im ready to try it. Thanks for your knowledge and offer. Be surprised if a balsa lure holds up for more than a few fish but Ive been wrong before. Bob P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 You don't need to trade nothing dude. This is my challenge. You are doing me a favor. Clearcoat with the Devcon on bare wood. If you would like to use the polyurathane first it won't hurt. What color do you want. I am a basic kind of guy. What is your suggestion? I will let you know what I can do. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Perch color will work or shad around 6-9" long. check your msg box too. What about the brand laquerl? and where is the best place to get it? Bob P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 What the hell is perch color? How about, Black and yellow, Green and yelllow, Brown stripe, green scales, yellow body, Purple Yellow, Pearl white body and the above scale colors. What normal colors do these yankees hit? Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjp Posted December 20, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Skeeter, Like a yellow perch.. yellow color, black vertical stripes, black back, a touch of orange fins. Or what ever is easier for you green/yellow will work too. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Green and Yellow, (Homer) I will start to work on it. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 You tell 'em "daddy"!! Man, I was going to buy you a beer so you could cool off. But- I figured one wouldn't do the job so I drank it. Skeeter, I listen to everything you say. You haven't steered me wrong yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassNator 1 Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 AWESOME POST GUYS!! Skeeter you sound like a man who STANDS BEHIND HIS CRAFT..... and flat out YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF!! Im learning and I appreciate it guys! Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 An interesting post, thanks guys. I would like to make a comment, however, about the use of a "hairdryer" on the Devcon as I think I am the one responsible for bringing this up again. I probably don't have a fraction of the experience Skeeter does with the Devcon but have coated several hundred baits over the last couple years. I used to have problems with the Devcon getting sticky on me (at times) and also with low spots here and there.......as many others who have posted here have experienced too. Once I started using the HD ALL of these problems went away. You can without a doubt get perfect finishes without the HD. The HD simply provides the bait-builder with some flexibility. If the stuff starts to set-up on you or if the surface isn't looking perfect the HD will smooth things out to a glass-like finish. As I have said before, since using the HD every one of the finishes on my baits turns out flawless, everytime. I would encourage others to try it before making a final decision. Best of luck to all of you. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Tally, I appreciate you helping me out. But you better get to the store for a case. I'm gonna need it before this is over. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Skeeter, I almost hate to do this to you after all you have been through, but here goes. I work in my garage. It has heat and A/C. During warm weather the Devcon seems to flow on fairly smoothe, no problem. When the days are cold( I'm still in the garage 68- 74 degrees) The Devcon seems to be verry thick and goes on in globs. If I cover the entire bait with this extreemly thick coat and put it on the wheel will it still level out and dry properly? It seems the working time I have with a batch of mixed Devcon is about three min. I mark the syringe every 1/4 in. , for the baits I'm making, 1/4 in. covers two lures so I'm mixing only what I need to coat two baits at a time. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but this is the most important step. Thanks, Joe P.S. Did you receive the package? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hi Joe, This is the point I was trying to make up above, there are times when the HD is helpful, paint on the Devcon, if it's a bit sticky don't worry about it, fire up the dryer and in less than a minute it will look like glass, I promise ya. Quickly smooth any small areas with a brush. You can of course also move your entire work area to somewhere warmer, your choice. Have fun. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
