mark poulson Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) Well, I thought I was cutting a fat hog when I decided to undercoat my last batch, a total of 7, of three piece 6" jointed swimbaits with a rattle can aluminum paint that dried really shiny. Too cool, I thought, it will look like foil without all the work of foiling. Short story long, the aluminum paint bonded perfectly to the Krylon primer, but the Createx paint didn't bond to the slick aluminum paint. I found this out yesterday, when I introduce three of the baits to the rocks. The good news, I hooked three swimbait fish, and landed two. The bad news, the D2T peeled where I'd hit the rocks, and took the Createx with it! Obviously, the bond between the aluminum paint and the water based paint wasn't strong. I'm going to strip those three down to the aluminum paint, sand it up, re prime with Krylon, and then use pure Createx and D2T in my paint and finish scheme. I know that there needs to be a mechanical bond (rough surface) between dissimilar paints, since they don't melt into each other. I just had a brain-fart/"brilliant idea" overwhelm my base knowledge. I had planned to photo them and post them here when I got back yesterday, before the paint failures. Now, I'll photo them showing the damage, and, hopefully, again after I've repainted them. Too bad. I really like the paint jobs I'd done. I think they were my best so far. Oh, well, I need the painting practice anyway. Edited June 5, 2008 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 What would have happened if you would have done a coat of D2T between the aluminum paint and the Createx? Or a clear coat of some kind between them that maybe the Createx could adhear to? I guess what I am getting at is the idea is brilliant! Do you really want to just give up so soon? Is there maybe a different solution? I am definately no paint expert but you have a great idea here that seems to just maybe have a little problem. Might want to toss around a few ideas on the board before throwing the idea out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) I had thought about that, but am afraid the epoxy would just float over the aluminum paint, instead of bonding to it. The same thing that makes it so shiny makes it slick, so there's no mechanical adhesion. I did see that crazy glue bonds to the paint (that's what I used on the water to seal the wood temporarily so I could keep throwing the lures), so maybe I'll coat one with that before I continue my paint scheme. But it darkens the silver. I may also make a test with epoxy directly over the aluminum paint. Knowing me, I'll lose patience with the process, and go back to my old way. But getting some of the foil effect without the work is so seductive...... Edited June 5, 2008 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 "But getting some of the foil effect without the work is so seductive" I agree!!! Thats why I hated to see you give up so quick. Still a great thought though. But just thinking out loud (or in this case through my keyboard) foil is a slick surface and yet epoxy adheres to it. What could the difference be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 That makes sense. I'll give it a shot. I'm going to try to post pics of my damaged lures: These are 6" lures, a crappie and a trout, that I caught fish on yesterday. As you can, hopefully, see, the epoxy came off where I hit the rocks, and the Createx came with it, leaving the rattle can aluminum base coat. I'm sorry the pics are so small. I've taken the damaged lures apart, removed the epoxy that was lose, and sanded down the damaged sections with 600 grit. I'm going to wipe them down with alcohol (denatured, not beer), and repaint them tomorrow. I'm too tired tonight after finally figuring out how to post pictures again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I just posted six of this type of bait in the gallery, and the pictures are bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Awesome Baits! I see why your bummed. I wish one of our resident expert painters would jump in here. Because that would be sooooo much easier than foil, like you were saying earlier. I have been thinking about it for a couple hours now and I cant think of a reason why epoxy would stick to foil and not the slick surface on the paint. But there must be a reason. Is there any chance that it was just a bad spot on the bait? Did you notice when you were sanding it off to repair if it wanted to chip more or not? How many coats of epoxy did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 MT, I don't think the bond between the epoxy and the paint failed. It was the bond between the water based paint and the aluminum spray paint. When the epoxy peeled off, it exposed the aluminum base paint, and the Createx was still on the underside of the epoxy. I think your idea of epoxying over the aluminum before painting on the Createx scheme may work. I just don't know if I'd have to scuff up the epoxy, which would ruin the shine of the silver aluminum paint. As I said before, I'm going to do a test. Just not tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Mark, It happened to me too. I have a gold effect rattle can. It says on the label that you are not allowed to cover the paint with laquer. I did this, and the gold effect went off. Same happens if you rub the paint with anything. Gold effect (and I guess aluminium as well) means that small particles of "gold" stay on the surface, but they are not bond together very well, or to the surface. And if you use any bonding stuff on top of it, you will loose the gold or silver effect. I think this is the real problem, and not the fact that you cannot bond the gold(silver) to another coat of paint. To solve this problem, I used a clear acrilic rattle can spray over the gold. But mind you, if you use it normally (from a quantitative point of view) you will loose the metal effect. You have to use it very quickly, just a high speed pass over, and the clear will not cover every spot on the lure. After cure, you repeat this operation several times. You might loose some of the metal effect though. But some will remain. Now you have a surface on which you can paint. Or add a coat of epoxy. I don't have an airbrush, but I think you can do a better job of covering the metal effect paint with a clear through an airbrush, than you can do with a rattle can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 in the past i tried the aluminum paint. i had adhesion problems with flake and peel. what type of aluminum are you using.. for me i changed to silver leaf paint to get the effect, for my tennesee shads, . its all lacquer based. i hope this helps a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Woodie, The paint brand name is "Tough 'n tone", and it's manufactured by an outfit called ROC out of Illinois. It contains toluene, acetone, and xylene. What brand of lacquer paint are you using? Is it the kind of silver leaf available at hobby stores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 i use a lacquer based goldleaf and silver leaf from dynamics paint. i think its available in the u.s. it comes in small jars and up to quarts. i never have the flake peel problem. i remember my lesson well. i had to re-do 100 cranks for a fellow i painted for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 100 cranks! Ouch!!!! That must have hurt. I can see where you'd probably remember that one. I just repainted the baits that peeled, and put a second coat on the ones that didn't. I'm going to try not to introduce them to any more rocks, if I can help it. Since they are sectional, and only some of the sections got messed up, I was able to only repaint those, which made my job a lot easier. I'll try and post some before and after pics later today or tomorrow. I'm going fishing right now. Priorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captsully18 Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Mark, have you thought of using e-tex as a coating over the aluminum? Createx adheres well to the e-tex. I use e-tex over foil on the foil baits I've done and then used Createx over that and had no problems. I also use Dick Nites as a clear coat exclusively now after having problems with D2T chipping and peeling. Just my .02. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Thanks for the idea David. I went back to Krylon primer, and Createx pearl silver, and let it go at that. I'm too lazy to add more steps than I already have, but it's good to know that Createx Evirotex will bond to Envirotex. Gives me another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 I have a better option for you Mark. Try using Auto Air series 4100 Aluminum Base (Fine). It is extremely reflective, even more so than the Createx pearl silver. It is made from finely ground aluminum in a binder. Use a blow drier to heat set it before painting over it with your other colors. I think you'll find the resulting finish more than shiny enough when the sun hits it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Snax, Is Autoair paint water based? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Yes it's water based Mark. I use it exclusively now and love it. I recommend reducing it with the Auto Air 4011 series reducer. Build it up with light coats. I suggest spraying it over a white base coat for faster coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Thanks Snax. My son got his car stolen up at Santa Cruz, while he was surfing, and my credit card was in his wallet, so I reported it stolen and B of A canceled it. As soon as I get my replacement card, I'm going to order some Autoair paints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 New credit card's here, Auto Air ordered, they found my son's car undamaged with everything of his still in it except his wallet and the stereo. And he got it back on his birthday. I told him to take his sweetie out for dinner to celebrate, on me! That kid lives a charmed life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
