Custom mold, or customize a mold?

[Shortlite]

Hi guys.

I am in the process of designing a jighead to suit UL and L tackle saltwater angling, using heavier gauge Aberdeen style hooks.

I figure I'll have to customize a mold to accept the slightly heavier gauge wire, or have a mold custom made. In addition, I want to have a "holder" style keeper setup (I think that's what it's called), which is the sharp cone. Preferably 2 or 3 cones on the shaft. I find this style of keeper holds soft plastic lures best. It's like the LunkerGrip cones on lunker city jigheads, or what you see on annular ring roofing nails.

Problem is no molds I have seen available employ this style of keeper. Now, I have my design sketched out, and with basic dimensions. Dimensions will be tweaked to give the size leadheads I want.

Appreciate any help you can give.

Best regards,

Ted..

PS. I am in Australia..

[heavycover]

Call this guy:

Chuck Vanover

Tight Line Anglers Products

PH. 440-277-1511

Fax 440-277-9152

[Shortlite]

Thanks heavycover. Any other options? Would it be possible to make a mold to do some rough casts to tweak the design? So far it's the keeper that's proving the main problem. It just seems that not many jigheads use that style of keeper much.

[heavycover]

Chuck will design the mold exactly to your specs. Only after you approve will the final production mold be built.

[kelly]

A dremel tipped on its side (45) with a cylinder cutting tip will cut the keepers. But if you want to sell them take heavycover advice. I have had a lot of luck customizing molds. Good luck.

[Shortlite]

Thanks for that. Which cutting tip is that? Is it the little one like a dovetail cutting bit? I have a pointed cone bit, but I think that's just the pointed engraving bit. I guess I could just start shallow and make the cuts a bit deeper until I get a good depth and even keeper height.

At this stage I don't think I'll be selling them. Fishing UL in the salt really kicks your arse as far as attrition to your jighead box. The better jigs here are available on Gamakatsu hooks, which are a bit big for some lures. They also cost nearly 2 dollars per jighead (9 bucks for a pack of 5). I got some really good, smaller hooks and want to cast my own.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Shortlite

[sagacious]

If you're not going to sell them, the modifications you're describing (increasing the hook channel for a heavier wire hook, and adding keeper rings to the jig collar), are all easily done by hand with simple tools.

A variable-speed hand drill with the appropriate-size bit will cut the hook channel, and as noted by others, a dremel with a cylinder cutting tip will cut the keepers. Go slow and plan-out your work before cutting.

Good luck!

[Shortlite]

Thanks again. What Dremel bit is the one you guys are recommending? If you could give me a model number I would be greatly thankful.

Anyone have experience using the bits to open out the cavities to change head shape? I would be looking to shift the hook position forward in the lead also. My design is not a standard shape, nor does my target weights fall into standard sizes. The hooks I have are also just a little different from your regular Aberdeen.

At this rate, custom I know can deliver, but the additonal expense is quite high. If there was an easy way to make a mold for casting lead, then I would try that. Maybe I should just let the bloomin' cat out of the bag and put up a sketch, hook (with sizes), desired weights and basic design ideas so we can all brainstorm about it.

[sagacious]

Thanks again. What Dremel bit is the one you guys are recommending? If you could give me a model number I would be greatly thankful.

That bit should be available at any hardware store that carries dremel accessories. You're familiar with the pointed engraving bit-- this one isn't pointed, it's just a cylinder. You can't miss it.

If your store needs to order it, check the dremel website, and you should be able to find the bit you need.

Anyone have experience using the bits to open out the cavities to change head shape? I would be looking to shift the hook position forward in the lead also. My design is not a standard shape, nor does my target weights fall into standard sizes. The hooks I have are also just a little different from your regular Aberdeen.

There's no mold available in the shape/size/weight you want? Your project will require an investment of time and resources, so before you start, be sure you're not trying to re-invent the wheel.

I believe others have modified the cavity shape with a dremel tool, but I have not attempted this. That is a task that requires considerable planning, patience, and skill, and runs the risk of damaging/ruining your design-- or the mold itself. If the cavity requires quite a bit of modification, it's often less work to just make a separate mold.

At this rate, custom I know can deliver, but the additonal expense is quite high. If there was an easy way to make a mold for casting lead, then I would try that. Maybe I should just let the bloomin' cat out of the bag and put up a sketch, hook (with sizes), desired weights and basic design ideas so we can all brainstorm about it.

Opening the hook channel and cutting 'keepers' is simple, but it seems that you have a considerable amount of mold modification in mind. If you're not experienced with mold design or modification, you may want to do just that-- post some sketches and you'll get more accurate advice. At this point, all we can do is just guess at basic design considerations, such as if your design is feasible at all.

[cadman]

Shortlite.

Sagacious and others are right on here. Here is some advice if you intend on doing this yourself. I have modified a lot of molds. However I am a designer, and I use (3) cad packages to design. The reason I’m stating this is this. This is how I go about modifying molds. You have to think this whole process through. #1. Layout the details you want to modify on a piece of paper drawing it 1:1 scale (I draw on a computer). This has to be accurate, as you will need to transfer this image to both mold halves. If you are going to do this to multiple cavities, and they are different sizes, then you need to take scaling as a factor, if you want to keep everything proportional. #2. Once you have it drawn, place your drawing over your cavity and trace it out carefully. I use dye chem. (a blue transfer ink) on the mold, and use an exacto blade to trace. The exacto blade will scratch the dye chem. And leave you a clean visible line. #3. You now can transfer this image to the other half of the mold, by previously etching locating points on both mold halves. #4. Once you have your details transferred, I personally use a utility knife and hobby files for detailed work and a dremel to hog out cavities for hook eyes, swivels and any other features that do not need fine detail. The reason I don’t use a dremel for everything is this. Dremel tools have a tendency to wander, especially if you catch an existing corner. Even with a steady hand, you can screw up a mold (but there is fixes for f:censored:k ups also, it’s called J B Weld). You’re now done. Some things to note. a) Check your cutting regularly. Check your dimension regularly. c) Make sure everything is aligned and on center. d) Check your fit regularly with the mold closed. e) Lastly take your time…. Finally, all of this seems like a lot of work, yes it is. The question you have to ask yourself, like lot of the responses you got here. Are you doing this to try to learn how to modify molds, and quality isn’t that big of a deal? Or do you intend on selling these after you are done? If they are easy details to cut go for it. In the long run it’s cheaper to have a custom shop make you a mold, as they can easily scale different size cavities once the initial profile is done, and the accuracy is second to none. Just some of my past experience and my worth. Ted (Cadman)

Edited June 22, 2008 by cadman

[Shortlite]

Thank you so much for the insight guys. While I don't think I have bitten off more than I can chew, holding cards to my chest and being a bit vague ain't helping.

Now, the cylinder bit, on it's side and at 45 degrees won't cut the keeper I am looking for. It'll cut a triangular ridge. The conical engraving bit will give the shape I want if you consider it's axis as the hook shank.

Here's what I am looking for:

Bullet head, 3/16, 1/8, 3/32 and 1/16 oz.

Hook: Mustad 32833BLN salmon/steelhead jig hook, sizes 2, 4, 6. These are stouter wire, and have a shorter eye leg than regular aberdeens.

Keeper barb like the Lunker City lunker grip cones. Also seen on the Berkley Nitro jigheads available here in Australia. 2 or 3 grip cones.

Now the bullet head molds I've seen take 60 degree jig hooks. Even in the smaller sizes the jig hooks are too heavy in wire. There aren't bullet heads made that small. The keepers are not the style I want.

With the 32833, the shorter eye leg puts the hook eye in the same position as a 60 degree hook. I am trying to get the hook eye slightly further forward, so as to be closer to the middle of the bullet head.

I've been looking at this for a very long time. While it may be good to learn to customise a mold, it's ultimately not what I'm after. I want to make some jigheads for a small group of us. Not for sale, for our own use. I anticipate over time I would want to make quite a few, so that is why I wanted to invest in a mold. Looks like getting one custom made is the logical choice.

Here's a quick sketch I knocked up with Paint. Hope it's big enough to see.

[cadman]

I saw your sketch. I see no problem with the bullet part or where the shank of the hook goes in the mold. Your problem lies in trying to get your barbs, concentric and consistant. My personal opinion is that you will not achieve this by doing it by hand. This needs to be done with a casting, or other form of mold making, even machining can not get into those squared off corners by the barb, and then flared out. But then again I could be wrong. I would like to hear from others for my own knowledge on how this can be done.

[Shortlite]

Well, it can be done, because production jigs like the Gamakatsu, Nitro, Lunker City, even some cheapies have similar cone setups. You're quite right in that the problem is to get them consistent and concentric, which is why my attention was to the barb design.

I was thinking of a casting too. Read about the high temp silicone RTV moulds: sounds like the ticket, but I'll have to knock up a couple masters first. Don't think I could set that up for higher volume pouring unless I made a few molds though. Anyone used stuff like QuickSil, or RTV for leadheads? How well does the material work: flow, heating, etc?

[sagacious]

Thank you for the drawing, Shortlite. Well, after some consideration, I agree with Cadman's assessment: you'll likely need to have a custom mold made for your design, especially if you wish to have it exactly match your drawing.

Now, that's not what I might do. I'd take the Do-it darter-head mold, which has the hook eye in the same location you want, and very carefully cut 'conical' keepers with the Dremel 116 bit. That would give me 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, and 3/8oz jigs with the balance you want; the hook eye where you want it; and the keepers you want. Done. The Mustad 32833bln should fit fine.

Again, that's what I would do, but that wouldn't exactly match your drawing perfectly. However, it would indeed be very close to what you're looking for in terms of overall balance, shape, appearance, and function. Should be close enough for gov't work, and the fish might not even notice the difference! That would save considerable time and expense, and leave more time for fishing and testing your design.

Hope this helps, good luck with your project!

[Shortlite]

Thanks Sagacious. I initally looked at the darter, the bullet, and the bullet nose molds. The darter and bullet seem a little too pointed: I am after what looks like a blunt bullet, like the egghead but with a flat back end. Reason being I don't want extreme darting action when the bait is twitched, just a little.

As for cutting with a Dremel bit, I think that would definitley work with a little cleanup afterwards, with the 125 to give me sharper edged cones.

Custom it may be. Will keep looking and thinking. Thanks for the help. If anyone gets this done I wants me some free jigs!!!LOL!!

[kelly]

Wow alot can be answered in one day. I agree, have at it. One tip to match up to two sides is stick a wire where you want to cut the holders and tap on the mold (closed) with a hammer. Then there will be a grove to follow on both sides. After you think you are finished pour your lead in and find anything not matching up and fix it. One mold I have cut from scratch is a 1/8 diameter nail on a 3/0 hook with the keepers you show in the pic. When the grub is on you can't see the hook. The reason I did that is it would fall flat instead of falling nose first. So I know they can be cut with a dremel. Another tool that might help is a engraver that you wright your name on tools. Take one of your old 1/8 bits from your dremel and grind a cutting edge on the end put it in the engraver and just push in the direction you want to go, cuts smooth on the aluminum.

[kelly]

One more tip cut on a 2x4 two see what it looks like first. Before you learn on the metal.

[Shortlite]

Cheers Kelly. Great tip there.

Do-It do use the holder style keeper. It's on the roundhead model "Gamakatsu hooks".

Maybe I could open out the cavity on a 1/16 darter, cut the keeper, and see how that would work. There was also the minnow head that I reckon could have the sides on the cavity opened a bit more, with the spherical cutting bit.

For now though, I think I'll try and cut a master and do an RTV mold of it to test out.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Shortlite

[reeves]

Shortlite,

For the RTV molding material, I might recommend Smooth-On. They have a fantastic product at a very reasonable price to accomplish what you are going to do. You can Google their website, I think it is Mold Making, Mold Rubber and Casting Resins From Smooth-On , but not for sure. They have some excellent videos also on how to use their product. Once you get your model the way you want it, make a mold using the RTV, you will be pleased.

Good luck.

[sagacious]

Thanks Sagacious. I initally looked at the darter, the bullet, and the bullet nose molds. The darter and bullet seem a little too pointed: I am after what looks like a blunt bullet, like the egghead but with a flat back end. Reason being I don't want extreme darting action when the bait is twitched, just a little.

...

I hear ya. I use the same size darter heads for bonefish and tropical species. With a plastic tail on the jig, it doesn't dart, it just hops. If you tie on a light hair tail, then it starts to dart a bit. Either way catches fish for me.

With a small jig like say, 1/16oz, once you paint it, and especially if you paint and then epoxy, the small details are reduced. Those conical keepers will have the forward/inside radius rounded-out by the epoxy, and the sharp edges are dulled (at least that happened with mine, but I expect others will report the same). The exact shape of the head, the 'squareness' at the back of the jighead, etc, are very likely to prove negligible once you slide on a plastic body. Concentrating exclusively and idealistically on those smaller details may mean missing the forest for the trees.

I've done a few projects with small darter/bullet-head jigs, such as adding a ball collar for tying on hair or nylon skirts, or modifying the mold to pour eye-recesses for 3-D eyes, or increasing the hook channel to accomodate a larger hook. Sometimes, if the project becomes too complicated, it may become impractical and frustrating. If you've been thinking about this project for a long time, as you mentioned, you might do well to take what molds are already available, modify them, and press them to your needs, as opposed to expending a whole lot of elbow grease and money to, essentially, make a difference with no practical distinction. I hope you see what I'm saying. Believe me, I've been there myself on more than one occasion.

That's just a few words to the wise. Hope your project works out, and you and your mates catch a heap of fish. Best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress!

[Shortlite]

Won't be painting these heads mate: waste of paint and epoxy. Salty tropicals here are very hard on gear: I've got a few jigheads with teethmarks deep into the lead, right to the hook shank!

We use soft plastic stickbaits a lot, and with a darter head they dart side to side quite a lot. A more up and down action with more subtle side to side movement better imitates little shrimp kicking to the surface, and keeps the jig tracking a bit straighter, which often drive fish to strike just because they can catch up easier before the jig gets to the surface.

Not too concerned with keeping sharp edges, such as those at the back of the head. The keepers though, I'd want to get as close as possible. The pic is pretty much the final shape. Blunter than the darter, 2 holder collars.

Thanks for all the help. I'll look into the RTV silicone molds, make a few heads, then I will customise a mold. If I screw up the mold, I'm only out 35 bucks, and I'll be able to play with some JB Weld to half a$$ fix it!

Edited June 23, 2008 by Shortlite