challenger Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I was just wondering what would be a good cnc machine to do some of my own molds . I know they are not cheap but A freind from our bass club would partner with me and he wants to use it for his shop.any help is greatly apreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 For aluminum? Cant help, the tolerances needed are so exact, you might want to find one or 2 more investors, no disrespect, I have no idea what kind of coin you have to play with, but remember the machine is only half the process, software is a real consideration. I've spoke to a couple of guys about retrofitting a taig or sherline mill & they said don't bother, it's a waste of money. Good luck & report back if you have any success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBRA Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 mitsu daewoo the list goes on, tons of cnc's out there.def. not cheap. talk to rigging companies and find auctions near you. most rigging companies can point you in the direction of auctions for machining companies that have gone out. you will pay markey price based on year condition size ect. what state are you from? there are some real junk out there and some really nice machines but you get what you pay for. also consider the cad program and computer ect and setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike-A-Pike Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 The actual CNC mill is one part and, as redg8r said, the software is the other. For most of us, buying the software is just part of the issue... You'll still need to learn the software and that will take some time and practice. You may want to hold off buying the software until you actually can get some training on it; and that may take on matters of it's own. Check with local technical schools and community colleges for courses on CNC and take at least an intro course if its your first attempt in this area. While you are a student, you may be able to buy quality software at a Student Discount or at lease find out what your software needs to include to do the type of work you plan to attempt. Do your homework before you put out the big dollars for equipment that collects dust or software that doesn't fill your needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 spike, the software for cadcam you wont be allowed to use it in commercial or machine shop setting if you get a school discount on it. there is also a yearly maintence on the software) new versions bug fixes etc etc. the yearly maintence runs anywere from 3k a month to 8k a month. cad/cam companies are very protective of this. my daughter was going to goto school to help me with programming, we figured she could get a discount. all was fine and it was a decent discount. but in the agreement and terms it stated no commerical use it was for training only. so the software was at full price of $11,900 and these companies do keep tract of everything.l decent mold software cad/cam will run about 7-18,000 with yearly maintence fees of 3000-8000 per year. training runs 500-1000 per day, just because you spent 10k on software they dont train you. one other quick note, the software doesnt make the part for you, its tons of work. you still need to know machining and how it works. if you dont you just killed your machine and your bank account. the biggest mistke in these schools is not teaching machining before programming, everyone thinks they can program and in reallity only only about .5% that come from programming schools can actually work in a machine shop enviroment with out causeing major damage and problems. I used to train people programming in this state Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 When someone is that secretive it makes me wonder just what they are protecting. Is it just their corner of the market or is it the fact that what you are paying for is not worth the money you have to shell out. I don't know anything about CNC, but this all sounds quite fishy(excuse the pun) to me. What is it that makes it worth all the money and effort? www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) When someone is that secretive it makes me wonder just what they are protecting. Is it just their corner of the market or is it the fact that what you are paying for is not worth the money you have to shell out. My opinion, neither.......... Yes it's very competitive, why? because the function is fundamental, cut in 3 axis. The software is just as, if not more crucial a choice. the software is what companies try & protect. One of my first industrial jobs was working in a door factory that housed 5 cnc machines with a 12ft sq. cutting bed. when one of the machines went down, they had to fly a tech in from Hong Kong. because no one in america can service that machine. I use drafting/design (CAD) software in my shop that is capable of outputting gcode (but I dont have a cnc). the software itself is @ $12,000 & its considered one of the most affordable in the industry, I rent it instead. They send me a USB key that must be inserted into the computer before the software will even execute. to re-rent the software key every month I have to call them for a 30 digit alphanumeric code to keep the software running. I pass them the code on my pc & they input that & generate me a new one . You should hear us on the phone passing this code.. (Alpha, niner, 1 ,0 ,2, bravo) Edited June 29, 2008 by redg8r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COBRA Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 its just technology and the time the companies have put into these systems. i used to do top fuel block repair, and we also made fuel and oil pumps. everything was cnc on the pumps. the software allows you to design and scale everything, but you have to know how to write it and draw it in the program. then you have to know how to input that into the actual cnc itself and use all the tooling and program that in. then your tooling and setup and fixtures just to have the blank piece of metal held in the machine. very long process to learn and a lot to know. my old boss would come over to the cnc and throw it on manual and be punching x-y-z axis and tooling and all sorts of stuff would make my head spin. i can run a cnc but not go in depth with any programming or problem solving. thats why to go injected is so ridiculous. even if you have someone like del make the molds, you still have the cost of the injection machine. tons of overhaed and then you best have a good marketing scheme to get those baits out and selling to cover up the costs. figure you are selling a pack of baits for $3.50 and you have $40,000.00 into molds and time and injection process and supplies, thats 11,429 bags of product you have to sell before you break even and start to think of a proffit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike-A-Pike Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Delw, I agree. What I was thinking of was just seeing if there is any aptitude for the actual programming aspect itself. I cannot tell you how many college students where going into computer programming in the mid-1990s and how many majors got changed to basket weaving. It's like so many things; knowledge doesn't equal skill. a basic grasp in the theory of internal combustion engines doesn't make you qualified to rebuild a 2008 5.7 HEMI. A running joke on the flight line was, "Some folks shouldn't be allowed to own tools, let alone actually use them..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 That would be funny Bruce, if it wasn't so true. I knew a guy once that could spell hammer but that was as far as it went.lol A fellow would think that with all these "closet" puter brains out there, that one of them would get into this. I mean if they can hack into NASA writing a CNC program would be a snap. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Everything that has been written in this thread is true, but grossly overstated in places. Because we are not trying to machine the parachute release mechanism for the next generation space shuttle, then we probably won’t need to purchase a $100,000+ machine. Also, you are going to feel like your not making the most of your 8’x4’ CNC router table if your cutting a mold for a 3” crank body. The fact is that there are many smaller sized machines out there at a fraction of the cost of the ‘big boys’, that possibly could get the job you want, done. They are out there on the WWW and most have associated member web sites for users, just like TU, where you can ask questions and get dodgy answers. Research is the key and make sure you get ALL the answers before moving to the next step. As for software. Again, true. This stuff is very expensive at the sharp end of the industry. But, for some simple 3-axis machining g-code and a little CAD modeling, I’m sure there are a lot of choices that come a bit more wallet friendly. The machines that I checked out, mostly offer compatible software as an extra or even part of the deal. True, NASA probably don’t use these for their space flight R+D program, but there again, what do they know about fishing lures. I am not suggesting that pirate software is a good idea either, apart from being a bit illegal, you don’t know what these little hacker nasties have added to the code for their own entertainment. But if you are just looking for yourself, no big company is going to come knocking at your door, at least they haven’t found me yet, nor the huge Chinese car company that I am indirectly working for. Yes, they are blatantly using pirate software, they are not the only large Chinese car company doing it either. Ironically, the company that I am working for, IS paying and paying BIG. True, if you decide to go ahead, regardless of how much you spend, you have got some hours of studying ahead of you, CAD modeling, G code programming, machining techniques. You are also going to break stuff, Just try to preserve at least a couple of fingers for ordering drinks. Mostly, you have to ask the question WHY? Because I could not answer this question satisfactorily, I set aside the project for now, but re-appraise the situation occasionally, usually when a thread like this one comes along. There are three things that I was personally looking for: Speed, accuracy and labor/time saving. It is not really going to help you with the speed. By the time you have read the first chapter of the CAD manual, in fact, in the time it has taken me to write this post, I could have carved a master. So speed, definitely not. Accuracy. Yes, the two halves will be perfectly symmetrical, at least until you started manually polishing off the machining marks. They do not come off the machine nice and shiny, that process takes time, effort, care, experience and skill. Yes, two halves, that’s the best you are going to achieve with 3-axis CNC. As for time/labor saving, I think I have adequately covered that in the two previous paragraphs. I still want one, but I’m still not convinced for my applications at this time. Send a PM to Rossrods, he has been doing some work with small CNC machines. Try a Google on maxnc. I have heard their after sales service is not too good, but it is a good place to start your research. I wish you lots of luck and if you do move forward with this project, I would like to hear of your progress, post or PM me. My best advice is to read up on RTV and what it can do for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I wasn't suggesting that someone get a hacker to write code for them; I was just commenting that it can't be that big of a secret. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Nova. Nothing directed towards your post. In the world of computers and electronics, CNC is very low-tech. What commands the big bucks, as DelW explained, is experience of the engineer operating the system. Just grasping the very basics is not that difficult, but the experience to get it right first time, every time, can take many years. But we are only cutting a few body molds using 3-axis. Providing we accept that a few mistakes are going to be made, possibly the odd expensive mistake too. Then CNC is very do-able to anyone with the aptitude to learn and a good feel for engineering. It's not for everyone. An evening course in a local tech college, as mentioned earlier in this thread, would be a very good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Definition:- "progress"- man's ability to complicate the uncomplicated. Not suggesting that 3 axis enginering isn't; I'm just saying that in general the definition is true. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Accuracy. Yes, the two halves will be perfectly symmetrical, at least until you started manually polishing off the machining marks. They do not come off the machine nice and shiny, that process takes time, effort, care, experience and skill. Yes, two halves, that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 vodkaman a 8' x 4' table cnc machine would run over a million not 100,000. the 100k machines are roughly 16"x 20" or 20"x40" used they are about 50kfor a decent one. thats over 10 years old. Jerry all machine built no adays are within .00005 repeatability, the problem is after a few years of running they become sloppy very sloppy. HAAS is the worse fadal is next tahts why these machines sell for 50k when they are 8 years old. a mazak matusra and a few others are built better but buying one of these will cost you about 200k new vs 80k new and they will hold there value for years cause they hold size for years. buying a used machine is like going to the baja1000 and buying one of the trucks after the race to use for a daily driver. your going to sink a ton of money into it just to keep it running. Also running bait molds on a machine is the worse abuse you can do to a machine because the lines are so short and you run fast feeds and there are thousands of them. its esentually running a jack hammer on your precision machine. a typical mold program is about 1/3 of a meg of just lines thats just X Y Z on each line with a number after eash one. think how many pages of just text it will take to make 1/3 of a meg. thats how many thousand lines of code (movement) run the machine for one program Bobby I and shawn are about 300% too cheap on our molds, if we didnt have areospace/or to commercial work to help I am betting we wouldnt be doing it. I know I wouldnt I could guarentee it. even if I had the machine in my house and had no over head I couldnt make enough money to pay for the payments on a new cheap machine ( the 80k+ ones) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubinator Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Check out align-rite tools. They make 3-d scanners along with other machining tools that might work for you. They also will scan your master and generate a code then you can send it off to someone else to cut the mold on their mill. For me scanning and then milling the piece was a shorter learning curve to actually producing a product then designing the piece in 3-d software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artificial All The Way Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 BUY a CNN for a couple little parts. That Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Check out align-rite tools. They make 3-d scanners along with other machining tools that might work for you. They also will scan your master and generate a code then you can send it off to someone else to cut the mold on their mill. For me scanning and then milling the piece was a shorter learning curve to actually producing a product then designing the piece in 3-d software. it would take 6 years to mill a simple worm in alum with there mills you would have to have a feed rate of about .002 inches per min. which is about 99.998 inches per min too slow. there scanner is junk, bobcad has a jpg covertor which is better however you still have a ton of programming to do and its not 3d. in order to do it semi half &^% you buy a min of a manual CMM and the siiftware to into points or write a small program in excel to decifer the points and input them into your cad /cam program. AATW good idea on the trial version as far as seieng of they will work for your application. bobcad has a 30 day trial , the bigger more expensive programs give you 2 weeks. however I dont reccomend that you set your PC back you can get in trouble for that. shops can't sell there old software or they will loose there seat licence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubinator Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 yea well, you know what they say about opinions.... I've had the wolverine 3 for about 10yrs now and I've made at least 100 X the money I spent on it. And it's still running strong. You crack me up with your opinion on bobcad. Now there's a good joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Whats a wolverine 3. Dude bobcad calls me every day. the software started at 5k then it goes down to 1k . during the trial period I had some simple questions, it took 6 months to get the right answer with phone calls back and forth. I have the last 3 lastest version, they keep tellnig me I really need to buy the current one. again it started at 3k then down to 1k. but a buddy of mine got it for 375 bucks from the same salemen I deal with.(these are for upgrades not a new version) a mold in bobcad will use about 75% more lines of code then real software, if you know how to manipulate it you can cut the code in half. it takes more work to make the code as well, it has some nice features and thats why I have it there are some things that it does that highend software wont do with out alot of macros. I was told by a internet friend that uses bobcad and is a whiz with it,that this was a mistake in bobcad trying to do something else and it worked well for people so they kept it ( which is a good thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I Just looked it up, that machine only weighs 120 lbs my kurt double lock vise weighs near that, theres no rigidity there what does something like that cost? I was looking at the elite on org. post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Tub, one other thing, I am not really knocking the machine, I just can't see how a light machine would do that type of work, I am used to machine shop enviroments ie big machines sturdy machines and fast machines. whats funny is after I looked at the wolverine and posted. I walked out to the shop to load the mill, had to also load one of my ominturns. My omniturn has the same table basically as the wolverine III and weight how every its bolted to a 4000lb base that has the spindle built in. its one of the best 1 operation screw machines around. anyhow I took that table years ago and mounted it to a full size hand mill to run some brass mill parts on a 2000 pcs brass job with one tool. had to do some wierd programming to get it to work for a mill but it did,it worked just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubinator Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Yup, Bobcad is always on the phone when they are trying to sell you something, and not when you need a question answered. That's the joke! I wouldn't send a newbie there or recommend any part of their stuff. I threw away $1100.00 on the lastest software earlier this year, trash canned it after a month of playing with it. It's still 3rd rate software. My wolverine 3 weigh's alot more than 120lbs, it might not move as fast as your mill but then again most of the stuff I've been cutting I've been using .001 to .005 profile bits. In 1998 I bought the mill for around 9 grand with a few upgrades added on later. The cad/cam software I use was 11 grand and now sells for 13. Delw, when was the last time you checked out their laser scanner? Anyway, my point was that if the original poster was looking for a 100 to 200 thousand $ cnc setup asking about it on a lure making forum isn't the most logical thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Wolverine III this is the one you have right? thats a small bit, I couldnt run that on my cnc if I had too. I think the smallest I have ever run for endmills was like .010 and what a nightmare to get that job running. I never physically saw there scanner just heard from guys who have bought them or no people that bought them, I noticed they are in tucson its only a few hours away I should go check one out. I think I know Matt Dunne and Don Coombs just can't remember from where there name sounds very familiar. The local guys here were trying to sell me a scanner last month when I was looking into a newer CMM but it was like 75k I about had a stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
