Site Expansion & the future of TU (Poll)

[cadman]

Reading all these posts to what everyone is saying is understandable. I

[jimbo]

I,ve often wondered why and how you guys did this with no fees. Yes i like TU the way it is, but nothing lasts forever, you got a yes vote from me, if i don,t like what happens over the next year i simply won,t renew(hope that doesn,t happen) Whatever happens i wish you all, the best of luck with this hugh step forward.

JIMBO

[smartbassu]

Hi guys,

I'm a relatively new member here and would like to add some input from my perspective if I may.

First of all, That is some impressive cabinet work! I know because I've done custom woodworking.

I googled luremaking and found a few sites and almost payed a good bit of money for what I now know was just the basics. I found this site and more information than I have been able to digest. I believe the idea of limited access to non-members in order to wet their appetite is excellent.

I believe redg8r has done an impressive job with this site especially since it's part time. If he could do this full time I predict the results would be outstanding.

Sites will always have a change in membership. Some people will decide they have learned all they can and move on but you will always have new members coming in. The site should keep growing and improving so the members continually have something new and interesting to them, thus they stay longer.

As for the view of a novice. Well I haven't yet contributed much because I'm still at the learning stage. Which means that I know so little it seems like everything has been covered or discussed before. I have jumped into luremaking and do intend on selling lures but I still feel (especially when I see the works of Art in the gallery) that I have nothing to contribute to the forum. In my defense I plan on contributing as soon as I feel I have something new and helpful to everyone.

As for stealing ideas that is going to happen in the lure business. There is no way to stop it. All you can do is carve your niche and develope a name for yourself. Case in point: How many poppers are on the market that are identical to the Pop-R? The only way to keep your lure secret is to only fish it yourself by yourself.

I can understand not wanting to tell everyone your secret technique or method that makes your bait special but basic luremaking knowledge should be openly shared.

As for my lures I'm sure if it catches on well enought some big company will make their version. All I can do is carve my niche.

Thanks to everyone here and I for one voted yes because I think the changes sound exciteing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[rhahn427]

I voted yes before I saw the membership rates ......... $60 a year is crazy guys ................ I subscribe to several sites and I gladly pay ............ the most anyone of them charge is $25 bucks ........ sorry guys .... but $60 will kill this site ......... there's great info here and it works but there is not enough readers to charge that much ............. if it ain't broke don't fix it ........ especially for $60 bucks a year .........

PLEASE CHANGE MY VOTE TO NO

[thedude]

i voted no.. and here's why.

I really enjoy this site, but namely for looking at some of the fine work some of the members here produce. I don't make my own baits however and the forum in which i would participate the most is pretty dead most of the time (rod building).

I belonged to a waterfowling site a while back that did something similar and there was a mass exodus when they did. I understand the position the owners of the site must be in - web hosting certainly isn't cheap and it doesn't make sense to spend money out of ones own pocket just to give the rest of us a place to waste our bosses time! In that vein i hope that the site can remain free and an open forum for the sharing of ideas. The fact that certain members are leaving do to "too much information" being released is a little troubling to me. Tackle making and rod building are great hobbies for a lot of people and this place is a great one to learn the trade.. lets keep it that way.

There are lots of guys selling their brand on here - and while i have no issues with that - the model that has worked for countless other forums has been to ask these people to sponsor the board to be able to advertise their product openly on the forum. I try to shop at board sponsors at BBC and other fishing boards i use for this reason.

Edited June 30, 2008 by thedude

[MR KNOW IT ALL KIND OF]

Jerry..

TU STORE!!!! We have alot of talent here on TU!!! Why not make a store all of us can use! All of us could donate items to stock the store.. The money you get could keep the site running.. I know its more complex than just that.. but everything starts with a idea.

I will do whatever you decide.. TU has helped me make more than 60 bucks over the past 2 years.. Let me know where to send the check! The friendship I have made are priceless. But if you want more creative ways to make money without charging members... I think a TU Store would be a great idea.. Heck we could sell stock in the store and all of us have ownership rights. Or do a auction style listings like ebay and charge fees for the items listed.. If you build it they will come!!!! It could be big guys.. or it could flop like my pancakes!

If that doesnt work.. I vote for a TU POKER SITE!!! We could just meet and play Texas holdem at night! Use the rake to pay the dues!

The Rookie

Edited June 30, 2008 by The_Rookie

[redg8r]

PLEASE CHANGE MY VOTE TO NO

Done

[sagacious]

Well, congrats on the continuing succes of TU! Sites like this don't prosper unless they have competent, dedicated management.

However, I must admit to some slight chagrin at the proposed membership fees. I find that I participate considerably more as a contributor than a miner of information. I don't weigh-in with opinions and questions as much as I try to shed some light on areas where my own experience or techniques might be of practical benefit to others. As such, paying a fee to access this great site would, unfortunately, likely be the end of my participation.

I am a moderator on a couple other fishing websites, and I do understand that in this day and age, everything costs money. I was under the (perhaps mistaken) belief that the advertising here covered the site maintenance costs. If the primary reason for the modest membership fees is to force participation of membership, then I am of two minds (both against tho! ).

First, I suspect that there are some who will pay, well, just to be here, and also have considerable knowledge to share. But my guess is that number is fairly low, and will almost surely suffer attrition over time. Without that pool of talent, the quality of the information presented here will suffer. Second, that group who will pay a fee for the ability to access the information and considerable talent here (now), will also surely suffer from attrition. Many tacklemakers/hobbyists want nothing more than to know how to pour a few spinnerbaits and tie a few jigs. Once they have that set of skills, there becomes little reason to remain as an active, membership-dues paying member. If this tendancy for attrition is correct, even in part, the future of TU may not be as rosy as I'd like to hope.

I suspect that many of the 'lurkers' are of the type listed above-- those who only need to acquire a limited repertoir of skills. Also, I suspect that many come here to be inspired-- I certainly am inspired by the fantastic work I see here. That inspiration, I believe, is what makes a young person say, "hey, maybe I could make my own lure and catch a fish on it!" Those are 'newbies' looking for support, encouragement, and also a knowledge base. Those folks are the ones who patronize the advertisers here, who bring a fresh, current feel to the site, and those same starry-eyed lure-making fisherfolks are the future of TU. And those people are perhaps the least likely (as a group) to sign on as paying members.

I have seen several fishing websites enact membership fee schedules in order to actively reduce the membership, while hoping to retain the 'hard-core' members. This invariably has the effect of turning the club into a clique of friends who all know each other, and want someplace to hang-out on the web. The quality and integrity of the site can then become exceedingly hard to mantain without the input of fresh blood, and I'd hate to see that happen here.

I'm not sure exactly what the poll options mean. If expansion = dues, then mark down a no vote for me.

Anyway, best of luck all, and I look forward to the future TU with bated breath.

[Mylures]

Hey Jerry, I voted yes only because if thats what it takes to keep TU growing I'm all for it. We go way back to TM.com before you started TU. I'm very grateful to Tu for all the great people I met and all that I learned and I even contributed a thing or two way back when. As far as being an active member I would have to say I lack there. I like others posted alot at one time. Then I enjoyed seeing other peoples ideas. I only do this as a hobby and I'm happy when I can keep all my ideas and supply costs covered. That can be difficult at times now days. Its a tough world we are living in right now with the high fuel prices that are causing everything to skyrocket. People are losing their jobs right and left to foreign countries. Alot of people are losing their health insurance and other benefits. I'm one of them. You do what you have to do as I think you worked very hard at building this site and maintaining it. I just regret that I won't be a part of it anymore. No hard feelings and I do wish you the best of the best always. Times are changing but thats life. Ken

[outdooradvantage]

I like most love this site, it has helped me in so many different way's it's unbelievable. I would love to do whatever I can to help keep this site going. However I think we can come up with a pletheria of different idea's to raise money for this site. Maybe a one time start up fee? And go from there with advertising and such. If we all put our heads together I'm sure we can do it , and make every member happy. I for one don't plan on leaving this great site. I just think maybe we should all try to work together to find the right solution. With all the great mind's on here it should'nt take long.................Jeff...............

[cheesehead]

Jerry,

I will support you decision on fees for the site, although I do feel that the proposed fee schedule may be a bit high. I have learned loads of information from all the members here and hope to continue doing so. I visit the site quite often (sometimes multiple times each day) one of the reasons I do not post as often is that our other members often beat me to the answer or that the question is out of my leauge.

[psv]

I'm in. I like TU a lot. Great site! Great people! Great ideas!

60$ looks reasonable fee to me. I do jigs, spinners for myself and my fishing buddies. I did them before, I found TU. But with your help and support they are a lot better product then they were earlier. I'm definitely in.

I'm sorry to see some members are about to live.

Regards, PSV

[boomah21]

Im not sure how to vote because mainly in part I see both sides to this coin....I know how much time I spend on this site reading and adding information when I can and dont come close to what most of you put in. I do however think there are ways you/TU could make way more money for growth support etc...than charging a fee.

Charging a fee will see a large decrease in membership (IMO) who knows what innovative ideas and creative styles will never see this site because of a fee. You wont see nearly as many new members which decreases your opportunity for "talent" which is what will continue to make this site successful.

I think that there is a lot of merit in a lure store, donation (money, lures..etc) or other ideas in order to allow this site to grow. I also think that limiting sections to those folks that donate etc is a great idea....I know that after spending countless hours combing threw all the knowledge on this site I would personally donate/pay for video how tos...or a section with plans to build things like duplicators, pour pots and who knows what else.

so in closing i still dont know

[Travis]

Not for sure if the end result of such an action will be a desirable one.

[Palmetto Balsa]

Mixed feelings on this one.

Fees of $60 per year are going to drive too many valuable members away. If this happens then I wouldn't be willing to pay $10 a year.

I for one would love to have a chance to bid on some of my favorite custom lure makers baits. Hardbaits, Jigs, Soft Plastics, custom jig or soft bait molds, Rods, Used but tuned up reel, Spinnerbaits, Custom painted baits, and everything else that is discussed on this site. I would love to donate a bait or two to support the site but I don't think I would pay a $60 fee just to see the membership of the sites most valuable members dwindle to just a few. I would love to be wrong on this one but my gut feeling tells me that I am right.

TU has lots of new talent joining every week and many of them bring fresh and new ideas on a regular basis. I just think that many of the new members that know new tips will have a very tough time paying the dues just to share what they know. I think they join to talk with people that like the same things they do and there will be another site that will pop up in 6 months that will give us a new gathering place.

I don't like the feeling I'm getting as I write this down, but this is what my gut telling me. I think it would only be a matter of time before this would all come crashing down. The immediate success would be nice in the bank account, but I think it would be short lived.

Idea...

Let the members have a avenue to post Items they would like to donate to the site for funding. Set it up as a quarterly event. (something to look forward to) The members participating will be responsible for the delivery of their item, to the winning bidder (no matter where they are located). Only after paypal payment has been made to the site account. Then the site will contact the selling member with the information needed to ship the item. Rods or heavy items will only be available to ship to US bidders. Logistics or details will need to be worked out further. (Note- non members that would like to bid could pay a $? registration fee and to have the right to bid and get a ? week membership. Any member wanting to bid would pay $5 to bid and this amount would be credited to there winning bid if they win, other wise it could go to there fees of $5 per quarter.)

This is just one that came to mind for a way to save the site.

Others that are just learning and don't feel they have a item that is worthy might get credit for winning auction items or just make a donation of $5 per quarter.

I think an idea like this might bring more revenue to the site than a small membership paying $60/yr.

If this would be more work than it's worth then I would like to hear the other ideas to keep the site alive.

My vote is no. The reason I vote no, is for THE FUTURE OF TU. I think the poll might be better worded as.

Yes, I would help support the expansion & future of TU

No, to keep the membership alive with new members and fresh ideas and the wisdom of veteran members.

I love this place and all the friends I have made but... I have more to say but I will finish with... we'll see.

[hazmail]

Count me in Gerry, and thank you and all the back room boys for your efforts. I don't envy you, trying to get money, when we have had it all for free.

I love all the improvements over the past few months, some how, it has all become very compact, and easier to navigate, especially when you have a dodgy mouse like me.

I'm thinking if users have to pay, then maybe 'PayPal', 'BillPay' would be an asset.

It gets up my nose too, when you know some guys are picking brains, and adding nothing but more questions, just so they can sell us back our own ideas - but that's how the world goes round - I have a big mouth and hate keeping secrets.

Good luck with it, I have been promoting it here, so you may get a few more Aussies with shallow pockets.

I was going to email you today, and ask about something (forgot what), maybe I will be able to get it back tomorrow!!pete

[diemai]

I am only a member of TU for a few months now and obviously I am one of those , that don't mind sharing about the results of their work as I am also very happy about other fellow tinkerers to give me input and assistance concerning their own work .

In this rather short period of time I have turned to a true TU addict , but now I am a little scared about the future of this site .

I never intended and still not do to make lures on a commercial scale , in Europe such would a lot harder , as it might be in the USA , anyway .

I am just doing it for my own pleasure and as a senseful leisure time occupation .

I believe , if such an entry fee has to be payed , a lot of people would quit , and there is more than one reason for this :

-why paying for making your knowledge accessible to other people ?

-if being a rather young guy , that never has own income , such a fee might hit hard on your bugdet !

-why paying for something , that one does not know , what about would come out of it ?

If I understood right with my limited knowledge of the English language , the administration work upon TU has by now become way too elaborate and time consuming to get along with it as a volunteerely leisure time affair , but yet has to be achieved in a full time job now , that off course has to provide a living !

Well , if it is so , in my point of view it's a real nasty affair , absolutely not easy to deal with .

As said before , an entry fee would surely minor the number of members by about one quarter(if I hazard a guess) , maybe even up to half !

And the biggest problem is not only the sheer number of members decreasing , rather more its their(sorry to say it like this) quality and usefulness for the entire site .

What I want to say is , when loosing a few "Tow Horses" of the TU waggon , this would render the entire site a lot less attractive for other , less active people , and these would do a damn thing about paying money for such .

I heard about exactly such happened on a German site , though no money was involved , but such "Tow Horses" were somehow driven away by certain behaviour of other members , and later they felt quite sorry , since the site was afterwards just "drifting along" rather than being an interesting , well-frequented source for its community .

Also fresh people coming along would be put off immediately by having to pay admission , in this case only some well thought-off sample pages might possibly help .

So , in my opinion , if it is absolutely essential to rise a financial source , I'd also go for these various ideas about swaps and donations and stuff , but no entry fee .

But he bad thing about this is , that these are far less planable in monetary terms , a fee is a lot easier to foresee in that way , just "number of members X sum of fee = financial budget" .

It really is a great dilemma , indeed !

So , I really don't know , which option to vote for , since I don't believe in an entry fee to do any good .

On the other hand I'd be ready to pay it(for a short period of time at first) , just to see , what would happen , because I like TU and don't wanna miss it .

But if my concerns about less attractivity for me would come true later , I'd quit , wether I like it or not , don't have money to waste these days !

In my opinion there should also be an option for abstention in that poll , also it is not of advantage to show the current results , since these would(and surely will)take influence on the votes .

Anyway , still have some days left to think all over , since it is about the future of a quite important thing to me .

Finally I'd like to say , that one old German proverb , that my long time passed grandma tought me , came to my mind , when I first figured out , what this is all about :

"Bei Geld hört die Freundschaft auf !" , means as much as "concerning money all friendship ends !"

Hoping for the best , Dieter

Edited June 30, 2008 by diemai
adding text

[hazmail]

Gee Gerry, you must have some neat machines in that workshop!! Welcome to www.goodwincustom.com.

The question I was going to ask was, do you know where to get stainless (lockable) turntable bearings?? Hang in there. Pete

[PaulWW36]

Although I have already voted in agreement, I would like to put my side of the story, I am a beginner, I need all you people for ideas and inspiration. I have learnt more from this site than anywhere else and am more than willing to contribute money as I consider I will learn much more than my moneys worth.

I doubt I will ever be in a position to mass produce lures of a good enough quality for sale to anybody else so all your trade secrets are safe !!

You all have to remember we are not all experts and some people (myself especially)need you lot more than you need me !

[Mountain Man 26]

My Mom gave my a fly tying kit 25 years ago and when I caught a trout on a Royal Wulff I had tied, I was hooked for life on tackle making. Alot of old timers helped me out with technique. I would run and show them a new fly that I would tie. I did not give them much information back. There was a reason for that. I did not know a great deal.

Over 2 years ago I bought a kit from Del. One week later when I called back for more plastic, April said, "You're hooked aren't you?" I was and still am. Since joining TU I have learned many techniques for pouring and mixing colors. I have learned how to make my own molds out of POP and seal them. Now in the last two weeks I have started making my own cranks. ALL for personal use. I have never sold a thing. 90% of the knowledge that I have about worms and hard baits I got here in these files of wisdom.

A while back there was a thread about Takers vs. Givers and how some people never give back. What percentage do you want of Not Much! There alot of us who are young in different areas of this hobby, we have nothing to give back. That is why we are listening to what you have to say on the subject we are searching. When I come up with an idea for a divided pouring cup, I will post it. If someone asks about a color that I have a proven mix for, I will post it. If I make my first crank, I will post it, hoping that some vet will point out every flaw that he has the answer to learned the hard way.

I just wanted to stand up for the guy who likes to catch fish on his own lures (and will probobly never sell a one of them) and who is just seeking to learn and then share an idea where he can along the way.

I really enjoy this web site the way it is now. I have learned so much and hope to continue to do so and share what I know when someone asks how to do something that I have the answer to.

Rangers lead the way!

[PaulWW36]

"I just wanted to stand up for the guy who likes to catch fish on his own lures (and will probobly never sell a one of them) and who is just seeking to learn and then share an idea where he can along the way."

Thank you, the begginers appreciaite it !

[Big-D]

I just lost a long exaggerated reply on this post and I'm pissed off!

To sum it up:

-This site is a valuable resource (the way that it is)

-TU makes hobbyists as well as manufacturers better

- I get trustworthy info from people here with specific problems or questions on public posts as well as private messaging

-I share information when I have something to offer

-There is nothing wrong with trolling for customers, but I don't like the direction you are wanting to go b/c I only make baits for a select few FRIENDS. I barter alot with my baits b/c I have a hard time taking $$$ from the people I make baits for. I just want to support my habit.

Gotta get back to work

[clamboni]

Jerry, I'm another one that has mixed feelings about it. I, like a lot of guys on here am a member and pay for quite a few other forums. The prices you mentioned are very high compared to other sites. I have no problem paying for a site and would pay the $60 to stay on here. I've learned so much and definitely made more money than that (well, maybe I should say RECOVERED, LOL) Even had some input on a few threads.

Like I said, I'd pay for it.......but how many others will? And how many others would be willing to pay $20 but not $60. If less than 1/3 of the people that are willing to pay $20 would be willing to pay $60, you'll end up with less money.

In one of your posts in this thread, I took it as you basically saying you'd like to switch careers from woodworker to website administrator. I know you said you did research, I don't know if you thought about this, but you may end up with more money coming in if you charge less of a fee. Also.............You have to consider that you're definitely going to lose a good portion of the membership, even if it only costs $10 a year. The lower the fees, the more people can view. The more people that can view, the more hits the site gets, and the more money you can get for advertising.

It really seems like you'd like to turn the site into a moneymaker for yourself. If that's the way you want to go with it, I'm all for it and wish you luck. I'd just hate to see it not turn out well for you.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind telling, how many hits per day does the site get?

[PaulWW36]

Always look on the bright side, its nearly $2 to the £ !

so it'll be half price for the Brits !!!

[RipLip]

I'm not going to leave a answer with chapters in it but I do want to tell you I vote yes for the future of TU and I will pay the dues because the knowledge is worth it. With the way the economy is going I'm not sure how long I will be able to continue the fees. I may be speaking for others here that don't want to admit it but after adding all the costs of hobbies and general cost of living another $60 might hurt a bit. A lot of people like myself work a full time job and then side jobs to pay for all the hobbies and fun stuff. Like many I will just work more to keep doing what I'm doing. I think this site is great and everyone here is great. Pretty soon life will be just working as many hours as you can just to stay afloat so it may be hard on a lot of people when gas gets to $7 a gallon like they are predicting. I don't want to change the direction of this thread to solve the worlds economy problem but I think adding fees will cause some to flee. Good luck with this big decision and I hope all goes well in the future and we can keep partying here:tipsy:.