Lure--Prof Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 DT, you're very knowledgeable about finish epoxies and I appreciate the added info. I've used Devcon Two Ton, ETEX aka Envirotex Lite table top epoxy, and one other table epoxy (forgot the brand but it yellowed like crazy).I often use Devcon. Readily available, fairly cheap, brushes well, levels great, cures hard in 24 hrs, looks good and wears pretty well. When I say "wear well" I mean equal to most factory baits. I can't see any yellowing on pearl white lures I painted with D2T 3 yrs ago, so I'm not knocking it on that score either. Other TU'ers prefer ETEX. It contains a solvent so is a thinner finish that cures more slowly. Users give it high marks for durability. It's a favorite among custom builders who use multiple coats for a thick clearcoat on musky lures. Dick Nite Lurecoat is a very thin (compared to either of the above) moisture cured poly. DN had it formulated to clearcoat DN spoons. Tough, slick, thin, glossy stuff. If you want to dip finish it's a great choice but you can also brush it and get a nice clearcoat. One critical quality of ALL these "TU Favorites" is they are readily available. Walk into any Walmart and buy Devcon. Walk into any Michael's Craft store and buy ETEX. Click on a banner ad at the top of this page and get DN at a great special price for TU'ers. Most of us are not wedded to any particular product or brand. Show us something better at reasonable cost and we'll jump at the chance to use it. So - what's its brand name, where can we get it, and how much does it cost? Is there a minimum order size? Do we have to contract with an epoxy company to get it custom formulated? Good post Bob, well said, and, asked! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Small quantities: The best readily available epoxy I found was Flex Coat "Ultra V" formula. Made for lure refinishing. A little harder than regular Flex Coat and has UV inhibitors. Will still yellow ever so slightly, but it takes years to be noticeable. Larger quantities, and a little better: Sherwin Williams and most of the large paint manufacturers make 100% solids clear flooring epoxies that are awesome. But, you usually have to buy at least a quart of each component. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Thanks DT. I'm about out of "glue" so am looking around to see what's available. The requirement to buy a whole gallon for $100+ is a little off-putting but I see it's sold as a floor coating so I guess that's understandable. My concern is that I do 100-150 crankbaits a year and I'm wondering if a gallon will store for the rather long time it will take me to use it all. Many of the products I've perused so far on the web advertise 100% solids but none I've found so far advertise any UV additives or other enhancers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Thanks DT. I'm about out of "glue" so am looking around to see what's available. The requirement to buy a whole gallon for $100+ is a little off-putting but I see it's sold as a floor coating so I guess that's understandable. My concern is that I do 100-150 crankbaits a year and I'm wondering if a gallon will store for the rather long time it will take me to use it all. Many of the products I've perused so far on the web advertise 100% solids but none I've found so far advertise any UV additives or other enhancers. Epoxies don't store real well in room temps or cooler. They "precipitate" over time and will form crystals in the resin. It's easily fixed by warming the epoxy and mixing it. Good as new, but a gallon is a bit much to be warming and mixing for the average guy. Try the Ultra V. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It's really tough!! The only thing I didn't like was that it didn't seem to have any anti-maring additives. Even without it though, it is virtually indestructable. I still have charters running spoons and cranks for me on Erie that were Ultra V prototypes 3 years ago and not one single failure reported yet. Even with the spoons!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Craters are produced by escaping air. Yup that's clearly a bubble, my prior issues with epoxy were completely coating a bait & yet encounter a void in the finish before it setup. the void opened the finish all the way down to the paint layer. It seemed to "repel" the topcoat, much like oil repels water. A bubble that size surely came out of the bait, but how did it do that without lifting or bubbling the paintjob? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philB Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Yup that's clearly a bubble, my prior issues with epoxy were completely coating a bait & yet encounter a void in the finish before it setup. the void opened the finish all the way down to the paint layer. It seemed to "repel" the topcoat, much like oil repels water.A bubble that size surely came out of the bait, but how did it do that without lifting or bubbling the paintjob? Jerry The air simply came up between the peg on the back of the eye and the wood at exactly the right time to create that monster I had drilled a blow hole for it. Ya live and learn. You can never get rid of the air content in wood, best you can hope for is to seal it in so it cant escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 JerryThe air simply came up between the peg on the back of the eye and the wood at exactly the right time to create that monster I had drilled a blow hole for it. Ahaa, makes sense, given the location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Red, I think philb, is implying the air migrated out from beneath the eye. Which originated from the hole drilled for the eye post. Which could have possibly been prevented if the hole would have been sealed with epoxy when attaching the eye. Little late with this post Nice job of explaining yourself Philb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philB Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 (edited) BobP Just as a matter of interest believe it or not I spent a load of cash on a large Sable brush purely for applying epoxy. That produced some of the best finishes to date but I could not say hand on heart if it was better than the chuck aways I use now. KC. I does me best mate. Edited August 19, 2008 by philB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Jerry, I think the bubble came out of a cavity behind the eye. I've had it happen on baits with 3D eyes. My theory - epoxy generates heat while curing, enough that an air pocket behind the eyes expands and Whammo. Generating bubbles under epoxy is one reason I don't heat epoxy finish on wood lures. I waterproof lures before painting and that also suppresses any air expansion in the wood but you never know when or where an air bubble will pop out under the epoxy and give you a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Epoxies are exothermic, they generate heat while they are innitially curing. This is not so obvious on the slow cure epoxies, compared to the 5 minute epoxy. But when using balsa, which holds a very high proportion of air, even a temp rise of a vew degrees, will cause significant air expansion inside the body. This explains why the bubble usually appears when it is too late to fix, because the epoxy has already thickened. If this theory is true, then one solution would be to coat warm baits, then move to a cooler room to cure. Sorry for theorizing, but it made sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Epoxies are exothermic, they generate heat while they are innitially curing. This is not so obvious on the slow cure epoxies, compared to the 5 minute epoxy. But when using balsa, which holds a very high proportion of air, even a temp rise of a vew degrees, will cause significant air expansion inside the body. This explains why the bubble usually appears when it is too late to fix, because the epoxy has already thickened.If this theory is true, then one solution would be to coat warm baits, then move to a cooler room to cure. Sorry for theorizing, but it made sense to me. Good point! I mixed up some 5 minute epoxy that's melted poly cups. Hot stuff! First thing that need to be identified is if it's a fisheye, air bubble, or what happens to my baits when I heated them while curing. Solutions have been posted for all three. What happened to my baits when I tried heating them to accelerate the cure wasn't a fisheye or air bubble. The clear had BIG low spots that were paper thin and it pooled up thick in other areas. Almost like little hot-spots developed and thinned that areas epoxy out to the point of it flowing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philB Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 DT Mmmm some really good stuff surfacing in this thread. In my early days of epoxy coating I was doing the exact opposite of Vodkamans suggestion and I was coating cool baits then putting them into a cabinet which was heated to turn and cure, this produced some horrendous results, lots of craters and air problems which at the time was confusing to say the least. Maybe the solution is just to keep baits at the same temperature as the air in the room hence neither expanding or contracting ? It would seem from what I have read so far that stable temperatures are an important factor in successful epoxy coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Phil- although I seal mine right from the start, I also started sealing the acrylic paint on the last 1/2 dozen I made, just before going to US and (by my eyes anyway) they were by far the best and most consistent finishes I ahve done, so far. I sprayed them (air brush) with one good coat of "Clear Hard Shellac". I think this must fill any pinholes in the paint, and 'fixes' any invisible fine dust. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clamboni Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 Sorry for theorizing, but it made sense to me. You can't help theorizing.........that's what you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philB Posted August 20, 2008 Report Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) Phil- although I seal mine right from the start, I also started sealing the acrylic paint on the last 1/2 dozen I made, just before going to US and (by my eyes anyway) they were by far the best and most consistent finishes I ahve done, so far. I sprayed them (air brush) with one good coat of "Clear Hard Shellac". I think this must fill any pinholes in the paint, and 'fixes' any invisible fine dust. pete Pete I am sure if you looked at the paint job under a microscope it would reveal pores. I have heard you talk of this clear shellac before. We do not seem to have clear shellac but I do have what is known as shellac sealer which is a horrible brown colour, it is a fast drying sealer used by decorators working with new woods, it is more commonly termed as 'Knotting' in the trade as they use it primarily for painting over the knots in wood to prevent the resin oozing out of the knot. It's made from crushed beetle shells. Maybe your 'Clear Shellac' is an adopted name and is not 'shellac' at all but a man made replacement. Having said all that, whilst typing this I have looked around a couple of UK web sites and found clear shellac, here is the description of it. "Clear Shellac Sealer" "Clear Shellac Sanding Sealer is a traditional sealer for use under French polish or for sealing wood prior to waxing. It is based on waxy white shellac, which gives it a milky appearance and has additives added to aid sanding." I don't really like it being based on waxy white shellac , do you think this is the same product ?? Here is a link to the site I found it on. WOOD FINISHES Jeff. Sorry if the thread has been hijacked somewhat but I suppose sealing goes hand in hand with finishing. Edited August 20, 2008 by philB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Phil - If you look at the lures the gallery Under Hazmail), the lures titled "Gold Toad" and "Harliquin" , were both clear coated with clear shellac (about 6 coats). It is a shellac, and is near enough to clear (very light honey), I think the manufacturer calls it "Clear Hard Shelac", which they boil or something. I will have a look tonight and try and find the web site address (lost all my favourites), or better still have a look on the bottle.pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) This address will tell you how to use it http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=29950 This address will tell you where to get 'U-Beaut' Hard Shellac http://www.ubeaut.com.au/eee.htm click hard shellac in the sidebar. The jury is still out on its durability as a finish (seems brittle and probably not UV Stable), but as a sealer under a UV finish, it may be the trick -fast drying and easy to apply, easy to remove. Just found this also, - * ETHANOL (also commonly known in Australia as - 100% Industrial Methylated Spirits or 100% IMS. and sometimes called pure alcohol or denatured alcohol. If you can't get 100% IMS then it is strongly suggested that you use 95% rather than a cheap methylated spirits without a percentage specified, as this by law can contain up to 40%+ water and will ruin the shellac and your finish) pete Edited August 21, 2008 by hazmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 Is that like Scotch neat instead of with water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL Rods Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 now that's funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 Is that like Scotch neat instead of with water? close enough, if you're talking about that cheap blended crap that's sometimes labeled as Scotch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
