Differences in working with ETEX VS D2T

[eagle1584]

Hey guys. Thanks for all the great advice that I've gotten here. I have learned so much since finding this site.

I have a quick question about working with ETEX over D2T. I've always used D2T because I'm in Walmart once a week for something and its always there. But now that the cold weather has set in and I work in my basement D2T has been giving me fits getting hard to work with. I've thinned it...warmed it...and all in its just driving me nuts.

I picked up some ETEX the other day at Michaels to give it a try. For you ETEX users how many coats are you applying? I've been pretty successful with one or maybe 2 coats of D2T but it seems that ETEX might need more.

Anything other caution or differences you can think of that are critical would be appreciated!

Thanks

Chris

[CL Rods]

man I am laughing and with you. It sure didn't take much of an ambient temperature change to make a big difference in the 30 Minute stuff.

I just put on my first coat of ETEX and I can tell you wow, sure has a lot more working time and wow sure goes on thinner. But that is a good thing in my book.

I have seen some guys say they have used 6 coats!!! I'm not sure that is required but over the next couple of days I am about to find out. Hopefully we will get an average from some of the more experienced ETEX folks.

[Lure--Prof]

I generally used two or three coats. I assume Chris that you have a lure turner--difficult to do E-tex without one.

Dean

[kbt]

I am having the same problem with D2T. I was fortunate to heat the bait enough to finish leveling out on the second bait. I have new baits painted and will also be applying etex tonight. This will be a new venture for me. I will let you know the outcome?

KBT

[eagle1584]

Gator...glad you're not just laughing at me!

I coated the last few lures with D2T and thought it would be ok but they ended up with a sort of wavy finish. I sanded them down then got somewhat clever to get a new coat of D2T. I have a small toaster oven in my workspace that I use to powder coat jig heads. I preheated the toaster oven so the top would be warm. I mix my epoxy in the bottom of soda cans. So I set the soda can on the toaster oven to keep it warm and the D2T thin. It worked pretty good but is a huge pain.

I've done coat #2 of ETEX on my first attempt. Looks good but it takes so long to dry. I searched all over the boards and found conflicting reports about how long you need to wait to put a second coat on. Can you do it when its tacky or need to wait 24 hours til its dry?

Thanks for the advice guys and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one ripping my hair out!!!

Chris

[Lure--Prof]

Chris,

The best time to apply a 2nd coat of any epoxy is before the 1st coat is bone dry, so that the coats will bond chemically into one coat; so just a bit tacky is the ideal time to recoat.

One more tip concerning E-tex: absolutely be sure that the amount of resin and hardener are measured equally by volume. A mixture that contains a bit more resin than hardener for example, will cure a little soft, and remain so forever. Many people measure E-tex with syringes dedicated for each part...be as accurate as possible!

Dean

[A-Mac]

yeah, don't waste your time with e-tex unless you are going to do it right. definately get some 1 or 3ml suringes. i work in an aquaculture lab facility so its a little bit easier to get larger needles. Otherwise, just take the needle off. I used to buy them at wally-world. Its an interesting circumstance when you describe your use for the needles as "mixing paints w/ it" and get an intriguing look from the cashier, like your cooking up a lil more than crankbaits in your basement.

new paint scheme to come: icy meth: just take any createx color and add everything else in you house to it!... especially thin w/ windex!

[mark poulson]

I used to use Etex Lite.

Two coats of Etex should be plenty.

But you do need a drying wheel.

You can re coat before the first coat is completely cured out, but you need to wait long enough to let it get "stiff", so you won't drag it with the second coat.

I use the salsa mixing cup to gauge when it's ready.

I now use Nu Lustre 55, and it works the same as Etex. I added a little extra hardener, 2 grams of resin and 2 1/2 grams of hardener, to the last top coat I did, because it was cold and I wanted it to set a little quicker. It came out fine. I assume you can err on the side of more hardener, just a little, with Etex, too, although I've never tried it.

If you're in doubt, do some test mixes on a small scrap of cardboard, varying the mix, and see what works and what doesn't.

And if you put a batch on a lure and it stays tacky, it's probably because of an under mixed batch. I know I've rushed the mixing process to try and get a lure coated quickly, not letting the batch sit before I applied it, and paid the price when the lure stayed tacky.

You can save the lure by mixing up another batch really well and applying another coat. Let the mix sit for a minute before you apply it, so the ingredients have time to react with each other. The properly mixed batch seems to set off the unmixed stuff in the first coat.

Edited December 9, 2008 by mark poulson

[eagle1584]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I'm still struggling a bit with the ETEX so far. I get a good coat on the lure but after it turns on the whieel a bit it seems to develop small bare spots. I've had the same situation with D2T before but normally just because I've been working too quick or a small spot hides behind the hook hanger. These spots seem to develop for no reason.

I did try to let it sit after mixing about 10 minutes today to get a bit thicker. We'll see tomorrow when I get them off the wheel. I have been using the syringes like a lot of people suggested on the boards. I think I've read about every ETEX post on the boards for the past year. I'm not certain its worth the extra work and drying time? Hopefully it will warm up enough to get some in the water for a try!

Chris

[diemai]

Years ago a Belgian friend sent me a pack of Etex(many Dutch and Belgian lure builders use it , I suppose , it's also available in local webshops there) , and I have used it up on many lures .

I used to brush on two layers of the stuff , don't have a rotating lure dryer , just frequently changed their position from head to tail hanging in my lure rack .

At first I was pretty satisfied with it , but lateron , as the first pike or encounters with gravel lake bottoms had pierced the finish , I could partly peel it off in large chips:( !

This did not happen to all of these lures , so I really don't have an idea , what exactly might have caused the problem .

If I hazard a guess , it could only be certain ingridients in paints or maybe oily or greasy contents in some of the differents kinda woods , that I have used , that were responsible for this lack of adhesion of the Etex ?

Well , anyway , I have used it up long time ago , now I have found a method , that works well for me , though it does not provide the thickest topcoats .

I would first brush on two layers of acrylic clear lacquer to protect paint , signature and possible glitter flakes , after I apply two layers of epoxy and finally two layers of a certain 2-component clear gloss , said to be coming from the auto industry.

That one results into thinner layers than the epoxy , but cures harder .

Both topcoats start to set quite fast , provided to have been mixed well , so I still don't have a rotator , just flip them over again two or three times in my rack during the first 45 min , after it's OK .

I get these paints from a German tackle and component shop :

HAKUMA ihr Spezialist f

[mark poulson]

I used to get those "dry" spots, too, from time to time. I think it has to do with finger print oil and dirt getting on the lure before I put on the top coat. Or maybe a small part of the mix that wasn't as complete as the rest, so the surface tension as the epoxy flowed out was able to pull it off the spot where the bad mix was.

I still watch my lures when they're on the wheel, checking every few minutes for the first half hour, so see if any bad spots are developing. The batch of epoxy I used to top coat is still soft enough to "touch up" bad spots up to that point.

But you have to be careful not to put too much on, or it will sag into a drip, even on a drying wheel.

I use disposable latex gloves when I'm painting now, and handling the lure when I'm putting it on the drying wheel, and put my top coat epoxy on when the lure is already on the wheel, so I don't touch it any more than necessary.

I put a second coat on my swimbaits after 24 hours+-, so, if there are any thin spots, I wipe the lure down with denatured alcohol, hit it with the hair dryer to make sure all the dn alcohol is gone, and put on the second coat.

[Lure--Prof]

Diemai;

Sound as though your clearcoat that expired so quickly after opening was a humidity-cured urethane such as Dicknite's. All those measures we take to keep our Dicknite's topcoat fresh would also work on the topcoat you speak of, I'm sure.

Mark;

Good advice on those "dry" spots, could be caused by either an incomplete mixture or surface contamination. There is an ideal amount of etex to use on a lure also: too much and it will sag or drip as Mark said, and too little will have a tendency to thin out into incomplete coverage especially on even subtle edges suchs as the nose area on crankbaits. And if the lure contains sharp edges, it is simply difficult to coat such areas with a protective thickness, in any conventional manner.

Dean

Edited December 10, 2008 by Dean McClain
more info

[diemai]

@ Dean McClain

I have tought so as well , somewhere in a thread here on TU , there was a link about a kinda gas in a spraycan(not too sure about that ?) , that would be placed in the paint storage container to remain between the lacquer and the containers top lid to prevent oxygene(or air humidity) to contact the paint at all , thus extend the lifetime of that stuff .

Have never heard about such before , don't even know , whether such is available over here in Germany ?

But so far I'm alright with my present method , that I mentioned , so I didn't bother to look further !

thanks anyway , diemai

[b1gf1sh1]

theres a-lot of reasons a coating will ''fish-eye'' or leave dry spots. the biggest mistake most lure builders make is applying it too soon after painting, because they're excited and want to get it done NOW.. an uncured paint is still leaching solvent and when a coating that cures as slow as epoxy is applied the solvent escapeing is a gas. gas rises and as it does it ''pushes'' the coating apart and keeps it from re-joining as it keeps rising. as a general rule i never coat a lure i can smell the paint on.... within reason of course. even a hint of solvent scent and i wait. and of course theres a million or so contaminents that will do it too. water based paints? don't know really, i didn't get into using it that long.

[mark poulson]

I think it's called Bloxygen. Paint stores sell it over here.

@ Dean McClain

I have tought so as well , somewhere in a thread here on TU , there was a link about a kinda gas in a spraycan(not too sure about that ?) , that would be placed in the paint storage container to remain between the lacquer and the containers top lid to prevent oxygene(or air humidity) to contact the paint at all , thus extend the lifetime of that stuff .

Have never heard about such before , don't even know , whether such is available over here in Germany ?

But so far I'm alright with my present method , that I mentioned , so I didn't bother to look further !

thanks anyway , diemai

[diemai]

@ mark poulson

Thanks about reminding me , Mark , really had forgotten about the name , but remembered instantly reading your post .

@ b1gf1sh1

Sometimes it happens , that the epoxy , that I use , would leave dry spots .

It only does that on the first two lures of a batch(most likely I paint 6 to 8 with one epoxy mixture) , provided being mixed well in the right relations , which is 10:4(resin:hardener) .

My theory is , that if I haven't stirred up the hardener and resin long enough , or , in other words , haven't waited long enough to brush it on after stirring , this would happen ?

Maybe , the mixture has to rest for a little while before applying it ?

But if I'd wait these few minutes , I could paint less lures with the mixture , 'cause it starts to set real soon to a viscous consistency .

So , to overcome that problem , I would just put on just a little more epoxy and brush it over again those first two lures after a little while , by this time the gloss has set enough not to evolve this kind of "de-mixing" anymore .

greets , diemai

[A-Mac]

you hit several points between etex and d2t just then. d2t is fast to cure but working time is low (I have noticed that the clearer the tubes of epoxy (non-yellow) are the longer work time you have). As for the random dry spots, I think Mark is right on the money. I'm going to take his advice and get some latex gloves.

also, i mix my epoxies for a solid 2-2.5 minutes before putting it on the lure. good thing about this- no more soft finishes

bad thing- you get tons of mini air bubbles (d2t)

Thankfully, I think the only people that notice the air bubbles are other lure makers.

heres a delima i've come across. when using microfibetts on my lure i can't use e-tex (even though I like it better for larger lures due to working time). while the lure is turning, e-tex will grab the microfibetts and flow towards the ends w/ capilary action. so after waiting 24 hours for the lure to dry, i come to find that all my fins are hard as rock. does anyone use a certain technique to prevent e-tex from doing this?

oh yeah heres a lil technique I used the other day. for those of you that are as religious about super glue as I but hate it getting everywhere you can squeeze it into a syringe. As long as you have a large enough needle you can squirt small amounts into hard to reach places (works excellent for swimbait hinges!). just cap when your finished and the glue stays good in the syringe (sometimes you have to break off a small bit of the needle or replace).

[diemai]

@ A-Mac

Had this capilary action happen with my 2 component clear gloss(mentioned a few posts below) as well .

When I made my first swimbait , I was aware , that the paint brush bristle fins might somehow hinder the topcoating process , so I glued them in afterwards .

Just to assure 100% coverage , even inside the fin grooves and between the bristles , I have applied small amounts of that lacquer to those spots , but even with pointing upward fins , that paint still climbed upward towards the bristles ends .

It's quite liquid and not viscous at all , also starts to set rather quick , but still did this !

greetz , diemai

[Vodkaman]

This is a very informative thread, learning lots here.

The tail problem could be solved by brushing some petroleum jelly on the fibres. This should solve the capillary action. Like a lot of my ideas, untested, but I am confident. Once the top coat is fully cured, the jelly can be cleaned off with a little solvent or even soapy water. If the tail is too bushy, even this might not work though. Just an idea to throw out there.

Dave

[A-Mac]

brilliant vodkaman! now i think we're getting somewhere. as long as e-tex doesn't have adverse affects w/ the jelly (or doesn't harden around the fins as a result) i think this will work! think we are on the right track to a solution now.

[mark poulson]

I was thinking that a horizontal drying wheel would solve this problem, and then I remembered the dorsal fin.

I would ask both Snax and JRHopkins, as they both do fibbet (sp?)fins really well.

I suspect they install the fins after the epoxy is applied. That might be difficult with Etex or Nu Lustre, due to them both being low viscosity and wanting to fill the fin slots, but I'm pretty sure it's manageable.

I guess you could cut the fin slots after the lure is top coated, seal the slot (if it's a wood lure) with runny crazy glue, and then epoxy or hot glue (per Snax method) the fins in place.

I've been to chicken to try fins so far, even though I bought some of the fibbets a year ago.

[borderbasser]

The dry spots yall are refering to are fish eys and 9 times out of 10 it will be a contamination issue either from oil on your hands or from some other source. I have seen this happen when measuring epoxy from syringes that have the rubber plungers like the medical ones. Many times these are lubricated from the factory with silicone and let me tell you, silicone and epoxy don't jive at all. Also, whatever you do, keep all aresols of any kind away from anything that may come in contact with anything involved in the finishing process from the brush, to the cup, to the bait. One time, I had just put a fresh coat of finish on one of my custom rods. I had it set up on the turner which was on the kitchen table. My wife soon came by within about fifteen feet of the table and sprayed some air freshener and boom! The decal area of my rod became all pock marked like the moon...little craters everywhere! It is important to note that the contaminate does not have to come in contact with the epoxy post application. I had a rod that was wrapped and set aside in the corner for a week before I was able to applly finish to the wraps and had the same problem as stated above. I asked my wife if she had again sprayed anything. She finaly broke that she had, but it had been several days before. I am not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure that letting the mixed epoxy sit a bit will not help things at all. After you mix it, it is either mixed or it isn't. If it needs time to sit and react, as far as I am concerned it should just as well sit on the bait and react. All you are goin to do is waste your working time in my opinion. The only other time I have seen something like this is when applying a second coat. The theory is, the previous coat is so slick from not being in a water break free condition, the the epoxy won't stick well and actually pulls away from an area or spot, but it generally won't be a "pock" or "crater" like is typical with contamination where the epoxy is repelled.

As far as adding more hardner to the mix like Mark suggests, I would be very cautious. You are just asking for disaster with most epoxies. Some are VERY particular about getting an exact mix for a proper cure. Others not so much. As far as the Nu-Lustre stuff Mark is using, I have no experience. It is my understanding though that the more quality epoxies are generally more particular about exact ratios. If you are worried about the ambient temp, you can hit the bait just a little with a hair dryer before applying the epoxy. Also, if you put a desk light (the ones with a flexible neck) with 100W bulb pointed at the bait while it turns, the temp won't be an issue unless it is very cold. It will also help it cure a little faster than normal during normal temps. Just make sure you don't put too much heat on the bait, or you will cause the epoxy to "boil" and create a bunch of bubbles. Just test the distance from the bait to the lamp with your hand to make sure your not too close.

Sorry to be so long winded here, but I know this can be a frustrating issue for some who may not understand exactly what is happening. Hope it helps someone.

TJ

[eagle1584]

I know one of my biggest problems has been the cold weather here in the midwest has killed me using D2T. In an attempt to warm up my basement workshop I put one of those oil filled radiator type space heaters next to the work bench my drying wheel was on. I moved the wheel close to the edge so the lures were turning out over the edge of the bench and all the warm air from the heater passed up and over the lures. My lures coated with ETEX dried in half the time. It was purely by accident and convenience because the only available plug was with my drying wheel...but most of my best ideas are accidents!!!!

I'm still not sure it's worth the extra drying time but it sure is much less unpredictable and annoying than D2T this time of year for me.

Chris

[diemai]

@ borderbasser

You are darn right about keeping the accurate relations when mixing epoxy:yes: , at first I also have had problems with it , it just would remain tacky .

The epoxy , that I use , has to be mixed 10:4 (resin:hardener) , which is not quite easy to estimate .

Many years ago my wife had to go to hospital for surgery , so as I visited her there for the first time , I came across those small medication containers , that many of the patients had left standing at their bedsides , to be littered after use by the medical staff .

I asked her to gather them for me , so when she was released after a couple of days , she brought a few dozens of those containers , wich I all cleaned up thoroughly .

They come in very handy for the purpose , have a divider scale of 1 millilitre steps , so I can mix my stuff accurately .

Off course I have by now used them all up , but on a fleamarket I have found a few hundred of just the same ones for little money , and I have also ordered for similar ones at the local chemists before .

Greetz , diemai

[mark poulson]

I've found that if I err on the side of slightly more hardener, the Nu Lustre 55 still sets, but a little more quickly, in cold weather.

I'm talking about 5 grams of resin and 6 grams of hardener.