Injection System

[jigman2]

I've found while looking at various websites that an injection system can be built at home. There are many safety considerations that should be thought out and procedures to follow.

???? Has anyone out there built their own injection system?

Could you answer these questions

1 Cost.

2 ease of use.

3 Safety considerations.

Thanks

Jigman2:whistle:

[Delw]

I've found while looking at various websites that an injection system can be built at home. There are many safety considerations that should be thought out and procedures to follow.

???? Has anyone out there built their own injection system?

Could you answer these questions

1 Cost.

2 ease of use.

3 Safety considerations.

Thanks

Jigman2:whistle:

There easy if you have common sence with it out they are UNSAFE and a PAIN in the butt.

There are many things you can make injection stuff with. if your making a standard pressure pot the best one is all american as they are alum and they have heavy walls.

Injection pot ( most common)

you can buy them already built from 2k-7k

you will need a alumin welder and some machine work to make a good one.

also a small air compressor for the expensive things to have.

it can cost anywere from a few hundred bucks to a few thousand depending on what you can do and what and how handy you are and how eloaborate you want it.

heating bands can be bought online farely cheap

you also MUST get a pressure regulator and a pop off valve ( presure valve) with out it, you can get seriously hurt and so can anyone with in that room.

Zorn injection machine

is the best but your looking at 20-50k

for small stuff for playing around with those little injectors from janns net craft work. 8-12 bucks

fabricate one out of a greese gun also works

with all these things you cannot be clumbsy, day dreaming talking on the phone or looking at women as any distraction can get you hurt.

[GB GONE]

with all these things you cannot be clumbsy or looking at women as any distraction can get you hurt.

FORGET IT!!!!!! No women makes it not worth it for sure!!!!

Jim

[Vodkaman]

Vacu-venting, is a system of pouring under a vacuum, that I developed with KcDano's help. It satisfies all three of your requirements.

Here are my links to the method:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/11056-hairy-worm.html

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/11312-3d-legs.html

The system was verified by Piscivorous Pike:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/14488-tu-taught-me-its-long-pics-too.html

So far he is the only one, other than me, to try the method. He seemed quite happy with the system.

Dave

[Delw]

Vacu-venting, is a system of pouring under a vacuum, that I developed with KcDano's help. It satisfies all three of your requirements.

Here are my links to the method:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/11056-hairy-worm.html

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/11312-3d-legs.html

The system was verified by Piscivorous Pike:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/14488-tu-taught-me-its-long-pics-too.html

So far he is the only one, other than me, to try the method. He seemed quite happy with the system.

Dave

Vacumm venting works we played with i it 4-5 years ago.... However I have yet to see it work on ALum molds satisfactory. some molds work but they are big legs and antennas. running small stuff the plastic cools off faster than it can flow.

For rtv and pop molds its great. alum molds its completely different. Mainly due to how fast the plastic cools off.

it was tried buy guys on tacklemaking.com before this site was in existance and tried in the begining stages of this site.

one guy used to be on here all the time, we made some trout worm molds for him. If I remember correcly it would run 2 worms then clog up.

one problem we had that a customer fixed was that volume of vacumm wasnt enough to suck in the bigger baits fast enough to get it to fill all cavities.( cheap pumps dont suck fast enough) he kinda fixed that by using a air tank( the ones you get for your shop) as a vaccum tank.

There should be threads on it from years ago, just do a search for harbor frieght vacumm pumps we were getting them for aorund 29-59 bucks. can't remember which as it was long long ago.

Also remember in those pictures you talking about very big thick legs which most will hand pour pretty darn close. Legs in the 3/32 dia and less usualy wont fly as easy on alum. I dont know on pop or RTVbut I would assume small legs would work on those.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Delw

[jigman2]

Vodkaman

your Hairy-worm what is the formula for that color? I have been looking and trying to match a color simular to that for some time, you seem to have it down. Will you share?

Jigman2:whistle:

Edited December 16, 2008 by jigman2

[Piscivorous Pike]

I made two piece molds, out of DWP. Some molds have one side flat; essentially it is a cover on a one piece mold. The detail to fill with plastic was very thin. I had to use a shop vac into which I taped a piece of tubing into the vac hose and I put a piece of greased paper on the flat side of the mold as a gasget to get enough pressure on one mold of this style because that mold seemed to leak the vacuum.

One round two piece mold I improved the air channels around the area of fine detail since I wrote the thread. I surrounded the thin tail with a moat and at the end, the tip of the tail, put a manifold connecting the moat to the outside suction port. I connected the moat encirculing around the tail with small vent channels engraved only in one side of the two piece mold. A small hole drilled from the manifold opened into one the size of the tubing I use for the outlet which opened on the other side of the mold. I plugged in the tubing into the outlet. As the tail filled the vents at the base of the tail were last to be blocked. This mold was tight enough that a rechargeable airbed pump worked to vacuum the mold. That was small and handy. (I just looked up hairy worm, that is what I am describing here regarding the moat system!)

I define a manifold as a larger collection chamber, that allow airflow and some fowling from plastic sucked in. I found that if I ran too high of a vacuum pressure I would start to draw melted plastic past the manifold into the suction hose. As I poured I learned at what point to disconnect the vacuum.

I vacuum only one mold section at a time. For each creature I must move the vacuum hose over to the next. Each creature has its own outlet port. If you use a big enough vacuum cleaner you could make one manifold connecting all the creatures that must be injected. As each thin portion fills and you hear the plastic going into the tube you could shut off the vacuum a moment. As each creature is filled your final one will have a higher vacuum pressure. That could be tricky to learn how to modulate.

It is a neat system Vodkaman came up with, simple and successful.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Piscivorous Pike

[Vodkaman]

Before I started that project, I was sure that I did searches and came up with nothing. I even posted an exploratory post, to ask if it had been done before. But you are correct, OhioMike did it. I just wish someone had told me, I put mucho time and effort into this project.

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/313-2-part-plaster-molds.html

I only used RTV at that time, the theory being that the vacuum would draw the two halves together. I figured that the rigid plaster would be very difficult to perform a good seal. But Mike used plaster successfully.

I dismissed Ally for the same reason. I do not think that the heat conduction properties of aluminium is the problem, particularly as you stated that two worms poured before it failed. My thought is that the seal surface was contaminated, breaking the seal.

This idea is backed up by Piscivorous Pike, the only member brave enough to try out these ideas. Thanks PP for the kind words.

Jigman2, I did not have access to plastisol and did not want to order, as this was never going to be my thing, just an experiment to publish on TU. The material I found was a re-melt able rubber called gelflex. Quite expensive, but works the same as the plastisol, microwave heating.

Dave

[Delw]

Before I started that project, I was sure that I did searches and came up with nothing. I even posted an exploratory post, to ask if it had been done before. But you are correct, OhioMike did it. I just wish someone had told me, I put mucho time and effort into this project.

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/313-2-part-plaster-molds.html

I only used RTV at that time, the theory being that the vacuum would draw the two halves together. I figured that the rigid plaster would be very difficult to perform a good seal. But Mike used plaster successfully.

I dismissed Ally for the same reason. I do not think that the heat conduction properties of aluminium is the problem, particularly as you stated that two worms poured before it failed. My thought is that the seal surface was contaminated, breaking the seal.

This idea is backed up by Piscivorous Pike, the only member brave enough to try out these ideas. Thanks PP for the kind words.

Jigman2, I did not have access to plastisol and did not want to order, as this was never going to be my thing, just an experiment to publish on TU. The material I found was a re-melt able rubber called gelflex. Quite expensive, but works the same as the plastisol, microwave heating.

Dave

Dave I learned a long time ago if someone thinks of something cool or unique than its more than liekly been done, However what you fail to realize is that in bringing such a subject up brings it back to attention and maybe people try things again finding a better way with new technology and all. Thats a great thing. I honestly forgot about ohio mikes post, he wasnt the guy I was thinking of this guy lived in the south.

so back to the thread on alum vs vaccum.

theres a few reasons why they wouldnt work/be justifiable or worth it.

First like I said the small very thin segments will cool before they run through. A vacumm does have alot more sucking force then a vacumm pump we only played witht he vacumm pump, but the problem with a shop vac is that its too darn loud, I dont think there are very many people who would sit pouring with a shopvac running next to them all day.

[Piscivorous Pike]

... but the problem with a shop vac is that its too darn loud, I dont think there are very many people who would sit pouring with a shopvac running next to them all day.

Obstacle or opprotunity for ingenuity? How many ways can you think of making a quiet station in five minutes?

I have a 20 foot pool vacume hose. Vac can go out side. Easy to rig a system like some homes whereas the vacuum jacks are in the wall.

Variable speed, small pumps, stuff like that are easy variations; as I stated by using the cavities sigularly a simple battery powered airbed pump works on some of my molds.

Noise is no problem for me, not at all. I handle the vacuum noise like the wicked roar of my fully automatic unregistered chain saw.

I turn off my hearing aids.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Piscivorous Pike

[carolinamike]

Jigman2,

You can build an injector, and Delw's right, you'll need someone that's very good at welding aluminum. Some machine work and some drilling and tapping. I've promised a couple of guys on TU to share a lot of the details on one of these pots. The one I built is very safe. I've maxed it out on purpose a couple of times just to test it. I've left it for as long as 10 minutes and come back and everything is fine. The main thing you have tied up in it is a lot of time to do it right. We are covered up right now, but we'll try our best after Christmas to get some pictures up of the lid. That's the main part of the pot that needs the work. You guys just keep nagging so I don't forget. As far as the vacuum goes, my worry would be shrinkage of the bait. One good thing about an injector is you can hold continual pressure to help minimize shrinkage, but the idea is interesting. To quiet down the vacuum system, you could get a portable air tank, like you would use to pump up a flat tire and you could buy a vacuum pump, I'm sure Grainger carries them, just look in the HVAC section. You probably could get a pressure switch that would turn the pump on and off for you. Pull a vacuum on your air tank. You would have to regulate your vacuum pressure just like you would if you were injecting. Then you could open up a nozzle and pull the vacuum without a continuous running motor. Kind of work on the same principle as an air compressor, except in reverse. The small electric pumps are less quieter than a vacuum cleaner. It would just be a matter of calculating the cfm's you would need. If someone takes this project on, keep us informed, I'd like to hear more about this.

[Piscivorous Pike]

How much pressure do you need on the plastic?

The pressure should also have some effect on suspensions in the plastic as air bubbles or additives.

Vacuum can only achieve one atmosphere, 14.7 lbs./square inch. pressure on the plastic.

Injection pressure is limited ony by the limits of your machine and the reqirements of the substrate.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Piscivorous Pike
kant speil

[Vodkaman]

DelW, I take your point with the heat absorption qualities of aluminium, it is one of the worst metals for the job. But, if you can inject fine sections, you should be able to draw them with a vacuum, as the process takes milliseconds with a proper vacuum. True, PoP and RTV would be better as they are good insulators.

Mike, it is very generous to offer to share your equipment construction. I look forward to seeing pics, from an interest point of view only. Storing the vacuum in a tank is a great idea. One tank is going to allow a lot of pours, if managed correctly.

Piscivorous Pike, good point about the size of vacuum. In reality, the achievable vacuum will be much less than 14.7Lb/sqft. But I had reasonable success just drawing by mouth (not recommended from a health and safety point of view).

I hope this is not viewed as a hijack, as I don

[Delw]

How much pressure do you need on the plastic?

The pressure should also have some effect on suspensions in the plastic as air bubbles or additives.

Vacuum can only achieve one atmosphere, 14.7 lbs./square inch. pressure on the plastic.

Injection pressure is limited ony by the limits of your machine and the reqirements of the substrate.

2-5 lbs runs most molds just fine, with a anything over 7 lbs is Dangerous on a homemade pot. For example using a all american pressure pot it has a 7 or 10lb pop off valve.

DelW, I take your point with the heat absorption qualities of aluminium, it is one of the worst metals for the job. But, if you can inject fine sections, you should be able to draw them with a vacuum, as the process takes milliseconds with a proper vacuum. True, PoP and RTV would be better as they are good insulators.

Mike, it is very generous to offer to share your equipment construction. I look forward to seeing pics, from an interest point of view only. Storing the vacuum in a tank is a great idea. One tank is going to allow a lot of pours, if managed correctly.

Piscivorous Pike, good point about the size of vacuum. In reality, the achievable vacuum will be much less than 14.7Lb/sqft. But I had reasonable success just drawing by mouth (not recommended from a health and safety point of view).

I hope this is not viewed as a hijack, as I don

[jigmeister]

"it was tried buy guys on tacklemaking.com before this site was in existance and tried in the begining stages of this site."

I used to post all the time on "Tacklemaking.com " years ago under the handle "Megabass" . As far as I know/remember I was the one who originally posted the idea about using vacuum by way of a shop vac to sucessfully fill voids in a two piece mold . I was working on a Mad man craw mold at the time and vacuum was required to get the tips of the claws to fill completely . As I recall Jed (Riverman here on the hardbait forum )asked me about the process as he was working up a shrimp mold and was having trouble filling the cavities completely . I believe I also talked with the trout worm guy.

The shop vac was loud and the size of the venting journals was key (not too big) but it did work . I later made an injector and experimented with it . It also worked but was a hassle to clean after injecting the hot plastic . I have a simple injection system I am tweaking on now that is very promising ........Jigmeister

[Delw]

"it was tried buy guys on tacklemaking.com before this site was in existance and tried in the begining stages of this site."

I used to post all the time on "Tacklemaking.com " years ago under the handle "Megabass" . As far as I know/remember I was the one who originally posted the idea about using vacuum by way of a shop vac to sucessfully fill voids in a two piece mold . I was working on a Mad man craw mold at the time and vacuum was required to get the tips of the claws to fill completely . As I recall Jed (Riverman here on the hardbait forum )asked me about the process as he was working up a shrimp mold and was having trouble filling the cavities completely . I believe I also talked with the trout worm guy.

The shop vac was loud and the size of the venting journals was key (not too big) but it did work . I later made an injector and experimented with it . It also worked but was a hassle to clean after injecting the hot plastic . I have a simple injection system I am tweaking on now that is very promising ........Jigmeister

wow time flies anymore doesnt it.

there were 2 trout worm guys. Both were really cool the one I can't remember that well had the success, the other one lived in tennesse/virgina? if I remember correctly he had a 2001 stratos brand spanking new he bought at a repo place for a smoking deal I think his name was Greg. he was a hell of a nice guy he worked for the hiway dept and took care of his mom and dad. I talked to him about 2-3 years ago and that was the last I have heard from him.

[borderbasser]

Let me boucne this one off you guys. What if you poured the bait say 3/4 full and then used some sort of pressure source to presurize the mold a few pounds to fill the hard to reach spots. Seem likes if you vented the tails or legs or whatever the appendages may be and the plastic was hot, it would force the plastic into those places. Then, just top the mold off. A simple pressure source could be a larger syringe with a hollow rubber stopper on the end that would create a seal on the sprue hole. It does seem though that this method would be less succesful on alum. molds than the other alternatives, but that is just a guess. Any thoughts?

TJ

[Delw]

Some of the guys on this board have used that way with some success. I know 7-10 curl tail worms and 12-16" diamond tail worms.

Mainly cause the majority of the plastic is pretty warm as there is alot, you will still have prolems if your mold is to cold or your wit to long. a empty syring just shooting air is safer than one filled with plastic.

[borderbasser]

I plan on making a swimbait mold and I am concerned that the fins will not fill well on their own. I would imagine that the syringe method will work for me since the mold will either be RTV or plaster and just due to the volume of plastic in each pour, keeping it hot enough to push plastic into the fins shouldn't really be to much of an issue if it is done in a timely fashion.

TJ

[jigmeister]

If you are injecting a a full round swimbait mold you will have to provide for venting at the tips of the fins to allow the air that will most likely be trapped there to escape and be displaced with plastic . Another consideration is the shrinkage of the plastic upon cooling that pulls the surface of the lure away from the mold creating dimples in the finished lure . I fought this and added internal venting in strategic areas in the center of the mold . This will allow air from outside the mold to be drawn in during cooling .You will then end up with some voids inside the bait but no exterior imperfections . I also had to rotate the bait during cooling to keep these air pockets centered in the bait otherwise they will end up at the top just under the surface. I suppose this is why Hud's cost so much...........Jigmeister

[rsinyard]

Some of the guys on this board have used that way with some success. I know 7-10 curl tail worms and 12-16" diamond tail worms.

Del,

Do they cut a vent at the tip of the tail for the air to escape from?

[Delw]

On the curl tail they used a 1/16th dia. hole right at the tip. On the long 16" diamond tails They come vented.

the diamond tails will hand pour with no problem unless you use a super hard plastic as the flow is thicker.