Injection vs. vacuum vs. hand poured

[rsinyard]

I didn't want to high jack the Injection System thread but I would like to get clarification on these three methods.

1. Is the method used purely based on production levels? I know that the Injection/Vaccum methods are a higher production method than hand pouring but is there other reasons to use Injection/Vaccum over hand pouring?

2. What is the difference in the hand pour/injection molds? Can I use one of the molds Del made for hand pouring with an injection machine?

3. If any of you guys out there that are using the pressure pot injectors could make a short video of how it works, I would like to see it. I am not so much concerned with production levels. But if the pressure pot injection makes the process of pouring easier, I'm interested.

[Vodkaman]

I can only talk about the vacuum method. At the time there were many posts about difficult pours. So I ran with the idea to solve this problem, which it did.

There may be advantages from a pouring volume point of view, but I did not explore that possibility, except to say that the actual pour takes less than one second. With an efficient vacuum I would say multiple cavities can be poured simultaneously, in less than one second.

The artistic qualities of hand pours cannot be attempted with such a method, maybe a crude swirl, but that is about the limit. Vacuum cannot replace hand pouring.

Dave

[Delw]

I didn't want to high jack the Injection System thread but I would like to get clarification on these three methods.

1. Is the method used purely based on production levels? I know that the Injection/Vaccum methods are a higher production method than hand pouring but is there other reasons to use Injection/Vaccum over hand pouring?

2. What is the difference in the hand pour/injection molds? Can I use one of the molds Del made for hand pouring with an injection machine?

3. If any of you guys out there that are using the pressure pot injectors could make a short video of how it works, I would like to see it. I am not so much concerned with production levels. But if the pressure pot injection makes the process of pouring easier, I'm interested.

1. Unless your set up for it injection is a waste of time and money for a little guy. for example lets take a stil bait, you can pour them faster than you can inject the same mold. you will still need a multiple amount of molds wether injection or hand pour so why ad the cost of a injection machine( speaking hand injection not a zorn type machine.) an injection machine will allow you to shoot curl tails and very thin molds were as pouring would be impossible.

2, yes they can and are but only certain type of baits are worth injecting again curtails stuff and very thin stuff. Injection will allow you to shoot different colors using a slide bar, ( you will obviously need to injection machines.)

all the baits I have online are pretty much hand pour there are molds that would benifit using a injector if and only if you are trying for production. if its for yourself and you want to throw a few grand into it then it thats different

3. the injection doesnt make the process easier, it actually complicates it more. remember as your baits are cooling the plastic tends to settle so how do you keep them filled? unless your set up for it its worth it.

lets say for example you want to shoot 10" curl tail 2 piece wrom molds one color, hand pouring you have to pour the tails first. with injection you can do it all in one shot.

so it takes a second or 2 to shoot the bait, and depdnign on how hot the mold is up to a few mins before demold. so now you need more molds to shoot other wise you would be sitting around doing nothing and your plastic would be just sitting there hot. Not much sence in getting a injection machine.

to make the process work efficiently you would need to fabricate the injection pot to the table. then make the base of the table under the nozzle to accept a spring system. so you slide the molds under the nozzle pushing down and then let it go and it seats into the nozzle( keeping your hands free) open the valve and then close valve push mold down and slide in new mold.

YOU NEVER HOLD THE MOLD UP AGAINST THE NOZZLE EVEN UNDER 1-2 LBS OF PSI that would be suicide and just plain dumb.

I all honesty a homemade injection machine for 99% of the people is usless just a waste of money. you would have a few thousand dollars in molds and the machine to make it efficient.

You have to figure out is it worth the thousands to make a worm that you can buy for 5 bucks a bag for? example being the 10" curl tail berkley worm

if you have molds specifically made for a home made injection machine then your talking more cost than a standard off the shelf mold so figure that into the picture as well.

[rsinyard]

Great explanation Del. For me to make a decent looking bait, I need a two piece mold. With a one piece, I may pour the first one ok but it goes down hill from there. My hands are just not as steady as they once were. Thank goodness I didn't become a surgeon huh???

All that being said, I want to be able to pour the two piece curly tail molds (10" worm and 4" Y twin tail grub). What is my best option on getting a full pour. I have read here that the hand injectors from Jans is risky at best. Am I just out of luck?

One thing I thought about the other day on the 10" worm was moving the sprue from the top of the worm body to the bend in the tail. If you do that, would the worm tail and body both pour completely?

[Delw]

Great explanation Del. For me to make a decent looking bait, I need a two piece mold. With a one piece, I may pour the first one ok but it goes down hill from there. My hands are just not as steady as they once were. Thank goodness I didn't become a surgeon huh???

All that being said, I want to be able to pour the two piece curly tail molds (10" worm and 4" Y twin tail grub). What is my best option on getting a full pour. I have read here that the hand injectors from Jans is risky at best. Am I just out of luck?

One thing I thought about the other day on the 10" worm was moving the sprue from the top of the worm body to the bend in the tail. If you do that, would the worm tail and body both pour completely?

theres a few ways to use the hand injectors like what Janns sells and they can be safe as long as you have common sence. I mean your not going to goto the overn and pull out a turkey with your bare hands so why use your bare hands on a plastic injectpr ( I've done it and paid the price cause I was stupid at the time)

A tool is only as safe as the person using it, kinda like a gun it cant hurt anyone by itself but in the hands of someone that is careless someone can get hurt.

on the grubs and curltail molds that you are talking about you can pour them with hot plastic then shoot air from the injector in the, and refill those are the easy ones.

I know for a fact it works as customers tell me so.

if you have shakey hands you can use a pot (lees presto, sta warm etc) or you can rest your wrist on a phone book or 2 and pour that works really good and its about the right height.

moveing the spuce to the middle or anywere else wouldnt do much. other than cause air to be trapped in every groove on the top, which them you would have to drill holes in every groove for vents(more cost)wouldnt fill the tail and you would have the problem of triming a glob of plastic from the side of a bait which would make the bait look funny.

the shop vaccum deal would work on those above molds due to the amount of plastic and the heat it will generate.

Obvisouly the molds would have to be modified to accept a fitting to hook up to the vaccum ie more cost.

[GB GONE]

One thing I thought about the other day on the 10" worm was moving the sprue from the top of the worm body to the bend in the tail. If you do that, would the worm tail and body both pour completely?

This is the idea I had several weeks ago with some molds. I know it has been used many times before but I wanted to use it on my snake baits.

I am almost ready to put a picture up of the mold and the resulting bait. The sprue is at the bend of the tail and does allow for the body and the tail to fill properly. This is achieved in a pop mold only with many vents for air release.

I think that the same concept would not work with aluminum as previously discussed. Plastic will cool to quick and fill properly UNLESS injection or vacumm is applied. In these cases, you would not need to move the sprue to the tail area.

Back on the original topic.... I am moving back towards the origins and roots of hand pouring. 2, 3 and 4 colors baits with veins or core shots in one-sided molds. Del hit it on the head when he said it may not be worth the mold costs for a bait a big manufacturer can shoot for less than $5 a bag.

To me, hand pouring is as much an art as anything. I can dump plastic down the center of a hole in a mold with the best of them. That part is not really hand pouring to me. Not many can do things with plastic like Chris (Al's Worms), bass8baits, Nova and the many other artists associated with this site. They truely have a skill.

I definitely don't mean that if you don't hand pour, your not an artist or that it is wrong in some way to use the 2 piece molds. The pots are cool and efficient. Heck, I even use a microwave and I am sure that is not "old school"! For me though, I got into this to create things Zoom and Culprit could not.

Great thing about TU is that all of the different styles can learn something from the others to help push the hand crafting of baits forward.

Jim

[rsinyard]

I agree with you Jim. Making baits is an art form. I have been making jigs for several years now. Since becoming a member of TU, my interests have been peaked by what you guys have been making with plastic. I am amazed that something like your swimbait (attached pic) can be made. So I too am interested in how to make veins and multi-colored baits. Can these type baits be made in two piece molds? Is the swimbait mold you are using two piece?

I tried working with Charles (fishingskirts.com) on making a swirled skirt tab a while back but they couldn't make it work with a thin strip of silicone. So they came out with something close with the Living Image tabs.

But my reason for this post was to help me understand more about pouring plastics and the best way to go about doing that.

[GB GONE]

The bait you attached was made in a 2 piece mold. You still can pour veins and core shots in 2 piece molds but I have had mixed results with many good but plenty not-so-good!

I think the "best" way to pour plastics really is answered by what type of plastics you want to make. If you are looking to blast out 10,000 green pumpkin baits, go with injection or vacuum. If you want to make some Aaron's magic colored worms, get some cups/pots to start practicing. There may even be room for a mix of both as I have a presto pot for when I need to do a lot of sticks or frogs in a single color.

Heck, you may even figure out how to make 3 colored baits or veins (or something completely new) even more efficiently or better. That is the beauty of TU, one idea fosters another and away we go!!!

Jim