Downriver Tackle Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 BTW, the butyrate people refer to is called Cellulose Acetate Butryate, also know as CAB. It's a relatively harmless powder you just dissolve in solvent, so you might be able to find it for sale somewhere on the net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gf1sh1 Posted January 3, 2009 Report Share Posted January 3, 2009 CAB is cellulose acetate butyrate and CAP is cellulose acetate propionate both come pure in solid powder form and are additives used for numerous projects from toys, screwdriver handles and is even a carrier for drugs. the solvent you speak of was not taken from the tree as a solvent they were made into the ester. they are propionate and butyrate in any case. basicly, and i stress basicly, it's the same as dissolving in acetone. ester is easier to mix because it's already liquid form and theres not a long wait before it can be mixed thouroughly in CPES' case. in others for thermo-forming. and so on. and if you spend the money anything can be had, but without the proper license the powder can't be resold by federal law. it needs to be pellet form to unlicensed buyers. and finding the right stuff is expensive. needs the right hardness. or add plasticiser at an order of 500 bucks a pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 CAB is cellulose acetate butyrate and CAP is cellulose acetate propionate both come pure in solid powder form and are additives used for numerous projects from toys, screwdriver handles and is even a carrier for drugs. the solvent you speak of was not taken from the tree as a solvent they were made into the ester. they are propionate and butyrate in any case. basicly, and i stress basicly, it's the same as dissolving in acetone. ester is easier to mix because it's already liquid form and theres not a long wait before it can be mixed thouroughly in CPES' case. in others for thermo-forming. and so on. and if you spend the money anything can be had, but without the proper license the powder can't be resold by federal law. it needs to be pellet form to unlicensed buyers. and finding the right stuff is expensive. needs the right hardness. or add plasticiser at an order of 500 bucks a pop. The two solvents, EEP and IBIB, are solvents. There's no solids to them. 100% volitile. And there's no CAP in the CPES. It's an EPOXY. Many things are esters, from oils to solvents, to solid materials. The only relation is that they're the product of similar reactions and by no way are the end products necessarily similar at all. In almost 20 years of formulating coatings, I have only come across a few things that require a license to purchase and can guarantee you that you can purchase either CAB or CAP powder without a license of any kind or prohibited by federal regulation. A supplier may tell you that if they sniff out that someone is messing with it in their garage. The only issues are usually that it is only available in 50# bag minimum from suppliers, and shipping to a residential address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gf1sh1 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) if you've been formulating for that long you must know the definition of epoxy. all EPOXY means is more than one part, but mostly used to describe two. an ESTER not a solvent. it is an ESTER. which means it itself IS solvent in form, or, meaning a liquid chemical form. which are used as additives to give other chemicals different properties. solvent means an additive that creates liquid form or thins an existing form but is not normally used to describe a chemical meant as an additive, it can, but it's not. water based paint has solvent. water being the solvent. powder can be purchased. but not SOLD without proper license. so getting small quantities is near impossible. i never said it can't be bought. google the esters' names. propionate in any form is still propionate as is butyrate. had to edit. PROPIONATE is in it. i never said CAP was. but acetate may be i don't remember. and cellulose maybe too. which even if added days apart would still be CAP. just smokescreen man, that's all it is. peace. Edited January 4, 2009 by b1gf1sh1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) if you've been formulating for that long you must know the definition of epoxy. all EPOXY means is more than one part, but mostly used to describe two. an ESTER not a solvent. it is an ESTER. which means it itself IS solvent in form, or, meaning a liquid chemical form. which are used as additives to give other chemicals different properties. solvent means an additive that creates liquid form or thins an existing form but is not normally used to describe a chemical meant as an additive, it can, but it's not. water based paint has solvent. water being the solvent. powder can be purchased. but not SOLD without proper license. so getting small quantities is near impossible. i never said it can't be bought. google the esters' names. propionate in any form is still propionate as is butyrate. had to edit. PROPIONATE is in it. i never said CAP was. but acetate may be i don't remember. and cellulose maybe too. which even if added days apart would still be CAP. just smokescreen man, that's all it is. peace. Man, you are soo screwed up. That is not what "epoxy" means. Look up the chemical definition. By yours, automotive urethanes would be epoxies. While your at it, look up the definition and types of esters. IBIB is NOT a solid. It is a solvent. It evaporates and it's gone. Same old wood you started with. The proprionate or butyrates you need are solid materials, again. http://www.eastman.com/NR/rdonlyres/B42E4E67-CEFB-4C0D-97F0-800AA759D733/0/M270.pdf http://www.eastman.com/ProductCatSq/ProductHome.asp?Product=940 Edited January 4, 2009 by Downriver Tackle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1gf1sh1 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 lol. i did'nt comment to get insulted... the product states it has propionate. you say it has none. your the screwed up one. and yes. the car paint is epoxy. but the world can't just call everything epoxy. so it's assigned by general rule to only certain ones to avoid confusion. two parts or more reacting by catalyst or chemical infusion to form another different form is epoxy. most just think it needs to be inorganic plastics to be considered a candidate but that's wrong. and i don't need to look at eastman. most everything i know about CAP, CAB and esters including plasticiser ESTERS is from contacts there and their distributors. if you have a license for business, website and tax numbers and cash you'd be surprised what they can/will tell you. my next move is going to be making my own epoxy coating for lures, to save money. but thats a ways away. one last note. this site is full of misinformation and even dangerous things too. i've never had any question i asked answered correct yet. i'm just going to log out and return next year i think. good luck:popcorn: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 lol. i did'nt comment to get insulted... the product states it has propionate. you say it has none. your the screwed up one. and yes. the car paint is epoxy. but the world can't just call everything epoxy. so it's assigned by general rule to only certain ones to avoid confusion. two parts or more reacting by catalyst or chemical infusion to form another different form is epoxy. most just think it needs to be inorganic plastics to be considered a candidate but that's wrong. and i don't need to look at eastman. most everything i know about CAP, CAB and esters including plasticiser ESTERS is from contacts there and their distributors. if you have a license for business, website and tax numbers and cash you'd be surprised what they can/will tell you. my next move is going to be making my own epoxy coating for lures, to save money. but thats a ways away. one last note. this site is full of misinformation and even dangerous things too. i've never had any question i asked answered correct yet. i'm just going to log out and return next year i think. good luck:popcorn: I think you have POLYMER and EPOXY mixed up. You keep relying on your distributors, and I'll rely on my college education and almost 2 decades of formulating coatings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jameso321 Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Poor man's penetrating epoxy- Mix some etex. Thin it with about 60% etex and 40% denatured alcohol. Take two solo 16oz beer cups. Poor the solution cup to cup. Use this cup to cup pooring to cover your lures inside and out. This is very thin like water and covers quickly and penetrates wood fibers especially if wood is heated. Wear hand and eye protection (standard) -- Takes about 20 seconds per lure and is inexpensive. The alcohol will evaprote in a few hours. Keep area ventilated during this time. -- The epoxy cures in a normal time - can easily primer in 48 hours or less even. simple note: I had yet to try acetone instead of da, but I have done nearly 200 2-3 oz size lures with this method without error also: have option of heating the plugs in oven for 15 minutes (250 degrees or so) or microwave for a minute prior to sealing other things: never touch wood with fingers prior to this or pretty much any time while making lures. Oily fingers do bad things. You can use da to clean the wood though if you feal its dirty Edited January 4, 2009 by jameso321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Posted by B1gf1sh1 i've never had any question i asked answered correct yet. True, no one has answered any of your questions correctly. Also no one has answered any of your questions incorrectly. Have you answered any of our questions correctly? Who knows, they are not my questions and don't feel compelled to do the research to check them out. I don't mind sitting back and watching the two of you go at it though But if you want to throw your dummy out of your pram and walk away (until next year), go for it. I'm quite happy with the expertise on this site and am very confident that we will all survive. So bye for now and look I forward to 2010. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rclark12 Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 thts a similar technique i wuz told . just i was told you could heat a plug up and use straight envirotex and lay it on thick it will absorb... with your way and i litterly like dropping them in and scooping them out ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Boy did conversation this get heated! I prefer to let chemists figure out how to make the sealer and I just focus on making the lures! For me the CPES is the best sealer I've used and as they mention in their info, it remains flexible once cured unlike other epoxies. This helps allow the wood to expand and contract without splitting. I also think that this site has the best info anywhere on the web about lure making. Now if you're wanting specifics on how to create your own epoxy sealers, maybe this isn't the best source of info. It's like asking us how to create the steel that the split rings and screw eyes are made from and expecting anyone to be able to help. It's beyond the normal scope of questioning that we can be expected to answer from our own personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) Sorry for getting out of hand and hijacking the thread, but it pisses me off to no extent when someone just spews out absolute bull like it's fact. I don't want to come off as some chemical know-it-all, but I knew it was an epoxy, and also don't want to see someone chasing these proprionate and butyrate solvents down, thinking they're sealing their baits, only to find out that it all evaporated and they're left with the wood just like it was before they started and wasted all that time and money. We've all wasted time and money in search of the elusive perfect lure coating. Keeping the waste to a minumum is one of the reasons we're all here. Of the thousands of coating projects I've done over the years, finding the perfect lure coating(s) for all types has proven to be the most difficult project ever. 7 years and still learning and working on it. That's why I'm here picking your brains. Edited January 4, 2009 by Downriver Tackle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Balsa Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 For anyone trying to figure all of this out. Propionate is not a solvent. Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a solvent. Cut form the Eastman site. Product Description Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a non-HAP, slow evaporating, urethane grade solvent with good solvency for most coating resins. In lacquers and ambient cure enamels, this solvent could be used as a retarder solvent. Its slow evaporation rate allows for flow and leveling but does not prevent the quick rubbing and sanding of the lacquer. Many resins are letdown in a solvent thinning tank to make handling, storing, and shipping easier. Eastman n-Butyl Propionate could be used as letdown solvent because of its low volatility, good solvent activity, urethane grade quality, and high electrical resistance. Since n-Butyl Propionate is not on EPA's HAP list, it could be used as a replacement for xylene in coating applications such as high-solids thermoset enamels, processing solvent for high-solids acrylic resins, and coatings applied via electrostatic spray equipment. This is one of many Eastman solvents that can be used to replace the ExxonMobil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 For anyone trying to figure all of this out. Propionate is not a solvent. Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a solvent. Cut form the Eastman site. Product Description Eastman n-Butyl Propionate is a non-HAP, slow evaporating, urethane grade solvent with good solvency for most coating resins. In lacquers and ambient cure enamels, this solvent could be used as a retarder solvent. Its slow evaporation rate allows for flow and leveling but does not prevent the quick rubbing and sanding of the lacquer. Many resins are letdown in a solvent thinning tank to make handling, storing, and shipping easier. Eastman n-Butyl Propionate could be used as letdown solvent because of its low volatility, good solvent activity, urethane grade quality, and high electrical resistance. Since n-Butyl Propionate is not on EPA's HAP list, it could be used as a replacement for xylene in coating applications such as high-solids thermoset enamels, processing solvent for high-solids acrylic resins, and coatings applied via electrostatic spray equipment. This is one of many Eastman solvents that can be used to replace the ExxonMobil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 Here's a fresh can of worms for you. Using the proprionate solvent to dissolve solid proprionate in. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 DT, I think that was Palmetto was thinking, me too. It would probably solve the blushing problem by slowing down the evaporation. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Balsa Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 No argumentative response is necessary to this statement. I want to get a gallon of Eastman n-Butyl Propionate (a solvent) to test with the Propionate pellets (a solid) that I have been using with Acetone (a solvent). I think that the Eastman n-Butyl Propionate will help retard (slow) the evaporation of the Acetone and prevent the blushing. If this works and the blushing can be prevented then I think I can follow through with the testing I have already done. I made a very nice sprayable paint with the Propionate/Acetone solution and tried a few different retarders with it. If the humidity was a little high the Propionate paint that I was airbrushing with would blush. I want to get a gallon of the solvent to continue my Propionate paint testing and to add to the Propionate sealer dip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 4, 2009 Report Share Posted January 4, 2009 No wisecrack necessary to my reply. Your vague response would leave many to take it as I did. My apologies. Yours accepted too. It would probably work well as a blend with acetone. It would take forever to dry by itself. I'd start around 10:1 acetone to EEP. Another benefit would be that being similar in chemical structure, you'd probably get a thinner material with less solvent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rclark12 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 with a 60 to 40 percent mixture of etex to distilled alcohl is it still strong enough to seal the plug.......should i try closer to a 70 to 30 or just stick with plain etex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 rclark12 - I use Devcon 2 Ton 50/50 with denatured alcohol. Etex already contains solvent so I'd just try diluting it less or using it full strength. One reason I like the Devcon is it cures much quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rclark12 Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 ok thanks bob... were do you buy your devcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 It would probably work well as a blend with acetone. It would take forever to dry by itself. I'd start around 10:1 acetone to EEP. Another benefit would be that being similar in chemical structure, you'd probably get a thinner material with less solvent. Brought the subject up to our X-treme chemical guru today. He was familiar with both types of materials. His opinion was that it would be a waste of money to use EEP. I was wrong. It has nothing chemically similar to proprionate besides the fact that both are reacted with proprionic acid. You'll see no viscosity benefit. It goes for about $25/gal in pails for us(probably $50-75 at retail, if available), so you can accomplish the same thing with more readily available and cheaper solvents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 rclark - It's glue. Buy a 30 ml double syringe at Walmart for $2. Get the Two Ton, not the 5 minute variety. Other 30 minute epoxy brands might also work but this one is popular for undercoating and topcoating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rclark12 Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 so two ton denatured alcohol 50 50 mix is strong enough for sealing and over coat... seems like tht would dilute it too much... and how many plugs can you seal with tht little bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jameso321 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 (edited) etex sealing with DA, ive done 50/50 66/33 and 75/25 either way they came out nice 50/50 let the batch go longer way with maybe 20 plugs I was sealing at once really love this method I never really wanted to do full strength as its important to me to be thin enough to seal the inside wire through area without me killing myself trying to make sure its all in there. ------ It's good to hear this works with Devcon 2t because i was told it doesnt. Now I just need to find D2T in larger quantity. Those syringe thingys just not a lot in them even compared to what I am used to buying with etex quantity ---- If you are doing screw eyes types of lures, go for 90/10 maybe Edited January 10, 2009 by jameso321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
