Weird pour problem

[Termite]

Today I was pouring a new mold (bigger size) of the poision tail jig and on the 1/2 oz. size when I removed the excess lead from the pour hole the jig head had a hole in it, like there was a bubble in the lead when it cooled. It happend to about half of them. I have not had this problem in any other size. Any ideas? I was also pouring the 3/4 oz. size at the same time and it only happend to one of them. I poured 50 of each size and the mold was good and hot.

[Basseducer]

Termite,

Try slowing down the flow and fill the cavity a little slower. Sometimes this helps.

[21xdc]

I disagree... Fill it as fast as possible with good clean hot lead in a hot mold. The longer the lead stays molten the better for full pours. I would smoke the mold with a candle and make sure your pouring in a warm room.

Do-it Molds: Tackle Tips - Casting Problem Diagnosis Guide

[cz75b]

Sounds like a couple of things might be happening, any one of which will give you this result. Mold temperature, molds need to be hot. Alloy temperature, alloy needs to be hot enough for the alloy to stay liquid longer while pouring. Pour a large sprue, too small and shinkage will leave a void. Clean alloy, any dirt, wax or oil will screw with you. Smoke or treat the cavities, Midway makes a release compound for bullet casters that will make your castings fill out nicely and look like fine silver jewelry (if you use an alloy that is shiny.) And use an alloy like wheel weights, something with tin that melts lower and pours into the cavity and fills it out nicer than pure lead. Will be a little lighter but not enough to notice compared to pure lead. Why do all the casting books for lures say to use pure lead anyway? Almost to a fault they are all wrong, alloyed lead melts at a lower temp, fills the nooks and crannies better than pure lead. Am I missing something? Thanks...

[psv]

It happened to me when I tried to work with very hard lead. After I added soft lead (about 60% hard and 40% soft ) the problem disappeared.

Hope it helps

Regards, PSV

[cadman]

First of all there are a lot of variables here. I pour daily, summer, winter, fall and spring 5 -7 days a week. I live in the Midwest. I have very few bad pours once the lead is hot and the molds are hot. October through March are my best pouring months, with dead of winter being the best. I pour in my attached garage, and dead of winter it is about 40° out there. I found the low humidity season is the best time to pour for me. With that said, lead composition, temp. of lead pot, temp. of mold, definitely fluxing, angle of mold, how close the mold is to the pot and rate of lead pouring into the mold all have an effect on the outcome of the finished jig. I personally feel that all of these above are the most critical to achieve good pours. Everyone here will have their own system, so what I do may not work for you. I am only making suggestions here of what I encounter so these are only my observations. I’m not telling anyone hear how to pour. That is not my intention.

21xdc……I totally agree with you regarding to pour as fast as possible. I also believe that if you get the lead in there as fast as possible it will not cool as fast and leave voids. This is true providing the mold is properly vented. Lot of store bought molds need additional venting. As far as smoking the molds, I have not found a difference in doing this (not to say that it doesn’t work for others). Since I pour in the dead of winter cold does not affect pouring. You turn up the pot a notch keep your mold hot and pour away. However my ideal pouring location would be well ventilated warm room with no humidity.

cz75b…..Some things I will agree with you on like using a release agent, mold and pot temp. But making a statement not to use pure lead is incorrect. Hands down pure lead pours easier and fills better than hard lead. I have tried and tested this out. Also I have spoken to Do-It molds with some mold issues I’ve had, and they told me to use pure lead. First of all it does work. I used to pour pure lead and never had a pouring issue, but it dented too much for my liking so I don’t use it anymore. I currently use a 50/50 mix or 60/40 (60% hard 40% soft) for all my pours. I also pour straight hard lead with no problem. Also there was a post here awhile ago, where Basseducer had some problems and he used soft lead, and the problem went away, so soft lead does work. I have also spoken to many people and they say the same thing about pouring soft lead.

psv……good lead mix ratio.

Termite, the best suggestion I can give you is this. Look at the distance from mold to pot, look at the angle of the mold when you pour the lead (tilt it slightly left, right, backward or forward, look at how fast the lead is coming out of the pot, once you start getting good pours, and you can duplicate it continuously write that info on your mold, or on a piece of paper, so when you pour again, you don’t have that problem. You may have to have information on each cavity, since every cavity and every mold pours slightly different.

Edited January 3, 2009 by cadman

[21xdc]

I too have poured pure lead w/o any trouble. I did not like the lack of durability and went with a mix also. After 20+ years of pouring I have found that getting the pot flowing the fastest with a clean pour nipple, putting the mold as close to the nipple if not into the mold tight and use the pot as an injector for the hard to pour/fill cavities.

I forgot to post this earlier.... Good Luck.

[cadman]

I too have poured pure lead w/o any trouble. I did not like the lack of durability and went with a mix also. After 20+ years of pouring I have found that getting the pot flowing the fastest with a clean pour nipple, putting the mold as close to the nipple if not into the mold tight and use the pot as an injector for the hard to pour/fill cavities.

I forgot to post this earlier.... Good Luck.

You are right on the money here as well. I tried putting the mold sprue hole right up around the pouring spout like you mentioned, and on some molds, it does act as an injector with flawless pours. Also if this does work on a perticular mold, you can really crank out a lot of flawless jigs in no time. I forgot to mention this as well. Good added info.

[smalljaw]

I'm not sure if this will help or not since I don't use a bottom pour melter, but even using a ladle making the smaller sizes I had the same problem, break the sprue off and a hole is left. What I've done since is to make sure the hooks are at least room temp when you place it in the mold, I pour in my basement and it's a bit cool and I noticed that during the winter I had very few problems but the one problem I had was the hole in the top of the jig, now when I turn my pot on I place the hooks I'm going to use around a foot or so away from the pot, this makes them warm but not too hot that you can't pick them up, another thing to do is when your mold is good and hot is to put your hook in and close the mold and wait a few seconds before pouring, it may help because I found that my problem was the hook was causing the lead to harden quicker right at the bend. I hope this helps.

[cadman]

I'm not sure if this will help or not since I don't use a bottom pour melter, but even using a ladle making the smaller sizes I had the same problem, break the sprue off and a hole is left. What I've done since is to make sure the hooks are at least room temp when you place it in the mold, I pour in my basement and it's a bit cool and I noticed that during the winter I had very few problems but the one problem I had was the hole in the top of the jig, now when I turn my pot on I place the hooks I'm going to use around a foot or so away from the pot, this makes them warm but not too hot that you can't pick them up, another thing to do is when your mold is good and hot is to put your hook in and close the mold and wait a few seconds before pouring, it may help because I found that my problem was the hook was causing the lead to harden quicker right at the bend. I hope this helps.

Also a very good tip, that I forgot to mention. I do this as well. I also do this with wire forms, to keep them warm when you are pouring spinnerbaits.

Keep the ideas coming guys, eventually Termite wil find a solution that works.

[Termite]

Thanks for all of the replies, I'm sure I'll find a solution with all of the suggestions.

Here is one other quick question, I now have about 25 1/2 oz. jigs with a hole in their head on RED hooks Has anyone ever had any luck putting the head back into the mold and trying to fill the hole?

I would just melt the heads off but it will destroy the finish on the hooks.

[Vodkaman]

Can't help you with your latest question, but the original question about the bubble, I have one more suggestion.

The small air bubble is sticking at the base of the pour hole, so lightly tapping the mold on the bench, while the lead is still molten should release it. This could be deemed as risky, but you should be wearing protective gloves any way.

Dave

[21xdc]

Lead is heavy enough to raise the bubble to the top... You can not pour the bubble, Hot lead shy's away from cold lead and wont stick. Hold the hook at the round bend with pliers and dip just the lead into the pot until it melts off. Imediatly tap the pliers/hook on the edge of the pot and it will clean the hook off to pour again.

[cadman]

Thanks for all of the replies, I'm sure I'll find a solution with all of the suggestions.

Here is one other quick question, I now have about 25 1/2 oz. jigs with a hole in their head on RED hooks Has anyone ever had any luck putting the head back into the mold and trying to fill the hole?

I would just melt the heads off but it will destroy the finish on the hooks.

Termite,

I don't think that putting the jigs back in the mold will work. I don't think the lead will melt into the original body, however you can try it. Also be careful so you don't spring the mold. Lead jigs come out easier from a hot mold, then when you try to put cold jigs back in a hot mold. Finally are you going to paint these? If yes, then you can use JB weld to fill the hole. Leave it high, when it fully cures, you can go back and lightly file down the high spots and contour to the profile, or you can sand either way. This is naturally not the optimum solution, as you can see there will be a lot of tedious work involved. But if you want to salvage the jigs and not melt and re-pour then the above method is do-able. Once you contour the part, by filing, put on the powder paint as normal. Take a red marker and touch up your red hooks, put jigs in oven, and the heat will bake your paint and harden the maker ink. Don't overheat it. I've done this as an experiment when I was screwing around with lead fillers. One last thing, honestly it is easier to re-melt and re-pour. But this is your choice.............Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

[cz75b]

Pure lead pours better than alloyed lead? Not my experience pouring cast bullets for twenty plus years. Pure lead in its molten state just isn't as fluid as the lead-tin-antimony alloys and with small cavity molds like 22 caliber bullets, you almost can't get the mold to fill out with crisp details with pure lead at the temperatures most furnaces allow one to operate at. I suspect the folks who make the molds worry about exposure rates to trace elements in wheel weights like arsenic and that drives the pure lead recommendation. But alloy is only one factor and pour rate, direction, angle etc. is a good call, every mold has its own personality and the only way to be perfect is to try until you get it right. Save the pure lead for muzzleloader projectiles that need to be soft, it just hasn't worked for me well. Try a side by side pour with pure lead, wheel weight metal and linotype. You will never go back to pure lead. When you say hard and soft lead, what specific alloys are you talking about? Is soft lead pure lead? Of course the heat treating method of hardening an alloy only works with wheel weights and other alloys with certain other components, pure lead won't heat treat but that is another thread.

[cadman]

You apparently no more about lead than I do, and I commend you on your knowledge, but if you read almost any post with guys having problems pouring, it's usually hard lead and not soft lead. Many guys here have solved a lot of mold pouring problems going to soft lead. So I still don't buy your answer, but to each his own. I'm not here to argue. As far as not getting detail with soft lead, here is a pic of a jig poured with 99.999 % pure plumbers lead. I think you will agree that there is definitely detail in this pour.

[cz75b]

Forgot to mention the need to flux with alloyed lead/tin/antimony too. Keeps the different metals in solution which makes the flow better. I don't know more, just relating my experience and what I've read from bullet casting practices. Your jig looks nice, filled out well, is that a bubble under the eye to the left? As for the original question, the cold hook issue sounded like it could be the culprit. I hit jig cavities with the propane torch before a pour for the first few casts as the mold comes up to temperature. The other issue is will lead, wheel weights and other alloys be available in the future? Are we working on substitutes if and when this stuff gets rare and banished? If you want to see what the bullet casters are saying, try this group, Cast Boolits - Dedicated To The World Of Cast Bullets! Lots of cross pollination possible here.