akjohno Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) G'day all, I am a complete newcomer to luremaking and am keen to try carving something out of basic pine. I have tried a few times, trying to copy lures that i know work, but I can't seem to get my lures to swim if i use lexen flat bibs and putting the tow point in the body. Just trying to use basic shapes doesn't help either. Is it normally a problem with the lure shape or the bib angle? Do you need to make sure that you have the lure exactly symmetrical for it to swim? I am in North Queensland and am using the lures to chase Mangrove Jack and Barramundi, so i need a lure that gets to about 6ft and has the ability to roll at slow speed retrieve. Edited January 8, 2009 by akjohno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 What happens on the retrieve, does the bait roll over or just come in like a stick, with no action? A photograph would be very useful for members to help you, with some sizes or photograph the bait with a measure in the pic. Welcome to TU. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) @ akjohno At first , welcome to TU ! Certainly your lures have to be as symetrical as possible , viewed from top/belly and from front/rear . The larger the lure is , the more it would forgive little inaccuracy about the symetry , but always try to achieve the possible best . Indeed there are some configurations about linetie placement and bib size and angle , that simply would not let a lure perform well . Like Dave has said already , best would be , if you'd post a few pictures of your lure(s) , so I am sure , you'd get a lot of answers in here about what might possibly go wrong ! greetz:yay: , diemai Edited January 8, 2009 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 John You would be tempting fate throwing a wooden lure at a 'jack', it would be like throwing it into a pencil sharpener - but I think that is part of the fun, just go and make another one!! Like Dave and Diemai say, grab a digital camera, and show us a picture, and they will soon analyse what is going wrong - don't worry, no one will laugh, we all started here. If you are not sure how to load a picture, go to the home page, there is a 'tutorial' on how to load up pictures "Site Usage Instruction" -> "Adding Photos to Your Post", even I got to do it, with a bit of tuition from 'VodkaMan' (Dave).pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatfingers Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Sounds like those Aussie fish are mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike-A-Pike Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 If you are not sure how to load a picture, go to the home page, there is a 'tutorial' on how to load up pictures "Site Usage Instruction" -> "Adding Photos to Your Post", even I got to do it, with a bit of tuition from 'VodkaMan' (Dave).pete Pete, I thought I added pictures to go along with the explanation... Just for the Record... This is the type of situation that pictures in the lure building forum are supposed to address, a pure "How do I.." or "What's wrong with..." Photos that ask or answer these types of questions belong here. Photos that are just show a "First attempt..." or "I just finished this..." belong in the Gallery only and are subject to being deleted and/or given an infraction. The Site Rules were updated recently, please make sure your aware of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basseducer Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 akjohno, First of all, forget anything you've read and RUN. No really welcome aboard and listen to these guys, they know what's what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akjohno Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Now remember you said you wouldn't laugh.... This is the one I haven't added the towing eye to yet. I can add two other lures that didn't work either if you like, but i would have to do them in another post. Andrew. Lure #1 Edited January 9, 2009 by Spike-A-Pike Just numbering for discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akjohno Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) This lure didn't swim either. Any ideas? Lure #2 Edited January 9, 2009 by Spike-A-Pike Just numbering for discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akjohno Posted January 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Nor this one. These are the only three lures i have ever tried to make. I have no idea on the processes involved, and i couldn't seem to find anywhere on the site that gives steps. Could anyone point me in the right direction. It seems like it could become addictive. Andrew. Lure #3 Edited January 9, 2009 by Spike-A-Pike Just numbering for discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 @ akjohno Welcome to the club ! Luremaking definately is addictive:yes: ! I'd say , that at first you need to improve the symetry of your lures , I can figure out by the top view , that the tail end sides of especially the two painted ones are not equal . Second is , if you really intend to go for "pencil sharpener" toothy fish , you need to rig your lures thru wired , the fish might shred your lure to pieces , but would still hang on . I have posted some pictures showing , how I do the thru wiring , in your case I might probably even make closed eyes to the wire form . Well , I think that the main reason for the failure of your lures is , that the lips are a little too large and , I hazard a guess , that the lures do not have any internal ballast weights . All in all the general configuration of line tie and lip seems to be OK , on the darker green lure the line tie is placed a little too much towards the tip of bib , but normally this only results into less pronounced wiggle , not total failure . On the lighter green lure the base of the lip(lip slot side) is too wide , it should be much narrower there to transist to its greatest width at about the tow eye location . This has to do with leverage around the tow eye , the oncoming water pressure on retrieve tends to push on the lip . Because of that the lure should be forced downward and would also break out sideward . If now the lip is too wide on its base , the pressure below the tow eye equals the pressure above it and causes the lure to dig down only , but not break out sideward . This sideward breakout is limited , or better say counterforced , by the pull of the retrieved line , this force tracks the lure back for an instant , but just to break out to the other side , thus the lure wiggles ! If now the lure does not have sufficient sideward stability in the water to counterforce that leverage around the toweye , it would overturn and/or spin . In this case also a size reduction of lip , leading into less pressure on the lip and/or placing ballast weights into the deepest part of lurebody would cause the lure not to overturn anymore but wiggle . Its quite hard to explain and there are so many issues about crankbait dynamics corresponding one another, and I am sure that different guys would have different explanations , but this is how I see it . If you would specify about the problems , I could maybe give more detailed answers . keep on carvin' , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 John, I have never made a lure with the staple in the lip, which is very popular here (Australia), but many guys on here have, and would be able to add some to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 John- I will also second Diemai's comments, looks like we were working on it at the same time. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Both the above replies are good, I would only add the following. I suspect the baits are rolling over (death roll). The ballast needs to be lower. You need to increase the depth of the belly to accomodate the ballast lower. On the bodies you have already cut, try mounting the lead further forward. This might help, but keep the lead low. You should concentrate on shallow runners first, to get a feel for the various adjustments that can be made. The deep divers, with the eye on the lip are much harder to adjust as the eye position on the lip is critical. Painting your first lure is pointless, as this lure will inevitably be cut and hacked to get everything right and working. You will need to add the hooks and a full top coat, as these things affect the result. I usually add an extended tow eye on my prototypes. This allows me to bend the eye up and down, effectively trying out different eye positions and noting the results. Thanks for the pics, but you never told us how they swim. Did you add ballast, were did you put it. The more information, the more help we can give, otherwise we are just guessing. It is a learning process, it does not take long if you are organised and make notes. One more thing, only change one thing at a time, otherwise you will not know which change worked, two changes could even cancel each other out and you will never learn anything. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike-A-Pike Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Andrew, With Lures 2 & 3, can you explain what they are doing versus what you would like them to do? I think the feedback to this thread is OUTSTANDING!!! Thanks to all the contributors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Mangrove Jack, great to catch, they look aggressive, and they are!! Only ever caught 2, but very nice to eat. Nice eyes too.pete [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 @ hazmail Really looks like a lure shredder , how big do they get ? Once saw a vid somewhere of a "Rapala Super Shad Rap" messing with a 150+ lbs Nile Perch , the tail of the lure has aready been missing and the internal harness stuck out of the belly of the bait ! greetz:yay: , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Diemai - I made some lures about 16 years back for Barramundi fishing in Western Australia (Victoria River), same thing happened, they pulled the 90 lb wire harness out (38lb fish). Barra are very similar to Nile Perch, in fact I think they are the same fish, just different sides of the Indian Ocean, they also get bigger there..?? I may be hijacking the thread here, but here's a description, and weights etc.pete "On offshore reefs at a depth of 100 metres. Mangrove Jacks can reach more than 1.2 metres and a weight of 15 kilograms but fish in inshore waters are a real handful at 1 -3 kilograms. The Mangrove Jack is often confused with the red bass, a much more notorious ciguatera species. The Mangrove Jack has a taller dorsal fin, a lack of lengthwise stripes on its side and the absence of black on fins. Mangrove Jacks lack the distinctive pit before the eye of the red bass which is predominantly a coral reef species. Fishing: Mangrove Jacks are the toughest and dirtiest fighters in Australian waters. They will dash out and engulf a lure or bait and break off an unwary angler on the nearest snag before they realise the strike has been made. As a result, mangrove jacks require quality, well maintained gear and tight drags. They can destroy cheap equipment as they dive into snags. Mangrove Jacks like tough dirty cover although they can be found in deeper holes in tidal waters where they are a bit easier to handle. Diving lures, spinner baits, jigs and flies work well for jacks. They will take cut or whole fish baits, prawns, crabs and especially live baits. The strike is savage and a prelude to the action to come. Mangrove Jacks should be handled carefully as their dorsal spines can create a nasty wound, especially on water softened hands. Jacks can also take a nip at fingers while being unhooked, but they are a hardy fish which survives handling well. The mangrove jack is good eating but in offshore waters should be carefully identified as red bass are a dangerous ciguatera species. Minimum size: 35 cm Bag limit: 10" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 @ hazmail Truly those Barramundi and Nile Perch look quite alike , but the Africans get bigger , I guess . Thanks about your describtions , very interesting ! @ akjohno Sorry about hijacking your thread a bit , but it was just about lures for those Mangrove Jack's ! greetz:yay: , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akjohno Posted January 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Thanks for all your help guys. I kind of gave up on the two that were painted earlier as my brother-in-law had told me it was hard to make lures with tow points in the bibs. I was going to try to stick with in-body tow points. I will probably be going over to his house some time today, so i will give the new (unpainted version) a swim and let you all know about how it swims etc. I don't have access to a pool unless i go over to his place to swim them. So, to confirm, i will need to rig the lures with eyelets and trebles to make sure i get the lure to swim? I haven't used any ballast before, didn't know you had to actually. Is there anywhere on this site i could go to get a run down of the steps and equipment required to get a basic piece of timber to swim like a lure? Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 @ akjohno Certainly you'd have to rig your lureblank with eyelets and hooks for testing it prior to painting and to determine about amount and location of eventually required ballast weight . I would also advise you to first apply a protective topcoat to protect the blank from water sepage whilst testing , as this would probably render the wood heavier after a time and make up for inaccurate balancing of the lure . Also the wood grain would rise up and you'd have to sand it smooth again before painting , which also could not be done straight away , since the bare wood must dry thorougly prior to further painting after the first test . One or two topcoats of simple clear laquer are enough for the purpose(I prefer acrylic paint) , you might later buff it a bit for better adhesion of the first primer coats . To determine about the weighting , I stick on some leadshot onto the lures belly with plastic tape , so I can quickly change amount and location for each test run in the pool or bath tub , I'd quickly find out about the best position that way . After the test I'd permanently glue in the weights into holes drilled into the belly of the lureblank , close them and work flush to body outline . Usually on crankbaits like your lure's shape the weights would be located between belly hook and diving lip , or just behind belly hook or both . As a rule of thumb the more forward the weight is placed the deeper the lure would run , the more to the rear , the better it would cast . But most likely a weight more behind would cause the lure to wiggle less ! So you see , it's a matter of trial and error , most likely ! Sorry , I can't think of any thread in particular to provide more basic info for you , but I'd recommend utilizing the search function on top right column of the page . Type in a keyword like for example "ballast weights" , "thru wire" , "lip shape" , "diving lips" , "new to luremaking" , " , "lure shape" ,.........etc. , you'll definately get some results , but you'd have to browse your way through , you WILL find something useful to you ! I remember , that some time ago I have opened a few threads in here containing some step-by-step pictures , search for "banana lures" and "superbug" , maybe you would find something useful in there as well ? Some brief describtions you will also find on Lurebuilding 101 ! Should be the English version of that Dutch site . good luck , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akjohno Posted January 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 Well, i finally got to the pool today to test swim the new lure. I used the advice i received off the thread to make the lure more symmetrical etc. I tried the lure with the bib that was in the photo (the unpainted one) and it dead sticked to its left when swimming towards me. I tried some of my brother-in-laws cupped aluminium round bibs and it swam like a champion, had a nice wiggle etc. I then tried one of his aluminium bibs that was shaped like a guitar pick and when end for ended it so that the pointy end was out and the rounded end into the body (like a shovel nose shark), wow what a result!! It rolled, it wiggled and swam better than a bought one, might have to try and work out why now i guess. Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 John- "might have to try and work out why now i guess". Your in, your addicted, and you are gone - you realise this is the end of the world as you have known it. Better get used for those sleepless nights, and half hour showers.pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted January 11, 2009 Report Share Posted January 11, 2009 @ akjohno I 100% join in Pete's statement , you're finally hooked ! You've have gone through your first trial and error steps and you have succeeded ! I bet that you already have some new or different lure , or at least lip styles on your mind , that urge you to put to practice ! Congratulations , surely you have already learned quite a bit about the crankbait dynamics , and yet more lessons to come ! PS : I often make aluminium bibs for my lures as well , they don't look as professional as transparent ones , but they have the advantage to carefully bend them up/down to alter the lures action or bend them straight , if the lipslot should have turned out to be not accurately 90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
