Propionate blush cure?

[trollscot]

I have tried using propionate but get the white blush problem due to humidity.........do you think this idea will work?

Make a small drying box or cupboard and put one of the small dehumidifers inside the box and cure the propionate in the box/cupboard,has anyone tied this?

[hazmail]

If the humidifier is electric, I would not try this, the solvent in the Prop (acetone or lacquer thinners) is highly volatile. I don't have this problem here, but I know it has been covered somewhere. Someone will chime in here pretty soon, and give you a lead, but DON'T use anything with a fan in it.pete

[Jwags]

I run a dehumidifier in my basement, along with a coal stove. Do you think it'd be a problem for me to cure my propionate coated lures there? How many volatile fumes are a few lures going to give off?

jeremy

[Vodkaman]

The sealed box with a dish of acetone inside should do the trick. Better still, warm a dish on the oven for five minutes, or pour some boiling water in the dish to warm it up. Then pour a splash of acetone in it and place in the box. Then dip your bodies and hang in the box.

This is based on Palmetto Balsa's recomendations on this problem. He suggests hanging the lure in a large jar with some acetone.

Please post back if the box thing works out, as I plan on using this method too, in a few months.

Read Palmetto's classified for prop, tons of useful information there.

Dave

[Spike-A-Pike]

If your wanting to use an isolated space to control the humidity, you may want to experiment with some of the various desiccants... It would be far safer than putting an electric heat element in an explosive environment.

[hazmail]

Jaywags - Like I tried to indicate I don't know how these 'humidifiers' work, I have never seen one, so you are right. As for the coal stove, you should be right with that too, but have a look at this first -

ACETONE

See "Fire Fighting Measures" -

- lower explosive limit is 2.5%, and it is twice the weight of air, so have a sniff around the floor, if your air intake to your coal furnace is low, hang on.pete

[Swede]

Are you painting on top of prop? If so why are you afraid of the blush? I have never bothered to remove it unless i use prop for a topcoat . I havent seen any reaction from underlaying blush whatsoever on the lures i made .

[Downriver Tackle]

I have tried using propionate but get the white blush problem due to humidity.........do you think this idea will work?

Make a small drying box or cupboard and put one of the small dehumidifers inside the box and cure the propionate in the box/cupboard,has anyone tied this?

That can be easily cured with different solvents. Because it's blushing, I assume you're using acetone. Acetone is partially water soluoble, so it just loves gathering moisture out of the air. The definite cure is to add a solvent that evaporates slower than water, like MAK, Methyl Amyl Ketone @ 10:1 acetone:MAK, which should be available at most any auto paint supply store. Or you could try adding a slow evaporating automotive reducer at the same ratio, maybe more reducer. Lastly, you could try toluene @ 4:1 acetone:toluene. One of those will cure your problem for sure.

[Palmetto Balsa]

I think that all three of these links will give the same solution to the problem.

You should be able to find the answer by the highlighted words. They are also good reads for propionate.

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/hard-baits/14947-topcoat-issues.html?highlight=propionate+blushing Reply #6

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/hard-baits/15250-propionate-mixture.html?highlight=propionate+blushing Reply #27

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/classified-ads/14010-propionate-wood-sealer.html?highlight=propionate+blushing Reply #4

[Jwags]

Pete,

thanks for the info. It's not something that I had thought that much about- I appreciate the warning!

jeremy

Edited January 9, 2009 by Jwags

[trollscot]

Are you painting on top of prop? If so why are you afraid of the blush? I have never bothered to remove it unless i use prop for a topcoat . I havent seen any reaction from underlaying blush whatsoever on the lures i made .

I want to use the propianate as a top coat so i want it as clear as possible:)

[trollscot]

I have seen some cellulose anti bloom thinner will this work with the propianate, will it dissolve the pellets?

[SmokeyJ]

That can be easily cured with different solvents. Because it's blushing, I assume you're using acetone. Acetone is partially water soluoble, so it just loves gathering moisture out of the air. The definite cure is to add a solvent that evaporates slower than water, like MAK, Methyl Amyl Ketone @ 10:1 acetone:MAK, which should be available at most any auto paint supply store. Or you could try adding a slow evaporating automotive reducer at the same ratio, maybe more reducer. Lastly, you could try toluene @ 4:1 acetone:toluene. One of those will cure your problem for sure.

DT, is MAK easily attainable for a home lure builder? If so, where would be my most likely source to find it? Also, I didn't look at the MSDS, but are there any health concerns using it over and above common solvents like acetone, lacquer thinner, etc.?

[Downriver Tackle]

DT, is MAK easily attainable for a home lure builder? If so, where would be my most likely source to find it? Also, I didn't look at the MSDS, but are there any health concerns using it over and above common solvents like acetone, lacquer thinner, etc.?

Should be relatively easy to find. Almost any automotive paint supply store will have it. Sometimes it's marketed as slow reducer or something of that nature. If you can't find a store, just ask your local body shop who their supplier is. If you can find PPG automotive paints somewhere, they'll have it. We have a chain in this area called "Painters Supply Store" that supplies all the area body shops and smaller industrial places. It's worth the search. It's a great solvent to cure blushing and gives you a like-glass finish.

About the same health concerns as lacquer thinner.

[KcDano]

If you can't find the MAK you should be able to find lacquer retarded. Which is the slowest drying thinner available for lacquer. Not much is needed so use sparingly. You are probally not going to find a lacquer reducer, solvents for lacquer are known as thinners for the most part. You reduce enamel and thin lacquer for what its worth.

[Downriver Tackle]

If you can't find the MAK you should be able to find lacquer retarded. Which is the slowest drying thinner available for lacquer. Not much is needed so use sparingly. You are probally not going to find a lacquer reducer, solvents for lacquer are known as thinners for the most part. You reduce enamel and thin lacquer for what its worth.

HUH????? In 20 years, I've never heard that before. Reducing and thinning are the same regardless of type of paint. It's like calling soda, pop. Different name, same thing. I don't want to argue and get anyone upset again, but incorrect information doesn't make the search any easier.

You are right about the retarder though. It is a blend of slow solvents, but does varies by brand. There's no specific formula for "retarder", but it usually is mostly MAK.

[KcDano]

Since the mid 70's I have used Dupont, Sherwin Williams, RM, PPG and many others. They all mention reducing enamel and thinning lacquer. Additionally, I have never seen a gallon can of enamel thinner or lacquer reducer in 30+ yrs. Keep in mind I am specifically speaking of automotive finishes. Perhaps this was done to avoid confusion between the two.

[Downriver Tackle]

Since the mid 70's I have used Dupont, Sherwin Williams, RM, PPG and many others. They all mention reducing enamel and thinning lacquer. Additionally, I have never seen a gallon can of enamel thinner or lacquer reducer in 30+ yrs. Keep in mind I am specifically speaking of automotive finishes. Perhaps this was done to avoid confusion between the two.

I agree and have always wondered why the "big boys" do that. The only thing I've theorized over the years is that it's all about price and preception. "Reducers", as marketed, are usually for high-end coatings like automotive paints. "Thinners" are usually marketed to lower cost general comsumer products. Mineral spirits is a great example. It's marketed on the automotive end for old single-component lacquers as a "reducer", usually under some cool sounding name. BUT, you'll see it at harware stores marketed as thinner (for enamels ), cleaner, reducer, or god knows what.

To clarify a few things. "Enamel" means nothing more than a hard and glossy finish. Could be ANY type pf coating that fits the bill, with no specific definition of "hard". One again, marketing has dilluted the true definition. And lacquer means nothing more than a paint that dries by evaporation of solvents without any catalyst, hardener, etc. Once again, could be many types of coatings. Lacquers can be enamels, and enamels can be lacquers. We have several "lacquer enamels".

I'll tell you what. As a coatings formulator, who payed his way through education applying the coatings from rolling rooms with latex to airbrushing and spraying cars, to painting auto interior components, marketing is my biggest enemy!!!! I try to make it easy and understandable for the average guy, from being there, and they try to jazz it up and make it a "secret" and confusing to make you think you are getting something special for the ungodly price. Unknowingly, you end up using a common material at 100x the price, and thinking you're dealing with some special process and blend that we sell to some other industry for pennies on the $ that the automotive industry pays.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Downriver Tackle

[KcDano]

Yes there is a lot of bs surrounding paint companies. I know at one time the catalyst/hardeners for almost all the major US paint companies was made by a company TN, Barr i think?. The same thing went in many different brand cans. I don't know if that is still true today or not. I shoot basecoat thinned with cheap virgin thinner, instead of the basecoat maker. I have had no problems as of yet and it is 1/4 the cost.

[Downriver Tackle]

Yes there is a lot of bs surrounding paint companies. I know at one time the catalyst/hardeners for almost all the major US paint companies was made by a company TN, Barr i think?. The same thing went in many different brand cans. I don't know if that is still true today or not. I shoot basecoat thinned with cheap virgin thinner, instead of the basecoat maker. I have had no problems as of yet and it is 1/4 the cost.

With the catalysts/hardeners, it's just a few companies that package them. Because of health and reaction concerns, most paint companies don't want to deal with isocyanate, the hardener for auto paints. Mix it with water and you could have a pressure explosion. Disperse enough vapors in the air, and the oxygen in your lungs could crystalize. Most companies, including my previous employer, sends a formula to a company who blends/tests/packages the catalyts. Few companies, like us, do it ourselves. Only because we have nitrogen to blanket it in. Just like Dick Nites, which I almost guarantee uses Isocyanate, it reacts very quickly with moisture in the air.

[KcDano]

Isocyanates are bad, that is another thing paint companies have managed to do. Yes, the hvlp paint produces less air pollution, But much more toxic for the person applying.