jcarman Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Hey guys, I need some help- I am making some thin blade dodgers for trout and kokanee fishing. They are a stainless steel blade about 4/5" long. Usually I just use some WTP prism tapes to decorate them, but this time I painted them with some createx paints. They came out awesome, but when I put the DN top coat on many little craters appeared on the surface. When I first sprayed it on it came together real nice and glossy, but then after a few minutes it started to make the craters. :eek:All of them but one did this. I have used DN on my lures over createx paints with no problems and even on straight nicklel blades. Anyone have this happen and have a remedy for me? Thanks in advance for any help you can give- jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 My guess is that somehow you got something on the blades that is preventing adhesion. This might be as simple as oil from your fingers. Clean the surface of them thoroughly with a paper towel and rubbing alcohol and try spraying over the top of them. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Yep, surface contamination is your culprit. With some top coats, even having them near anything with silicone can cause the fish eyes (craters) to appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Did you heat set the paint? From what I have read, heat setting createx paints makes a difference with the top coat. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 It should only effect the durability of the paint if it's not been heat set. The fish eyes would be from solvent pop or surface contamination in my experience and from what I've read on airbrushing forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Your specific description sounds like maybe you thinned the DN with solvent and it prevented the DN from forming a continuous film as it flashed off the surface. If so, try dipping them in straight DN - it's formulated for that, after all. I've done a few spoons dressed with WTP and acrylic latex like that - dip'em and hang'em - and they turned out fine. Edited January 15, 2009 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcarman Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Guys- Thanks for all the tips. This site is the goods! As far as contamination, I went straight from paint to top coat, so they were never handled. I didn't think the DN, so that wasn't a possibility either. What do you guys think about maybe the createx wasn't completely dry? Would that do it? I did not heat set it, and it is cool back here right now. maybe it still had some moisture to it. I have never tried dipping stuff in DN. Does it leaf a drip at the bottom when you hang the lure? Do you have to tend to that before it dries? I am interested...what kind of a container do you use..something tall and narrow I assume. Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate this website! Snax, those eyes are awesome! I am going to need to order some more, can you PM me and let me know the info again? Thanks again- Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clamboni Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Are you spraying any differently than before? Heavier coats? Cold surface? Just some possibilities........but it really sounds to me like there's contamination in there somewhere. Is there any DN in the bottom of the craters? or did it completely pull away and leae the paint uncovered? Possibly the createx not being completely dry. When your'e spraying, as long as you keep the coats light there's no need to heatset, but you still need it dry of course. Maybe there was something on the metal that bled through the paint? You could try a couple more lightly misted coats followed by a couple heavier ones to see if it will level out over the craters. I always thin it, BTW, not a whole lot but for me it really improves the finish if it has a couple extra minutes of being fluid. As far as contamination, it can sometimes only take a few specks of dust to ruin a coat. Edited January 15, 2009 by clamboni added last sentence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 DN is thin enough for the excess to drip off a spoon within a minute. I haven't seen any hanging drips on mine. Yeah, you have to have a container deeper than the lure is long:) If you've been using DN, you probably already know its handling and storage quirks. Dipping makes them more important to observe. Don't let DN drip back into the DN container. If you use DN on an "occasional basis" it will often begin to cure when the container is about half full because too much air stays in the container when it's sealed. I'm trying something that Dean recommended, i.e. Bloxygen to stop that. It's an aerosol can of argon/nitrogen gas you spray into the container just before you seal it again. The gas prevents air from getting to the surface of the DN. So far, so good after a couple of months using the stuff. Bloxygen has a website where you can order. I like dipping becaue it gives even coverage and it's FAST FAST FAST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downriver Tackle Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Guys-Thanks for all the tips. This site is the goods! As far as contamination, I went straight from paint to top coat, so they were never handled. I didn't think the DN, so that wasn't a possibility either. What do you guys think about maybe the createx wasn't completely dry? Would that do it? I did not heat set it, and it is cool back here right now. maybe it still had some moisture to it. I have never tried dipping stuff in DN. Does it leaf a drip at the bottom when you hang the lure? Do you have to tend to that before it dries? I am interested...what kind of a container do you use..something tall and narrow I assume. Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate this website! Snax, those eyes are awesome! I am going to need to order some more, can you PM me and let me know the info again? Thanks again- Jeff If you didn't heat set it, and it's cool, I just about guarantee that is your problem. Residual solvent left in the Createx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Yes, Heat set it thoroughly! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcarman Posted January 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Thanks for all the help. I duplicated what I had done the day before only heat set the paint thoroughly and warmed everything up. Its cold out here in California..68 degree high yesterday and 54 last night...chilly! And if we don't get any rain in the next few months, all this lure building is for not cuz there won't be any water in our lakes anyway! I digress...the DN top coat went on very nice and smooth. I was just rushing things I suppose. I am using the Bloxygen and it works great, thanks for that tip. I am going to try and find a container that will allow me to dip some lures and some dodgers and see how they come out. I like the FAST, FAST, FAST part! Is anyone using DN on striper or bluefish lures? I am still using D2T since it is so rock-hard, but if I could switch to DN it would sure be faster! I just don't know how it will compare and hold up! Thanks again for all the hellp- Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 After removing finish from several lures coated with D2T and Dick Nite, my opinion is the Dick Nite is tougher. It adheres better to acrylic paint and has a slick finish that is more resistant to hook rash. Is it quicker? Depends on how you measure - time of actual work on the bait or time waiting around for finish to harden. DN is faster to apply if you dip lures but it's much slower to completely cure (about a week) compared to epoxies (about 24 hrs). The Dick Nite lure can be handled in 4-5 hours, seems hard in 24 hrs, but the moisture cure takes days to complete and it's what makes Dick Nite really tough. On a saltwater bait, I'd plan on 3 dips, each spaced 24 hrs apart, followed by a week or two to fully cure out. If you rush the dips, you can get wrinkling and bubbles ruining the finish. But with 3 fully cured dips, I'd put Dick Nite up against any clearcoat, factory baits included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clamboni Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) NOTHING is bluefish or striper proof. But I've fished a few lures on the NJ shore and caught some decent sized specimens of both, on plugs coated with DN and D2T. The Dn holds up better. There's definitely toothmarks and gouges in it but I'm happy with the way they looked after the fish I caught on them. Like Bob said, not even factory paintjobs are going to stand a chance against those fish. I also use a lot of smaller lures and don't lay it on that thick, maybe 6-7 lightly sprayed coats. If you start dipping, which is very attractive due to the speed of it, just know that it will fill in some fine detail in the bait. It doesn't level out over it like Devcon will, but it does fill in more than when you're spraying it. Don't know if that matters to you or not. Edited January 21, 2009 by clamboni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yes, what BobP and Clamboni said. I have used as many as 6 brushed coats on several of my own lures over several weeks, just to see how it would do, and I had excellent results. I knocked off the gloss with 1500, and wiped with alcohol and a tack cloth between thin coats, and they are beauties, the clear has depth and is bubble free, and the baits are very, very tough. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCBOS Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Dean I would sure like to try some Bloxygen. I will not open another can of Dick Nites until I have some remedy for loosing so much of it to the air. I've has a terrible time trying to get it. My first order was cancelled after about 2 months and after I had paid via Paypal, but I ordered again in December, but still haven't received it. Do they not like to sell in small quantities? What has your experience been in getting it? Is there another supply source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) DeanI would sure like to try some Bloxygen. I will not open another can of Dick Nites until I have some remedy for loosing so much of it to the air. I've has a terrible time trying to get it. My first order was cancelled after about 2 months and after I had paid via Paypal, but I ordered again in December, but still haven't received it. Do they not like to sell in small quantities? What has your experience been in getting it? Is there another supply source? Hey DUC! I ordered mine from a rod-building supply place in PA called Golden Witch. BobP bought some from another dealer somewhere else, and I think he paid less than I. He did a Google Search and found his supplier...I may have bookmarked it, and if I did, I'll be back with it, if Bob doesn't get here first. http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/search.exe Where Bob bought his I think. And this is where I bought mine, along with some nice 1/4" oxhair brushes for applying Dicknite's. http://www.2computerchicks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BLOX&Category_Code=FINISHES&Store_Code=GW Dean Edited January 22, 2009 by Dean McClain additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I believe that this thread answers some questions that are currently being asked in another Dicknite's thread. May I remind everyone one more time; If you're using Createx you must Heat-set Thoroughly!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatchingConcepts Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Yes, Excellent information here! Just the kind of hands on feedback I was seeking... Makes me wonder why I've been away from this place so long!! So what supplier has been the best to deal with on ordering and shipping in a timely manner at a decent cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 Ii seems as though i remember Bob paying a little less than I did for his Bloxygen, and we both received ours in a timely matter...I know I did--I assume that's what you're asking--it lasts a long time, but there's no way to tell how much is left in the can, as a new full can feels like it is empty. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatchingConcepts Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) Oh, sorry for the confusing post, I was speaking of the DN topcoat product availablity... I would think that DN is a secondary supplier of this product, and another poster had mentioned purchasing the product through another vendor under the product name Pelucid. Is Pelucid the same as DN product and are there other suppliers? Is there possibly a better vendor of the product that might be able to process orders quicker yet still cost competitive with DN ? Also one thing I noticed in the Pelucid description below is that it notes this product is for interior use, does this mean they are not endorsing it for exterior uses? PELUCID™ is one of the most advanced single component clear coats in the world. It's super clear, super glossy, and unbelievably tough! Spray or brush this non-yellowing single-component clear coat over painted or unpainted fiberglass, wood, and other interior surfaces that need a clear lustrous finish. The tough, yet flexible, coating dries clear as water, with a rock-hard finish that won't crack, chip, or peel. It's self leveling, which means it won't leave harsh brush marks. It can be recoated in 2 to 3 hours, depending on humidity, and will withstand temperatures up to 400 F. Two coats should always be applied, to achieve maximum beauty and protection. PELUCID™ has excellent adhesion qualities, and is highly chemical resistant. Edited January 26, 2009 by CatchingConcepts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I assumed you were talking about the Bloxygen because DUCBOS had posted that he had trouble getting the product from the manufacturer... Dicknite apologised awhile back for some service problems he'd been having. I hadn't heard of anything since then, other than someone said he hadn't responded to an email sent to the banner address. I personally have never had a problem getting product immediately, and I don't know why he'd spend money advertising here if he wasn't going to deliver. I have no idea whether or not Pelucid is the same product as Dicknite's topcoat, so I can only comment on Dicknite's. It is by far my favorite clearcoat, because of its durability, its simple, easy and quick bubble-free brush-on application, its versatility for any lure shape, because it doesn't pull away from edges, and its clarity. I don't believe that the learning curve with this stuff is any more difficult than any other clear; it is simply different. Since I learned how to keep it as fresh as the first day you open the can, I have no application problems whatsoever, and I don't think any product out there protects lures as well. Seal it well in jars with metal tops , and use a product like Bloxygen to keep the air from contacting it. I normally brush on 3 or 4 coats a day or two apart. After 2 days it feels cured, but full cure actually takes place in 30 days according to what the chemist who developed this stuff told Dick. I, and others have posted a lot of info on this site about it, so don't fear the search button; this info is normally easily found. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I read the Pelucid info in the link provided and it does say for interior use. You'd think with all the other toughness and gloss qualities, it would be water resistant. But ??? Dick Nite is obviously not a coatings manufacturer but that doesn't mean DN poly isn't uniquely formulated for him. There may not in fact be another source "out there" where you can buy the same stuff. I tried another moisture cured polyurethane before DN and it was not up to the same standard for coating baits AND was more expensive. Dick Nite is not a big company with lots of employees. I like instant service as well as the next guy but DN is being sold at a great discount to TU'ers, so couldn't we cut Dick a break? I ordered Bloxygen through a woodworking supply store and the wait was 2 months. The store said Bloxygen had problems getting containers and was behind on its orders. I'm not surprised others have had problems getting the stuff. Now if there was an alternate source for an aerosol argon/nitrogen finish preserver, that would be nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clamboni Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I googled bloxygen and found that a slo of guys were using regular dust off cans to preserve finishes with good results. I think it was anything that did'nt contain oxygen that they said would work. Only thing is that there was no mention specifically of moisture cured urethane in any of those sites. There was also mention of Bloxygen being pure argon, which I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatchingConcepts Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) I'm not finding any chemical makeup specs on DN site for the topcoat product, does anyone have such, or do the containers/ instructions include this and safety notice? I am curious of the hazards and ventilation requirements etc... Does DN contain Isocynates? I will use and completely endorse the DN product if it is the easiest and most cost effective coating available for our purposes, but if I can find other products with same qualities or better I think its worth looking into and sharing here? Moisture cure urethane seems to be the type of creature we are dealing with, and there are quite a wide array of these coatings, some with marine apps that look interesting. A little (very tiny) light bulb flickered in my head when thinking about these urethanes. Years ago when touring a custom paint shop who did a lot of airbrush work and such here in Cali I remember something... They were using components that when I asked if I could have a sample they gave me some, but told me it would be useless in several days as it was self-catalyzing. As they said "it kicks" when contacted by air and once started the whole can will go.. This sounds very much like the type of stuff you guys are dealing with... When I asked how they could store the products for periods of time without it curing on them they showed me a dispensing type rack that seemed to have containers with lids that not only drew off the product but replaced the missing volume with a condensed gas fed by a network of tubing to each container on the rack. Essentially they were doing what you guys are with the Bloxygen stuff, making me think, why couldn't you make a small scale replica of this dispensing system with a couple valves attached to the lid of a container, one draws product from the bottom through a tube in container, the other receives the pressurized gas from a canister / tube assembly. Thus the product in the container would be under pressure making it easy to dispense and any time you draw an amount of product you would be replacing (equalizing) the containers volume with no air being permitted to enter the environment? This sound plausible to anyone? And do we have any chemistry guys aboard? would such an easy compressed gas source such as CO2 canisters or airbrush propellant be viable or would that have negative reaction with the product? Wondering what readily available type of compressed canister gas would be most economical? Just my thoughts for the day... maybe I've been breathing too many fumes, I did primer coat quite a number of baits this afternoon... Here's my primitive system and results... Hence why I would really enjoy finding a topcoat that is user friendly both in application and storage. Edited January 26, 2009 by CatchingConcepts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
