akriverrat Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 i traded out some jigs for more lead in the form of bank sinkers. the guy told me that his buddy poured them all and had no use for them anymore. they been sitting in his garage for some time. they looked of good quality and still shiny. when i melted them down there was a mass of gunk floating on top that i pushed aside thinking it was tin or antimony and it would eventually melt. no such luck. is there something i can do to get this stuff to blend again? what do you guys think it is? i am used to pouring pure lead so this is a new breed to me. i am also looking for the harder lead for my thinner longer jigs. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagio Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I got some crummy lead on ebay once. Had the same result. I just skimmed it off with a ladle, I just don't know where to discard it. I refuse to throw it in the trash because of the potential hazard. I was going to call a waste facility but haven't gotten around to it. ended up being about a cup of stuff that looked like dirt. I just have it in a box. Anyone know where to get rid of this stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Check out the "Fluxing" Thread that was so good ... has all you need to know in it ... it brings up what you are talking about. Hope that this will help JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akriverrat Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 the thing is that this stuff was melted before and mixed into the weights. if it is tin and anitomy i am wanting to use it if at all possible. it looks like a metal of some sort, its jsut not melting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) Now I might be mistaken on this, I don't think you can seperate the primary metals just by melting. So I would think it is crud of some such Edited February 16, 2009 by KcDano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) The fact that the ingots were shiny tells you that they contain significant amounts of something other than lead. Pure lead corrodes in minutes, it is quite a reactive metal, like aluminium. The layer of corrosion prevents further corrosion, a bit like a layer of paint, stopping the oxygen getting to the metal. http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/wire-baits/14776-looks-like-lead-but-doesnt-act-like-what.html this was a recent post on a similar problem. Didn't really get resolved here, but worth reading for comparison. Of the four common metal elements alloyed with lead (tin, zinc, antimony and bismuth), two have melting points higher than lead (621F), these are zinc (786F) and antimony (1166F). So your residue is probably one of these. If you heat the lead up more and the problem does not go away, then it is the antimony. I'm not so sure that the metals are supposed to separate like this (edit, Dano thinking the same), I thought that the melting point was altered. Maybe the original melt was not mixed in sufficiently, just theorising (guessing). If more heating does not solve the problem, then just skim it off. Here is the link to that thread on fluxing: http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/wire-baits/13893-best-lead-melt-flux.html it contains 7 pages of quality, useful information about alloys, thanks to Sagacious. The important thing is to report back when you find the solution, so we can all learn some. Dave Edited February 16, 2009 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 i traded out some jigs for more lead in the form of bank sinkers. the guy told me that his buddy poured them all and had no use for them anymore. they been sitting in his garage for some time. they looked of good quality and still shiny. when i melted them down there was a mass of gunk floating on top that i pushed aside thinking it was tin or antimony and it would eventually melt. no such luck. is there something i can do to get this stuff to blend again? what do you guys think it is? i am used to pouring pure lead so this is a new breed to me. i am also looking for the harder lead for my thinner longer jigs. thanks. Thanks for posting the link above, Vodkaman. With all the print expended on fluxing, it's somewhat surprising that the subject and practice is still mistunderstood. ALL lead alloys will, on occasion, appear to be "mystery lead" at some point to those without comprehensive knowledge of lead and it's various alloys. This will only prove true if one disregards the information posted above in the stickies about fluxing. Lead alloys containing tin and antimony will-- especially if overheated-- separate to form a layer of frothy oxides and other compounds on top of the melt. Adding more heat only makes it worse. It will not melt, it must be fluxed. I've posted several detailed replies to your techincal questions akriverrat, without a 'thanks' yet, but I'll try one more time and we'll see how it goes. In this case, the lead you received is clearly an alloy (probably just ww lead), and will behave somewhat differently than your usual pure lead. It is not unusual that it would remain shiny. Most lead alloys should not be heated as hot as you might heat pure lead, and that is-- almost unquestionably-- the proximal cause of your floating "gunk." If you reduce the heat a little bit (yes, I know it sounds crazy), and flux as described in the sticky post above, your mystery will dissolve just as surely as will the dross floating on the top of your molten lead. Done correctly, the fluxing will recombine the floating "gunk" back into the mix, and make pouring that lead a breeze. If you just skim it off, your lead will become softer due to the loss of alloying compounds, and without fluxing, you may expect to experience difficulties while pouring. Best of luck akriverrat, hope this helps. sagacious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Fellows if you have not read this information given to us by Sagacious (read all the threads) Very complete and really informative. I thought I knew what fluxing was until I read the instructions Sagacious gave .... been only partialy doing it off and on for many years ... Thanks to this information it solved a lot of the lead problems ... Do the cleaning and Fluxing in a seperate pot if you are pouring from say a Lee pot (Flux in the Lee pot when needed .. Yes) ... My waste has gone to all most zip using this methord. Thanx Saga .. JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hey "sagacious", thanks to the Forum dialogue here I no longer ruin my wheel weight melts with zinc. Was wondering tho if removing the surface sludge on a melt might improve a zinc contaminated mystery alloy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akriverrat Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I've posted several detailed replies to your techincal questions akriverrat, without a 'thanks' yet, but I'll try one more time and we'll see how it goes. sagacious thanks sagacious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Fellows if you have not read this information given to us by Sagacious (read all the threads) Very complete and really informative.I thought I knew what fluxing was until I read the instructions Sagacious gave .... been only partialy doing it off and on for many years ... Thanks to this information it solved a lot of the lead problems ... Do the cleaning and Fluxing in a seperate pot if you are pouring from say a Lee pot (Flux in the Lee pot when needed .. Yes) ... My waste has gone to all most zip using this methord. Thanx Saga .. JSC JSC, Thank you for the kind words. I'm pleased as punch that you found the fluxing info useful. Sound's like you've really got your melting process all dialed-in! Good fishing, sagacious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Hey "sagacious", thanks to the Forum dialogue here I no longer ruin my wheel weight melts with zinc. Was wondering tho if removing the surface sludge on a melt might improve a zinc contaminated mystery alloy? Hawnjigs, Glad the ww pouring is going well! That's a very interesting question about zinc contamination. One pitfall of a mystery lead alloy that doesn't pour well is that it's often difficult to determine what the offending alloy component is. Only a tiny amount of zinc is necessary to make lead difficult to pour, and that zinc is usually thoroughly mixed with the lead. As such, skimming will not help at all. Fluxing will help, and this is one of the reasons one must stir the mix well during fluxing-- to get at the bad stuff dissolved in the lead. Repeated thorough fluxing may be necessary. In severe cases of zinc contamination, even that may not entirely fix the problem. Skimming the scum off a difficult-to-pour lead alloy will almost always make the problem worse, since by skimming, one may be removing some of the tin component, or other beneficial alloy components. The value of restoring (by fluxing) the tin and antimony compounds in the scum are such that it's always better to flux than skim, and fluxing solves a host of other potential problems too. Hope this helps, good luck! Edited February 18, 2009 by sagacious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 thanks sagacious Glad to help. Keep us posted on your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I also owe you a big thanks Sagacious. Now when I am not getting good pours even with my pure lead, I immediately flux, and the problems seem to disappear. Your statement "Flux often" is dead on, it has saved me some wasted effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Exactly, "cadman". A quick flux when a pouring session starts to go bad often solves the problem. Thank you for addressing my question, "sagacious". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akriverrat Posted February 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 i misunderstood fluxing altogether. i thought it was only to get the bad stuff to float to the top and be skimmed off. had no idea it helped with the alloys as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 i misunderstood fluxing altogether. i thought it was only to get the bad stuff to float to the top and be skimmed off. had no idea it helped with the alloys as well. Believe it or not I was fluxing before Sagacious even started posting on this site. The problem was that I was doing it all wrong, until he taught me how to flux properly. I used to have a fan in the garage with the door open to get the smoke out, I didn't know you were supposed to light the smoke. Anyway since I pour about 5 hours a day, I just toss in some bees wax pellets in my pot hour by the hour, and everything pours beautiful. If you use a Hot Pot, it works even better there, because I use that to pour my spinnerbaits, and you pour from the top where all the crud eventually goes. Skim flux, skim flux etc. perfect pours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
