GOONSDAD Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 As though we don't have enough politics in Illinois/ "State of Chicago", just introduced to the Senate last week, was a ban on lead sinkers and jigs. Call your senators and express your displeasure, there are more important things to worry about than minute chance a bird digs in the mud and finds a split shot and swallows it. In the bill it does address lure making. Section 2 line 3 para. "e" . For more info you can google: illinois general assembly senate bill sb1269:boo: Does anyone know what the comperable material is that can be used in place of lead? Time to go to the fishing show and... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Thats to bad. But I think its just a sign of what is going to come everywhere. First a ban on lead shotgun shot. Next comes the tackle. Its just a matter of time before its everywhere. You can try using tin and some other alloys. If you do a search in the wire baits sections there are several threads on this. Nothing is as cheap or as easy to work with is the impression I get though. Edited February 20, 2009 by MTfishingrods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickman Baits Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 WOW !! this not acceptable we need to raise h*ll with our reps. & try to stop this in it's tracks instead of rolling over without a fight !! Don't ya'll feel our freedoms slipping away bit by bit?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickman Baits Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 GOONSDAD Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Rockford Il. Posts: 18 Gallery: 0 Ban on lead sinkers and jigs in Illinois As though we don't have enough politics in Illinois/ "State of Chicago", just introduced to the Senate last week, was a ban on lead sinkers and jigs. Call your senators and express your displeasure, there are more important things to worry about than minute chance a bird digs in the mud and finds a split shot and swallows it. In the bill it does address lure making. Section 2 line 3 para. "e" . For more info you can google: illinois general assembly senate bill sb1269:boo: Does anyone know what the comperable material is that can be used in place of lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickman Baits Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Does anybody think this new bill can ban the use of crankbaits containing lead ?? No doubt it will gut most of one's tackle box, I think it will also remove our balsa baits too. illinois general assembly senate bill sb1269:boo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philB Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 We've had a lead ban for probably the past 10 years or so here in the UK. You'll survive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I just done some googling and read that lead is No2 on the USA toxisity list. So you better get used to the idea that it WILL eventually get a total ban, as in UK. I read up on the common metal elements that we probably have access to. Lead, nickel and zinc are toxic. Even if not banned, what is the point. Copper melting point is beyond our reach, at 1084C. Tungsten powder, mixed with a polymer binder (I guess resin would do the job) Would give a density comparable to lead. The down side to this would be the extra labor involved. Not sure of the cost or vailability (lots of adds). Tin. pours well (tin soldiers). Density 7.28gm/cm3 (lead is 11.34gm/cm3), so will take up more space, a problem for balsa builders. Low toxisity, low melting point at 232C, compared to lead at 327C. But the price was approximately 9 times that of lead. But to put this into perspective, 1/2 oz would be $0.20 approx. I have not looked into alloys. At what point does lead in an alloy become safe, if ever? Does the bill cover this point? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucker2 Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 What do you guys in the U.k. use for jig heads? Tungsten? I m just curious. (I'm talking store bought not hand poured) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagio Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 Well there is good news and bad news---I'll give you the good 1st! Good There is a substitute available. The bad- It is going to weigh about 2/3rds the amout of lead and will cost about 6x as much depending on your lead price point. It is an alloy that is comprised of Tin, antimony and copper. Melting point is around 500F and it is much safer. Bismuth which is another sub but is extremely brittle and has a melting point of around 250F. Good luck painting/curing your lures... ( I cant believe I am saying this ) Lets face it, Lead is toxic, can have an impact on our health (some more than others) and does harm enviornment. I've probably lost 10+ lbs of lead weights jigs etc over the years.... We love lure making cause we love fishing right? Toxic water, who will go fishing? :yawn:I really don't agree 100% with what I am writing, but my G/F insisted I put this in here. Though I hate admitting she is right---she makes sense. At least I still have my remote control. I may not start right away, but the sooner we switch, some by force others by choice... the more subs they will manufacture and hopefully the price will come down... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) I've been substituting tin & bismuth for lead since '03. "Stagio" & "Vodkaman" presented a good account of lead free metals, but there is a typo in that bismuth melts at 520* F. Current small lot prices per lb are: tin=$10, bismuth=$15, pewter(tin/antimony/copper alloy)=$11. My personal preference is for bismuth/tin alloys I make from the pure metals. Altho the above metals make heavy castings expensive, there are now reasonably priced iron based sinkers available. Lead is a sneaky metal. Tho casting a lot less lead lately and always being cautious about venting fumes, that stuff is still stuck in my body in the danger zone according to my latest blood test. Edited February 25, 2009 by hawnjigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuskyGary Posted February 25, 2009 Report Share Posted February 25, 2009 How will they enforce the law if it passes? Are gamewardens going to go through your tacklebox? What if you have lead stored away for your personal use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WiTackleGuy Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 ...more important things to worry about than minute chance a bird digs in the mud and finds a split shot and swallows it.... A-men. Wisconsin DNR (don't get me started on them) has started beating the drum to voluntarily switch from lead to more ecco-friendly materials. Probably only a matter of time before they want to make it mandatory. In their propaganda they use the example of a Loon dying from lead poisoning from ingesting a tiny split shot. They may have a point there. It's possible to perhaps swap to a less hazardous material where it is not such an integral part of the presentation (IE split shot and down-rigger weights for example). But to hold the same standard for a jig is a bunch of B.S. For one thing it is an integral part of the presentation. Fish see size shape and drop speed. Not so much a big deal when the weight is up the line from the hook. But when it is used in conjunction with the hook as "the presentation" it matters greatly. Second the jig is normally painted. How long, how many Eons, do you think it would take for ordinary lake water to break down the paint and make lead contamination an issue? It takes some mean solvents to even touch the paint normally used on lead tackle. Water doesn't stand a chance. Then there is the matter of the hook. Seems to me, that would be a more pressing issue in terms of health and safety to whatever animal ingested it, versus the lead that just happened to be on the hook. Anyone that can show me a Loon that has died from lead poisoning (and not from injuries caused by the hook) after ingesting a jig and can prove it has got a steak dinner coming from me. And I wonder how this would ever be enforced? Are wardens going to weigh my tackle at the dock and confiscate it if its to heavy? Sure they will ban the sale of lead tackle. But what is to stop folks like us from pouring it ourselves and using it? Who is going to know and how can they ever know? But I fear the slippery slope of all of this. So while I may feel it is possible to manufacture some terminal tackle with alternative materials: It would only be a matter of time until their sights would be set on the remainder of lead in use. While not an Illinois resident myself: (you dang flat-landers ) You had better put up one heck of a fight 'cause we in Wisconsin will need the momentum to keep it from happening here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagio Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just in case anyone was wondering I did my reasearch and made a few phone calls. I got most of my information from a man at www.hallmarkmetals.net. They had the alloy of tin/antimony/coper for about 6 bucks a lb + shipping and said he didn't charge extra for smaller orders. The mans name was Steve---good name, and the alloy "number" was 928. SUPER nice guy and very informative. He understands the problem and based upon what you are willing to spend, he will find a reasonable solution for you. I am not "promoting" them but just giving a reference so you guys don't think I am full of piss and wind. I some of my melting temps may be off. Was getting quite a lot of info. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Wow, $6 / lb. pewter is a super low price. (Used to be) best priced RotoMetals is still $11-12 / lb. Pewter Alloys for casting from Rotometals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIUBASSER Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Being from Illinois this really gets under my skin. The idea that the small amount of lead making its ways into the waterways from recreational fishing is somehow dangerous is ridiculous. We have way better things to worry about right now than this. Illinois is the worst for having crooked politicians, i.e. one Mr Blagojevich, our economy is shot, all of our industry is shutting down and they are worried about our fishing lures. From what i read if you are caught using lead to "take fish" you can loose your fishing privileges for 6 months. With as bad as the economy is how do they expect us to just throw away $100s of dollars worth of lures. Are they going bring saws along on the patrole boats to cut my jigs in half with to see if they are lead or not. And think about tourism for the state. How many people come to fish illinois. I know that Lake of Egypt, Rend, Kincade, Cofeen and other lakes down here in the south part of the state draw tons of people from other states. They will stop coming and buying illinois licences if they cant use the stuff they already have. Lead is not the worst thing in Illinois water to begin with. We have tons of lakes on the mercury advisery. Now its even worse "The Illinois Fish Contaminant Monitoring Program (IFCMP)*has issued a statewide advisory for predator species in Illinois waters." So whats next are we just going to ban using combustion engins on Illinois Lakes? This state just keeps putting more burden on its people and im about done with it. If this law passes it will be just one more reason for me to pack up and head south. Just my Richard BTW just baught my first jig mold and pot about 2 weeks ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haulinbass227 Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Just think how many fishermen there are in your state and how many lead sinkers and jig heads each of them loose each year. Now add up all the years each person fishes. How many tons of this toxic metal is there getting introduced into our waterways? Several years ago N.Y. banned the lead sinkers and i for one am glad the Environmental Agency is looking out for the health of my children and grandchildren and the fish i enjoy catching so much. I can't beleive for the couple extra cents it takes to use a different material that is safe to the enviroment and living things is being scrutinized like this. Would one of you be willing to eat a tiny sinker or feed it to one of your children. NOT ME. As though we don't have enough politics in Illinois/ "State of Chicago", just introduced to the Senate last week, was a ban on lead sinkers and jigs. Call your senators and express your displeasure, there are more important things to worry about than minute chance a bird digs in the mud and finds a split shot and swallows it. In the bill it does address lure making. Section 2 line 3 para. "e" . For more info you can google: illinois general assembly senate bill sb1269:boo:Does anyone know what the comperable material is that can be used in place of lead? Time to go to the fishing show and... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatman Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Haulin "Several years ago N.Y. banned the lead sinkers" Well truthfully they did and didn't, You can still use lead sinkers 1/2 oz and above, and you can still use lead jigs, some of the officers will give you a hard time about the size of them but just get the long shanked jig hooks and you're safe. the same law is on the books here in Vermont. I'm originally from 20 miles outside of Buffalo, and I've been on the Lead Ban from when it first came out, still have a copy of the original study and lots more than that. Several of the studies where loons had lead poisoning has been proven that lead sinkers were forced down the gullets of dead birds who had drowned from gill nets. I've been pouring since I was 13 and I have my lead level tested all the time and it's ZERO!!! and when I think of all the split shot I used to bite to get it on the line. Lead is ONLY dangerous when is oxidized or melted from the fumes, the white powder on lead blocks if ingested would be a source. Now I still pour jigs, I've switched to the tin split shot and I'm getting material to pour my under 1/2 oz sinkers. The last time I checked for a mix of 70 bismuth/ 30 tin at hallmark metals the price was almost $23 lb because it was a special mix. But that mix is a little heavier. The 60/40 was another option. If you go with the pewter and you harm a LEE Production Pot and it was damaged because of material you're out the money you paid for it. They say not to use zinc, copper, silver, gold, aluminum, pewter or brass. It can damage the liner inside the melter. I'll still pour lead while I can but someone out their needs to come up with a material that weighs the same as lead and costs the same. Just a note: In the original study if you read it more birds died from disease and gill nets than lead poisoning. And the years listed were from 1987-2001 - now 43 birds over a 14 year period works out to 3 birds a year. They gripe about our lead sinkers and jigs!!! Well what about when a population of loons and cormorants devestates a fishery??? Where are all the bird lovers and conservationists when their birds kill a body of water, plus it's the tax's we as fisherman pay on tackle and licenses and gas for boats that helped get stocking done and improvement made at theses waters where the problems exist. Fatman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 I agree that lead should be banned in sinkers, but not in other lures that incase the metal. However, I also agree that Illinois has bigger things to worry about at the moment. I recently graduated from Purdue University in fisheries aquatic sciences. During the winter months, I pair up with other bass club guys and hit up lake newton, IL (power plant lake). On my last visit, I recieved a written warning for not having battery terminal covers! Thats right, the rubber things that cover up your battery posts. The CO (which is totally NOT the same as a dnr fish biologist) thought he was being nice by not giving the "Indiana Boy" a $150 ticket! He even made me test my fire extinguisher to prove it worked! To make a long story short, :bull:holes like this are reducing fishing license sales and participation (which is a huge problem). The guys next to us recieved a ticket and said that they were never coming back... one less fishing license sold in the future, less money for fisheries biologist. To sum it all up, I'm out of a job do to reductions in fishing license sales (which is also why license prices are on the rise). So next time anyone feels like bi:censored:'in about the DNR, ask yourself why your fishery is going to hell. If you have half the money necessary to do a propper management project (in any job!), you're gonna get a half :bull:job in return. So please keep that in mind before you feel like putting down the people that strive to make your fishing experience better. As for lead being banned, I feel that there are worse chemicals (heavy metals, pcbs, other organochlorides) to worry about, which are more acute in their side affects. However, lead has proven to cause several chronic issues environmentally. Just because 43 birds have been found dead from lead doesn't mean there weren't more. Lead causes several other neurological and reproductive damages. Quite honestly, the odds of someone finding a loon dead with a split shot down its throat is far less than that bird dieing of predation (due to it being more susceptible from being poisoned). So finding 43 dead birds is a huge issue, especially since birds are relatively short lived! People that eat birds and fish would bioaccumulate lead (and whatever else is in them) for years until the concentration is high enough to cause health issues (this is why fish don't typically die from mercury contamination). As a result, you get more cases of cancer and blood diseases. Does anyone know what Hevi-Shot (for duck hunting) is made from? They claim that it is heavier than lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Lead free casting is my personal choice & I can't decide for anyone else but I'd like to address some concerns: 1. Fear of the unknown: bismuth & tin metals are easily available by mail order and are very user friendly. Pretty much anything that can be cast in lead is do-it-able with either metal or their alloys. 2. Lead free lighter than lead: yes, bismuth weight 85% & tin 63% of lead, but in my experience can hardly tell the difference especially in a high bismuth alloy. Light weight tin is actually an advantage for slowing fall or running shallower. Its possible to design alloys for different applications of the same lure. 2. Expense: I paid per lb. $8 tin & $15 bismuth on my last order. The (alloy) metal costs per jig head thus are for example 1/4 size $.18 & 1/8 size $.10 each. I've never tried pewter but "Stagio" says his 1/2 oz. cost would be $.20. Yes, this is more than lead but compare to $6 for a basic Rapala. 3. Toxicity hazard: water contamination & wildlife mortality studies are controversial and arguable, but I will say that my in body high lead level probably resulted from contacting lead fishing tackle and making same. "Fatman", you must have better genes than I do! Also, if dogs can eat a penny(fatal!) I would think a stray split shot would far easier to get inside a pet, fish, or (hopefully not!) a kid. Huge fringe benefits for me casting lead free is being able to pour at half the temperature of lead and not worrying about fumes & dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tapout Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hi all, this is my first post on TU. I have been casting non toxic jigs for a while now and found that Zinc actually works well. I started with coils of Tin plummers solder but the prices went up to high. Then I found that Zinc is less than 2$ a pound and only slightly lighter than Tin. The melting point is higher but still melts in my hot pot and fills the molds well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 "Tapout", my research indicated zinc, while perhaps a less toxic alternative to lead, was not the bet choice. What are the Symptoms of Zinc Poisoning? There also might be an archived link pointing to research information concerning the degradation and toxicity of zinc in water particularly with an acidic PH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hawnjigs, I was not thrilled by what I read either, regarding zinc. This is why I quickly eliminated it from my list in post No7. I also read that it also negatively affected the water food chain. Their is no doubt that it is far safer than lead, but it is still not the ideal alternative. I guess the search is still on, with tin being so expensive, but it is my choice so far. Tapout, no one is going to hound you for using zinc, just take precautions yourself when handling it. Be aware of the symptoms, vomitting, stomach problems, metallic taste in your mouth. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 ...but I will say that my in body high lead level probably resulted from contacting lead fishing tackle and making same. ... Hawnjigs, Were you aware of your high lead levels before the checkup at the doctor, or did it come as a surprise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Well if you didn't know this, remember that you heard it here first: All metals are toxic at some level, or in some form. The old adage that the dosage makes the poison is quite true. But it's easier to just say, "Lead is evil" and think no further. I've been asked to weigh-in on this discussion, so I'll shine what little light I can. Lost lead fishing tackle poses a fairly low risk to wildlife. The real threat comes from lead shot. Migratory waterfowl pick up tiny pebbles from river/lakeside gravel and swallow them into their crop to help grind up low-nutrition foodstuffs. Lead oxidizes to form a white coating on stray lead shot, and that helps birds see it and pick it up out of the sand and gravel. Once in the crop, the shot is ground with the other gravel and food and the lead oxide is ground into dust, mixed with acid in the bird's stomach, and forms lead acetate which is extremely toxic. The eventual result is a poisoned bird. Copper shot will also poison a bird. And a child eating leaded-paint chips will suffer the same. Remember, lead shot is fired at waterfowl right where waterfowl congregate and feed, and a single shotshell spreads hundreds of small bite-size lead pellets exactly where it can pose the most risk of bird ingestion. But even a single swan poisoned by a split-shot generates a whole lot of TV-time and bad publicity. Because of this fact, legislators have painted all lead-containing products with the same brush, and banned lead in many areas. A small child can also be poisoned very seriously or even killed by eating too many supplemental iron tablets, and one does not generally consider iron to be toxic... but it certainly can be. One can state with fair confidence that the hazard posed to hobby lead casters is likewise from ingestion. In this case it's the dust that results from handling/melting/pouring lead. Fumes present no real hazard, and one who is more concerned with lead vapor inhalation from hobby lead pouring is likely to ignore the much more dangerous vector of ingestion. Lead "fumes" pose a threat almsot exclusively to the lead smelting and battery lead recycling industries. In those situations, lead is heated to temps between 1800 and 2200*F, and lead vapor protection is required. Lead begins to vaporize at around 1100*F. Hobbyist lead melting equipment never reaches these temps. At that temp the lead is red-hot and glowing, and one can see a slight whitish vapor that emanates from the glowing lead. This situation does not confront the hobbyist or small manufacturer. Even modest ventilation is enough to eliminate any possibility of lead vapor toxicity. Note: Smoke from refining scrap lead is petroleum, road grime, and who-knows-what-else smoke. Smoke is bad to breathe. Don't breathe it. Do you eat while or right after pouring lead? Do you not change your clothes after pouring and before eating? If you do, you risk increasing your lead intake. If you wash after pouring and keep your area clean, the boogeyman of lead poisoning will stay comfortably under the bed. Soap and water works fine, but there are detergent products available to clean up lead dust. Lead sinkers in the environment-- contrary to popular opinion-- pose virtually no risk to wildlife or water quality. Exposed lead is soon covered with a layer of lead oxides and calcium oxide. Lead oxide is stable, is not water-soluble, and does not pollute groundwater. Unless you drop it on your head or eat it, it'll sit quietly in the mud forever and pose no risk. Zinc toxicity is of even lesser concern. Zinc vapors do not present a problem unless one is smelting and alloying brass. Those temps are not practical or really even possible for the hobby lure caster, and the cost of copper presents an economic barrier anyway. Zinc is an essential mineral in the body (unlike lead), and is metabolized in a water soluble form. What isn't metabolized is eliminated fairly quickly, and toxicity requires ingestion of extremely large amounts of zinc over a short time. In the environment (anywhere outdoors actually) exposed zinc oxides rapidly to ZnO, which is not water soluble and is regarded by the US FDA as a safe compound. Use of zinc for fishing lures is safe and quite responsible. Zinc does, however, present a higher burn risk than lead. As one who has set more than one crucible of zinc on fire I can assure you that you know when your zinc is giving off vapors. Tin has virtually no down-side, especially for smaller lures, other than cost. Density is lacking as compared with lead, but addition of bismuth helps, as has been noted previously. Now, even tin can be toxic, and some SuperFund sites are dealing with severely toxic tin pollution-- but that sort of pollution is industrial and isn't anything a tin caster would ever encounter. Tungsten is very expensive, very hard to work with, and thus very impractical. Brass alloys are likewise impractical for the hobby caster, require steel molds, pose metal vapor risks and also a severe burn risk. Not practical. What's left? Copper... expensive and toxic. Cadmium is absolutely wonderful for casting... but poses serious vapor and ingestion hazards. Iron? Nope, not practical. There aren't many cheap, commonly available metals left for consideration. Aluminum poses little toxic hazard and is cheap, but it's too light and too finicky to gravity pour into small molds. The answer is obvious: Be careful and responsible with whatever metal you use. It is easily possible to use lead safely and responsibly-- if you understand the risks and take precautions to avoid them. If you use tin or zinc, more power to ya. Hope this helps a little. Good luck and be safe! Edited March 16, 2009 by sagacious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Thanks Sagacious for your contribution. It is very easy to become an alarmist, as I did, after googling. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
