Frank Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Wondering if there was any comments on putting a bill on a floating swim bait? I am working on my blue gill patern and want it to make a larger wake. Tried to search it but came up with nothing. Having not ever done this ,things like angle, lip size and thickness would be very helpfull. Just finished up my first swim baits 2 weeks ago will try to post photos asap. Thanks to all on this board you have helped me more than you will ever know. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Not 100% sure on this, but I think you will lose the 'walk the dog' action and replace it with a straight wiggle, if you add a lip. I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. To keep the lure on the surface, the lip angle needs to be around vertical. Not much we can say about lip size, some experimenting will be required here. Someone may be able to reccommend a lip shape for you, but again, experiment. I only make 3" to 4" cranks and use 2mm thick lips, but I am going to change to 1mm thickness. Easier to cut and less weight in the nose, should give a crisper action. Check out the gallery to see what others are doing, as a guide to get you started. You will soon develope a 'feel' for lip design, provided you do the experimentation. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Frank, Dave is dead on. Let me try to explain....Again this is just my take on the whole deal. Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. Let's start with these three principles of flight fundamentals. (aero or hydro-makes no difference) Pitch - Rotation of nose up or down. Called the Y Axis Roll - Rotation of the body. Called the X Axis Yaw - Side to side pivoting. Called the Z Axis Good illistration of these fundamentals are at Flight dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A walk the dog bait has its pivot point at the tail due to drag (weight). The head is free to swing left to right (yaw) because the resistance is in the rear. Pitch is tail down in varying degrees. Little if any roll. A wake bait (with a lip) has the pivot point near the head (yaw and roll) and uses the tail to generate the wake. Pitch is at a minimum. Generally lips are used to force baits to dive but in a wake bait, the lip's function is angled down for action, not depth. A swim bait also pivots at the head followed by its body segments. Lips help eggagerate the action. Again the lip has an extreme downward angle to create action, not depth. Here's my take on lips. Lips are forms of resistance that come in an assortment of sizes and styles. That resistance can be used for depth, action or both. There's a trade off here. The deeper the bait, the less the action. The shallower the bait, the greater the action. There's only so much resistance (energy) per bait based on lip size and angle. There's a relation to mass and lip size that has to be maintained (small baits on giant lips do not work well). Here's my take for guys who are just starting out. Copy the angle and size of lips of other manufacturers. Their designers spent lots of time figuring it all out and you can capitolize on that by duplicating their efforts. Transfer that information onto your bait then begin experimenting. It at least gives you a starting reference point. Man, am I full of hot air or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Frank, Dave is dead on. Let me try to explain....Again this is just my take on the whole deal. Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong. Let's start with these three principles of flight fundamentals. (aero or hydro-makes no difference) Pitch - Rotation of nose up or down. Called the Y Axis Roll - Rotation of the body. Called the X Axis Yaw - Side to side pivoting. Called the Z Axis Good illistration of these fundamentals are at Flight dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia A walk the dog bait has its pivot point at the tail due to drag (weight). The head is free to swing left to right (yaw) because the resistance is in the rear. Pitch is tail down in varying degrees. Little if any roll. A wake bait (with a lip) has the pivot point near the head (yaw and roll) and uses the tail to generate the wake. Pitch is at a minimum. Generally lips are used to force baits to dive but in a wake bait, the lip's function is angled down for action, not depth. A swim bait also pivots at the head followed by its body segments. Lips help eggagerate the action. Again the lip has an extreme downward angle to create action, not depth. Here's my take on lips. Lips are forms of resistance that come in an assortment of sizes and styles. That resistance can be used for depth, action or both. There's a trade off here. The deeper the bait, the less the action. The shallower the bait, the greater the action. There's only so much resistance (energy) per bait based on lip size and angle. There's a relation to mass and lip size that has to be maintained (small baits on giant lips do not work well). Here's my take for guys who are just starting out. Copy the angle and size of lips of other manufacturers. Their designers spent lots of time figuring it all out and you can capitolize on that by duplicating their efforts. Transfer that information onto your bait then begin experimenting. It at least gives you a starting reference point. Man, am I full of hot air or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomah21 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Not sure but you may want to check out Fishing Lures Swimbaits Anglers Trophy Bass Handmade Mattlures Swim Baits He has posted videos of his diff bluegill baits and it shows the diff action between his lipped bluegill vs just the floater. Also some great images to get an idea of position, angle and size of the lip he is using in his particular baits. Matts baits are absolutely amazing so def a great person to get some inspiration from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Boomah21, great link and exactly what I'm trying to get across. Dive lips are not the only method of making a bait swim. The forehead can also be utilized to get that seductive action. Look at the current wave of lipless crankbaits with the concave head. The resistance is at the head and the line tie point ensures the head will pitch down. Try putting the line tie on the nose of a lipless crank and tell me what happens. The Wiggle Wart utilizes a wide dive lip, wide head and wide back to get that depth and action. That bait says it all just looking at it! Again this is my opinion and a better explanation would be appreciated. I call it unloading or dumping. As a bait is pulled through the water, water pressure builds on the lip or head. At the threshold, that pressure has to go somewhere so it dumps off to one side, then builds again and dumps off the other side. Now your bait looks like it's swimming. Talk about swimming-soft plastic swim baits have the resistance in the tail and that look is so realistic to you, me and the bass. Overhead videos of fish swimming displays their head does not turn violently side to side like in a crankbait. The head is steady and body and tail are doing all the swimming. That foot built into the rear tail allows the head to tract straight and tail kick (unloading) looks like the real deal. Now if someone could find a way to make them appear to be hunting, that would be one hot bait. Wait a minute, what was I suppose to be doing today????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) What they all said Take a look at a Strike King King Shad and you'll see the lip is small relative to the size of the bait and is sharply angled down at about 80-85 degrees from horizontal. Any lip shape will make it swim, including a square, round, or a bib shape like on the King Shad. The size of your bait and how the segments are built will determine the best lip size, so it may take some experimentation. I'd make the lip a bit larger than I expect will be "perfect" and whittle it down to the right size after on-the-water tests. There are lots of wakebaits out there nowadays. Like Birdman says, look at some to get an idea of where to start. Edited February 21, 2009 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 I'd make the lip a bit larger than I expect will be "perfect" and whittle it down to the right size after on-the-water tests What Bob said. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Thank You everybody I have a good idea of where to start. Will let you all know how it worked out. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I wrote something yesterday that has been bothering me and I wish to make my own correction. I wrote "aero or hydro, makes no difference". With regards to the X, Y, and Z axis, it's true and other than their inherent difference in density, it's true. But when you remove velocity (movement/speed) from the equation, they are polar opposites. If a airplane looses velocity, it falls down from the sky but when a crankbait (basic balsa body) looses it's forward movement, it falls up! Airplanes need speed to climb and crankbaits need speed to dive. Another good illistration are the dive planes on a submarine-they're useless without speed. Here's another example: if you stand on a ladder and pour out a bucket of water, gravity takes over and it falls to earth but if you release a bucket of air 10 feet below the surface, it falls up. Now I'm sure if I cleared things up or muddied the waters more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I'd say you muddied the water a tad. I was quite happy with your original statement, aero or hydro, makes no difference They are just different densities, but the same basic theories apply. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
