carolinamike Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 This ought to be interesting to some of you guys out there. Since July, we have been back and forth with Zoom's attorney over our jig trailer. My trailers were hand carved from POP and were my design. Yes it did look similar to Zoom but how different can you make a jig trailer? At first it started over our large trailer. Zoom and Zoom's lawyer admitted that they have never held my trailer in their hand all they did was see my trailer on my website. When I took my trailer to my lawyer (who is not a patent attorney) he said he felt sure that there was considerable, visible, marketable differences in the baits and he said that he felt like we would be okay. He faxed Zoom's attorney we would not cease and desist from making the trailer. Well, we are in the process of changing our website I decided I would just go ahead and take the trailer off just to make everybody happy. Now here it is February and now they're saying that the little trailer is an infringement on their patent. After looking at several websites I've noticed that a lot of Zoom's chunks (or look alikes) are being sold, most of them have a v cut out in the tail. I was looking at LC today and noticed that their 5x858 mold is an exact copy. I'm hoping Kim or somebody at PoorBoy's can chime in on this one and help a brother out. I have talked with a patent attorney and he said Zoom's patent leans more toward the function of the bait rather than the visual design. What are you guys that aren't being bothered by this fellow doing to keep them off of your back? Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Have you got a patent number from them to see what part of it you are copyin'g? years ago when I first started I made the craw chunk for a customer per his drawings, 2 years later zoom copied it and put it on there new product list, He called me pretty pissed off saying that I sold it to zoom, then after some research we found that one of the people who bought some baits from him, copied it and sold the design to zoom. they gave him all kinds of crap for a few years saying he was infringing on there patent. I don't know what happened to the guy I think he quit pouring, he used to be on TU and tacklemaking alot. do you have the name similar to there name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Delw, We did call it a chunk, that is one thing that we thought about too. Zoom's lawyer was kind enough:nuhuh: to send us a copy of the patent. Through all this I have learned that there are two types of patents. A standard design patent and a patent that leans more toward the function of the product. It's funny, I sold both chunks for eight years without a word. Now all of a sudden, I'm a target and they specifically targeted my large chunk which I had produced some of with the new mold before I received their letter. The small chunk, I've never produced, I've never even had the mold on the machine, and the bait looks nothing like Zoom's small chunk. With so many other chunks and trailers out there that look a whole lot more like Zoom's and function a whole lot more like Zoom's than mine does, I'm still not sure particularly why they're wanting to pick on me. If I'd done massive amounts of sales and my product was out there everywhere, I could understand it but we're talking about something that I have never sold one of from the new mold. I was targeted for a picture on a website which I removed. They still want me to send them a letter stating that I will not produce this bait. I'm to the point where I have not produced the bait, have not sold the bait and at their request, I'm not advertising the bait, so I guess it's up to them to prove patent infringement now, which I have never done. Each time I received a letter, I complied, which generated another letter. I'd like to know what Mr. McConnell is charging Ed & Eddie at Zoom. The way I look at it, it's just expensive harrassment. I wish there were more companies that could work together in the fishing industry than constantly stabbing each other in the back. And if I was to produce the chunk and sell it from LC's mold, would I be infringing? All this stuff is worded where ordinary people can't understand it on purpose. I'll be glad to give you the patent # Delw and you can look it up on the US Patent website if you would like to look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Delw, We did call it a chunk, that is one thing that we thought about too. Zoom's lawyer was kind enough:nuhuh: to send us a copy of the patent. Through all this I have learned that there are two types of patents. A standard design patent and a patent that leans more toward the function of the product. It's funny, I sold both chunks for eight years without a word. Now all of a sudden, I'm a target and they specifically targeted my large chunk which I had produced some of with the new mold before I received their letter. The small chunk, I've never produced, I've never even had the mold on the machine, and the bait looks nothing like Zoom's small chunk. With so many other chunks and trailers out there that look a whole lot more like Zoom's and function a whole lot more like Zoom's than mine does, I'm still not sure particularly why they're wanting to pick on me. If I'd done massive amounts of sales and my product was out there everywhere, I could understand it but we're talking about something that I have never sold one of from the new mold. I was targeted for a picture on a website which I removed. They still want me to send them a letter stating that I will not produce this bait. I'm to the point where I have not produced the bait, have not sold the bait and at their request, I'm not advertising the bait, so I guess it's up to them to prove patent infringement now, which I have never done. Each time I received a letter, I complied, which generated another letter. I'd like to know what Mr. McConnell is charging Ed & Eddie at Zoom. The way I look at it, it's just expensive harrassment. I wish there were more companies that could work together in the fishing industry than constantly stabbing each other in the back. And if I was to produce the chunk and sell it from LC's mold, would I be infringing? All this stuff is worded where ordinary people can't understand it on purpose. I'll be glad to give you the patent # Delw and you can look it up on the US Patent website if you would like to look at it. send me the number/link I would like to see it. send it to del-mart@cox.net , I will check it once I get my Pc set-up in the new shop, our internet connection is actually working today 14 hours now LOL. I am using The Wardens laptop as mine isn't set up online yet. zoom does go after people they have the money to. Also remember its how the patent is interpeted, you might interpet it different from zoom because you are each selling one and a court might interpet it entirely different. more than likely the reason they are going after you is #1 because you sell baits #2 because you have an injection machine and can mass produce them thats compitition compared to a hand pourer they have no idea that you are hand pouring them. #3 they believe that your bait is a copy infringement. also remember this, just because other companies have/sell them never assume its ok to do. If the lawyer was kind enough to send you the patent info they are not blowing smoke on there interpitation of the patent. Most companies blow smoke up peoples &%$ saying this and that but can never prove a patent or copy right. Zoom is the only one I know that will send a petent if and only if they believe you have infringed on there patent. Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassnRandy Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I have that same trailer mold from L.C. Kim assures me that there is plenty of difference and that the hand poured part alone gives you at least 10% of the difference. personally I don't see how that would make a difference as Zoom is squacking about the design. Have your lawyer ask them if they are so upset why they are not going after Venom's Bully frog or Moon's flash worm which is an L.C. mold of the speed worm. Seems like select and choose dicrimination to me. Things might get worse now as the economy slides. Companies will be very defensive over their share of the market. The companies that survive that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted February 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 BassnRandy, Your making the same mistake that I made. The patent is more towards the function of the bait rather than the looks. Although the designs are very well pointed out, each little area of the bait having its own number that's referenced in the patent. Also just because the bait is hand poured, does not make it patent proof against an injected bait. The process of making the bait is not listed in the patent, therefore whether it's injected or hand poured it does not matter. If it looks like it, functions the same way, then I'm sure it is a patent infringement. The trouble is, all jig trailers function this way. It goes into real detail on independent operation of the legs. Any legs not connected on a jig trailer will function this way. Also, my trailer does not look like theirs. It does look somewhat similar, but if you set them side by side, there is a very large difference. First off, my legs that come off the head of the bait are rounded on top with no ridge. The head of the bait is completely a different shape and thickness. The legs of the bait, when put together, only touch at one point. It's just a completely and totally different design. I'm just wondering what's next, are they going to go from one bait to the next one with me in hopes that I will quit selling altogether? WRONG!!! Chunk or no chunk, I'm here to stay. I'm a firm believer in what comes around goes around. The circle will make it back to Zoom one of these days, you wait and see, and we'll all get a laugh out of it. And Delw, I agree with you, they're not blowing smoke. That's the reason I went ahead and dropped it off the website. But until I find out for sure where I stand legally, and until I actually make the bait, I'm not going to send them a letter. Like I said, I'm not advertising the bait, I'm not selling the bait and I've never produced the bait, so there's no way that I'm guilty of infringement. Remember, I complied when they asked. I just wonder how much more they're going to keep asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitbull Baits Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 From what I have heared is that zoom doesn't own the patent on the brush hogs. I don't know how true that is. They also said the guy that has it duse to work their but quit. I think the oringanal ones that are sold at Barlows. I think D n J plastic makes them for tackle shops that have their own brand of plastics. Rember that is what I have just heared. So please Zoom don't sue me I know your watching to steal are ideas and colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojon Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 I just might apply for a patent for a bent device made of steel and a sharpened point with a connecting device to apply line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purdueru24 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 If I did this right there is a link to the patent at the bottom. If you guys didn't know you can google patents. Go to Google then go to "more," click on patents and search what you want. Artificial bait structure - Google Patents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 (edited) Well...... I started a thread like this a looooong time ago. I hate to say it but I kind of see Zoom's side in this. They pour hours of time and r & d $$$$ into these baits to sell them. We look at their bait, change slight things to the design and usage then start selling them. Maybe years ago a few guys dipping into the pot was tolerable but now I see everybody pouring baits. My designs and colors get copied every day. Of course, I have no patents or lawyers on my side. Zoom does have a right to defend their products, designs and patents. Everbody using the "trick worm" name is infringing on Zoom right now.... And there are a LOT of guys hand pouring doing that!! You also cannot use "slick worm" or something that implies their name as well. (This is Trademark infringement, not patent infringement.) Guess I'll get off my soap box and tell you that I heard from Zoom a long time ago as well. I do see their side. Seems if we want to play in Zoom's world, we need to hire and pay a legal team to reply and defend our products. That all costs a lot of money and adds significantly to the bottom line. I would also say to NOT take advice from anyone but a lawyer on these issues. Anyone can tell you that you are not infringing but most do not know patent law and YOU will end up being the one sued, not the person you get advice from! Please don't take this as taking sides as I am just playing the devil's advocate. Jim Edited March 2, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Jim I have to agree, power to zoom. There is a whole lot of bait out there to be discovered, so why copy. Be original guys, forget about the 10% rule. "customer demands.." not a good excuse. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bountiful Waters Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I think if everyone could just understand that there are alot of fisherman to go around, there would be less trouble. Jim was kind enough to give me permission to use one of his molds in the past made by Bob and I have done well with it. I hope I can return the favor some day. A little communication goes a long way. The unfortunate thing about this topic is is boils down to who has the funds to pursue patents and then protect them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitbull Baits Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 years ago when I first started I made the craw chunk for a customer per his drawings, 2 years later zoom copied it and put it on there new product list, He called me pretty pissed off saying that I sold it to zoom, then after some research we found that one of the people who bought some baits from him, copied it and sold the design to zoom. they gave him all kinds of crap for a few years saying he was infringing on there patent. I don't know what happened to the guy I think he quit pouring, he used to be on TU and tacklemaking alot. do you have the name similar to there name? From what I have learned in this buisness is two things. First just about everything you hear from people is 95% B.S. and 5% truth. The second being. Thoes who B!$#h the most steal the most. I am not saying Zoom doesn't spend a lot of money on the lure design of their own ideas. But how mant times do these bigger company's steal colors and designs that the little guys (us) come up with and say they worked on this for years perfecting it. To me its kind of like the Sweet Beaver or Senko everybody's got one. If Zoom can't make a bait that sell or doesn't like competition. Maybe their losing money and blaming us thats their problem not ours! They can't put a patent on everything. I just don't like the bigger guys smashing the little guy. I could see if it was an out right copy of theirs but as he said its not. It looks like dirty buisness to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Jim & Dave, I couldn't agree with you more. And I also agree with Zoom, the big chunk may have been too close for comfort, so even after paying an attorney to send them a letter, refusing to drop the bait, we decided it wasn't worth the hassle and dropped it anyway. Now they're using the same patent to go after the smaller trailer, which is an original design that I carved out of a POP block. It's similar in design to all jig trailers pretty much, a head and two tails, and if laid beside Zoom's it's nothing like theirs. That's the part I'm not understanding. Remember, I only put a picture of the hand pour version on the website. The new version, which was made from the hand carved mold, has never been produced. I'm currently manufacturing for two other companies and do not have machine time for my own molds. Even after complying and dropping the bait off of my website, they're asking for a letter saying that I will never produce the bait. Guys, never is a long time. I'm learning more about Zoom, from what I understand, they're not doing a lot of their own work these days, and that their equipment is a little outdated. If you think about it, since the arrival of the Paca chunk, Zoom's chunks have dropped in popularity. Maybe when you've been on top for years, paranoia sets in. Who knows, I doubt if I'll ever make it that far. And if that's how it is when you get to the top, I like where I am at just fine. With so much backstabbing in this business, I just wonder what a co-op of 10 or 12 companies working together to share the business would do. If someone calls me for a private label item and I don't produce it, I always give them the name and # of another injector. I am in the process of having my mold checked out so that I'm absolutely sure that I'm not infringing. Little over a year in the injection business and already got the biggest plastic company in the US's attention. Maybe it shouldn't but it makes me feel good. Thanks for all of your opinions, even if I don't always agree with them I do value them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitbull Baits Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Carolinamike maybe you should go ask Wal-Mart to carry your plastics. I see Zoom has got knocked down to three or less slots on the self:lol:. Well thats just around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 No that's alright Pitbull, Walmart wants six months to pay you. That's a whole different story there. Like I said guys, I value your opinions very much, so I've got a picture of them side by side. The pictures are a little distorted, so I'll give you a description of mine. As you can see Zoom's is much larger, much more of an oval shaped head than mine, which is more round than oval and a lot thicker to hold a hook better. Coming off the head, it's actually round with a flat bottom for about 1/4 to 1/2 inch before you get to the actual tail. The tails are more rabbit ear or mule ear shaped. The bait is slick all over and is much smaller all the way around. Now before you criticize, be sure and take time to look at all the trailers similar to this on the market. You'll find mine to be a whole lot more different than others on the market. Like I said, I value your opinions and I can take the criticism, just might not agree, but I still would like to know what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitbull Baits Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) Would this get them off your back. If you were to cut a liitle claw or a triangle shape on the inside of the claw or would that mess the action up. Edited March 3, 2009 by Pitbull Baits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Pitbull, That's the thing, money depletion is a big playing factor in this game. Zoom's attorney actually told me what I needed to do was hire a patent attorney, after complying with them completely. Imagine that. I did do some checking around and just to find out whether or not I am infringing and what I could do not to infringe will only cost me $2000.00 and a 100 mile round trip. And now remember, all of this is based on his professional opinion. That does not mean that it wouldn't go to court. When it comes down to it ultimately, the decision is left up to the judge. Being that Zoom's patent leans more toward the function of the bait (independent operation of the legs being a big thing), it's hard to say what the outcome would be. We're also considering attaching the legs together, such in a way that the beavers are done, therefore you wouldn't have the independent action of the legs, unless the fisherman decided to break them apart. I guess it would be OK to do that, fishermen might have to call Zoom and ask for their permission. I wish there was someone out there that had for sure definite knowledge about something like this. But from what I understand, the judge could interpret it several different ways. Now how do you work around that? Remember guys we live by the Golden Rule, the man with the gold makes the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint308 Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Giv'em heck Mike. Saint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassnfool Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 From the pictures, it seems that Zoom's problem with your trailer would be the rib on the outer edge of the pincers, that is one of the items specific to their patent. You can change the shape all you want, it it has that rib on it they'll come after you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 (edited) If Zoom can't make a bait that sell or doesn't like competition. Maybe their losing money and blaming us thats their problem not ours! They can't put a patent on everything. I just don't like the bigger guys smashing the little guy. I could see if it was an out right copy of theirs but as he said its not. It looks like dirty buisness to me. The other side is this Pit Bull. Say you spend some money (and a lot of time!!!) and develop this new, fantastic bait that nobody has thought of. Your going to put Pit Bull Lures on the map now...right!!?? You name it the Fastball lure. Then I see it and say, nice, I'll change the design just a little and start making those baits. I name it the CurveBall lure. Others all quickly do the same. You developed the bait, tested it, named it and then we just swooped in and did a look a like to make money off of what you did. You make a few bucks but could have cornered the market IF you patented your idea. If you put yourself in Zoom's position, you might understand slightly why they have to at least make attempts at defending the baits they have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting patents on. I am still not taking Zoom's side but they have the patents and we do not. In case folks do not know, patent infringement is an automatic 3 X's award plus all legal costs. Anything you sold would cost you 3 x's what you made back to the company you infringed upon plus all other damages. VERY EXPENSIVE... Advice is still best taken only from a legal expert. Jim PS I definitely want Mike to succeed in his endeavours guys. I have talked with him about producing baits for me. I also have been to the patent attorney and had my wallet lightened. Until you have gone down that path, you really don't know what it is like. Edited March 3, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Prager Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 It sounds like more trouble than it's worth. How much money will it cost to prove you are right? It might end up being more in fees than profit in making the trailer. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 One way around it is that you design a bait that no one can afford to mass-produce like "Buzz" The Mouse. I tinkered with a patent idea for "Buzz" but the more I investigated the more I came to realize that the lawyers are the only winners here. The way of the world is that if you play with the "big boys" you will loose. Their pockets are way deeper than yours. I believe it was said here earlier that the best you can do is to produce the bait and sell as many as you can before it gets copied. There is nothing stopping you from adding "the original" in front of it's name. www.novalures.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 A valuable piece of knowledge that I gleaned from the money I spent was to look at copyrighting your directions on rigging and using your unique bait. Then, the bait may be copied but if any rigging instructions are given that resemble yours, you have a copyright claim against the other company. Much less money to copyright and much less to hold another company/individaul accountable when your copyright is infringed upon. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Guys, I agree with Jim, he's not taking Zoom's side. I know exactly what he's talking about. That's another thing about our company, it's went totally in the opposite direction that we intended. Now I'm priviledged to have the opportunity to produce other companies lures, some of which I'm producing many months before they actually premier on the open market, so secrecy and careful discretion now has to practiced regularly at my shop. So I'm not mad about what's going on, there's just so much he says she says stuff on this end of it as far as what's infringing and what's not, sometimes it just all runs together and you just don't know what to think. For anyone else besides you loving and caring TU members out there, remember I complied immediately with the first letter, the second letter was no problem to comply with because I have never produced the first bait off of that mold, nor do I plan on producing any baits off of either one of the molds until I'm absolutely sure that a legal resolution is made. Again, we are not a copycat company. I sold these trailers for 8 years when doing hand pours, supplied at least 4 different stores, and never heard a word. I did the same as any of you guys would have done, the products I was selling the most of is what I had molds made for. After 8 years, I had no idea there would be a problem. But now our main business does not even concern our personal molds. If I knew then what I know now, I'd have 2 machines instead of 9 molds. But either way, let it be well known, that I am not producing or intend on producing either one of the jig trailers until I can get it straightened out or the patent runs out. I've only got around 13 more years to go. By the way, could I interest anybody in some molds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
