bbduc Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'm wondering if you all would offer up some thoughts on a bait I have on my work bench that I'm having some trouble with? The bait is a 7" long, 4 section, made from red cedar swim bait. I rigged this bait with thru-wire joints and currently I have .7 ounce of weight in the first section and in the second .5 ounce. The second .5oz really isn't needed and doesn't aid or hinder the lack of movement. I was experimenting hoping this may help, no such luck. My problem is that I can't get it to swim with a nice snake-like movement. If I really pull it in quickly I get the movement but when bringing it slowly, only the last section will move. Without the hooks it will snake but only at certain speeds. There's no binding at all, matter of fact I can bend this thing into a "u". I'm puzzled. I could add a lip but that's not what I'm after. Maybe a tail? My end goal is for this bait to ride high, almost top water which is why I chose the cedar. If you wouldn't mind taking a look at the pics and offer any advice I'd appreciate it. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikeman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I'll take a guess on this one , maybe it is too much weight on the second piece , you should try to take from there and put in front. Still the problem may be from the hook placed at the back of the lure that adds to much weight and stops the movement , if you cut from the weight placed on the second piece you may have a chance that the lure starts the S movement from there. Another way to solve this is "think slim" maybe your lure is too fat there was a post some weeks ago about swimbaits , I'll give it a search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 @ bbduc Don't know much about swimbaits , but I guess , the fault isn't the weighting , but the location of the tow eye . I'd also say , that the bowing upward shape of the chin isn't of advantage , either . In my personal theory the oncoming water pressure on retrieve must create a sort of leverage around the tow eye to get the bait to move properly , in your case the chin of the front section might just act like the bow of a ship and cut trough the water , also push the bait upward . I'd advise you to take a piece of wire , bend it similar to a rod ring and tape it to the lure temporary , somewhere quite a bit downward the present eye and give your bait a test swim again . By changing the new tow eye location to different positions you'd pretty soon see some results . I don't say , that changing the line tie position is dead sure to help , but this is , what I would have done ! If it should improve the running of your bait , you'd have to think about how to rig a new eye , in worst case you might have to rebuild the front section entirely . good luck:yay: , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikeman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 interesting things said by Diemai too, I was looking at that tow eye that is way up high on the nose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadawgs Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 the sides of the bait look to flat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Thank you all for the responses. This bait started out as experimental so destroying it in the name of learning is fine. I think my first plan of attack will be a temporary lowered line tie along with adding a taper towards the rear of the bait. I'll do one at a time then test. I'll update this as I go. One other thing I may do is give the head a new profile. I'm going to try to salvage this bait, it probably will end up looking a little different but that may be a good thing. In the end I'm looking for a working prototype for future builds. Updates soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 before you start sanding away, i would strongly advise getting some silly putty and apply it to certain section of the lure. I did this with my first swimbait until I got the desired action. It doesn't take much most times to get the right hydrodynamics to make your bait dance. I would start by apply puddy to the head area. Maybe the top of the head section, or some around the opercular area. If you get any improvement with that, keep adding puddy until you begin to hinder the action. Then, continue to apply puddy (probably to the sides) of each section one at a time. It takes a while, but this is the easiest way to get the right hydrodynamics... unless you can utilize a Vodkaman equation after you see what you need to do, carve up a lure with similar shape to that of the original w/ silly puddy. btw, your through-wire hinge style is amazing! That looks like it took forever! I bet you could haul in a shark w/ that! Good Luck! Live2Fish~Fish2Live Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 if all else fails, try Mark Paulson's reverse concave hinge design. It would be a good test to see if it can bring a bait back from the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Since you might have the putty out. In an effort to replicate a the swimming motion of a fish there is some concern about the head movement. Now you say that yours has limited movement it would be interesting to see what would happen if you leave the head section in its original configuration. Then direct your attention toward the remaining sections. Specifically the leading edge of the trailing sections. Perhaps making them with a slight edge then gradually tapering the remainder of that section to expose more of the following sections edge, which you may choose to enhance or not. My objective is to discover if a more realistic swimming motion can be achieved by developing the most influential vortexes at the leading edge of the section directly behind the head. And with modifications to the edges of all subsequent sections which might allow for a swimming action at a lower retrieve speed. I don't have the opportunity to try this at the moment but I do think it has some merits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Good points everyone, KC's option seems to be worth testing. I have very limited experience with these and out of 3 lures, one is pretty good and one is a failure - Mark and others seem to achieve it with a 'closed ' joint. I have tried the first 2 in the picture and No 2 is having the most success, although not as good as some actions seen here. As K.C says No3 may be the goods, but maybe VodkaMan can tell us , 'Is it the turbulence/vortex in the joint or on the sides that gives a lure the 'S' action?'.pete [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Pete, that is close to what I am speaking of, not quite though. I will see if I can download your pic and alter it to explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Pete, why do you bring me into it, I have not built a swimbait yet! But I have already sent a few PM's out. I agree with Diemai's assessment, the apex of the nose needs lowering, along with the tow eye. I am not a great believer in the hinge joint effect, but like I said, why should my opinion matter. I have my theories, but they are not proven yet. I wish you good luck with your swimbait. Most importantly, report back your trials and tribulations. Tip, change one thing at a time, or you will not know what worked. You have the right attitude for prototyping, this was clearly obvious when you posted pics of an unpainted body. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 This approach might only need to be done at the first section behind the joint or not, might enhance the action as a whole or might not, specifically at low speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Tonight I'll start making some mods in the interim I opened photoshop up and made a couple tweaks to the shape of the head section. Another reason for this build was the recent thread on swimbaits. Great thread with plenty of info, obviously I didn't read it thorough enough. Tonight I'll raid the kids silly putty and start testing. Post my findings as I progress. Once again, thank you for all the suggestions. Once I get this critter to swim right I'll have to come up with special paint job for the collaborative effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Hey Bob, I certainly am no expert on swimbaits, as I am trying to get my first one ready for a test in the water. I just want to say that I certainly do admire your thru wire set up. I know that took a lot of work building and fitting it inside the lure. Good job. Good luck with your modifications. Keep posting your results. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luretrekker Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Bob, first I like your through-wire construction! I'm afriend of tough wired baits. In my opinion your problem is concerned with the shape of the lure...your swimbait tail section makes a bow. This causes lacking area in the ventral "belly" section of the bait- This area is important to get the lure running...maybe you should try adding putty. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 30acre Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 i would bet that if you put a lip on it that it would swim great. i had this same problem with some old swimbaits of mine... they were made awesome, just not functional at all. i put a lip on them and they swam perfect. i know you said you didnt want a lip but its actually a pretty easy process and doesnt have to be precise in order for it to swim properly at a slow speed. so this is what i would recommend... let us all know how it works out for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Sorry, but putting a lip on a swimbait is cheating. Do the work and solve the problems. A lip is not necessary. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I forgot to add, for the one that was a real dud, instead of chopping it and adding a lip, I used one of these discs on the line, that certainly made it boogie, and also gives a bit of a 'popper' effect.pete [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Pete I think that the pronounced edge on trailing section would have a similar effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 30acre Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 If Putting A Lip On A Swimbait Is Cheating Then Someone Needs To Tell Matt Servant To Get Off The Roids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illini Nate Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Weighting is your problem, remove some of the weight from the second segment and potentialy from the head. That form should swim without any issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I have some results to share. First I'll go through my process of many unsuccessful attempts to get my first true swim bait to swim. I started by adding a lower line tie to the original bait with no results. Second I started messing with the weight and body shape by adding putty alter the shape and water resistance to try and initiate any glimpse of "s" movement. Again nothing. At this point I'm thinking it's multiple small things. Next I tapered each individual section to the rear of that particular section creating a step-like profile. This did create some movement but not enough to get excited about but a step in the right direction. The overwhelming consensus from the feedback I received was the line tie and shape of the head needed to be changed so I fired up the bandsaw and went to town. I was able to save the line tie and simply bend it down into a lowered slot I cut after reshaping the head. Back to the tub for a quick dip in water. Nothing, no real change. Scratch my head for while, but still not ready to add a lip to the bait I decided to really taper the bait. I laid the bait on the sander and dust was flying. One last trip to the tub as there was not much more I could do without starting over. Hook my now much lighter bait up to my finest ice fishing pole and give it a short two foot cast, the bait hit the water with a new attitude, viola, it swims. The line tie, head reshaping, and tapering was the ticket. I posted a quick video so you guys could see it in action. YouTube - Swim Bait Proving Grounds Here's a quick before and after pic. The after is still pretty rough I've yet to sand it smooth and round over the edges, but it swims. Thanks guys. Your help is always appreciated. Hope you like the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 @ bbduc Thanks a lot for sharing your results , obviously you've been having a hard time with that lure , but you've finally succeeded . I like the moves of your bait pretty much , it really acts like a snake in the water and it seems to me , when you're slowing down the pace to turn it around(a bath tub is not a lake:lol:) , the rear portion even moves a bit more . great work , greetz:yay: , diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 That thing Swims, congrats. Seems you may have solved it yourself, with that taper, I never thought of that. I would have thought that tapering to the nose would have had a negative affect, but aparently not! I'm sure the fish will like it too. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
