Jwags Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 @bbduc, Wow, that thing swims like a- well, a fish! Awesome looking bait. I've been kicking around the idea of a swimbait for awhile and I'm gonna give it a try soon. Thanks for sharing your trials and successes with this bait, I'm sure you have helped many of us to grasp a better understanding of what is needed it get a swimbait to swim. Also, I loved your song choice for the video, it took me back... jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Very nice! Thats awesome action for such little room to perform the bait! Excellent song choice! Saw them in Chicago a couple weeks back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Good deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 That's great! It swims beautifully. I taper my baits, thin at the nose to full thickness at the back of the first section, and then back down to thin at the tail. I just copied what had worked for others. Now that Vodkaman's gotten into my head, I think the tapered head splits the water, creating higher pressure at the thickest point, and the reverse taper creates a low pressure area, like a wing shape, and the vortexes created at the thickest point pull on the tapered rear sections because they are in the low pressure area. Probably, too blunt a nose forces the vortexes too far out away from the body to initiate good swimming action. Can't wait to see the finished bait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Thanks for all the kind words. It's really is gratifying when it all comes together. I did learn a great deal on this build and will start with a fresh bait this weekend. I think the reverse joints will work and plan to give it a try. I did attempt the reverse joint on this test and that's what started to kick the bait into "s" mode. Shortly thereafter that modification was dust on the floor but it was working. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 30acre Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Great job! Love the action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Mark. My thoughts were that a blunt nose and along the back of the first section was required to create the vortices, as the flow could not turn the blunt corner and started turning. But this lure, with the front edge taper kinda' goes against this idea. Well, we are all learning with every post. Thanks bbduc for teaching us all a little more. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Thanks Bob, you may have solved my problems as well - I have been putting a lot of taper on the top and bottom planes and very little on the sides, this may be the solution - great work .pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I've been reading this thread, day by day, watching this story unfold and I think the end results are outstanding. It's made me a believer that 'the Power of TU Compells You!" into problem solving as a group. When the power of the group exceeds the sum of the individuals, that is a very special thing to have happen. I'm getting all misty now...if I can just get rid of this urge to take a hot bath. *****in' song too! Here's a thought for those struggling to make a living at this-tub toys. No hooks, no hardware, no exotic paint schemes (unless you want to). Specialty toy stores would eat them up as will the mothers of tots at tub time. Diversiving in this economy may be necessary until it all blows over. Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 A quick thought I had about vortices after the last post; I think removing the beveled edges from the segments had something to do with the overall success. It allows the edges to catch water which turn starts the loading and unloading process to begin (pressure builds on one side, unloads then builds on the other side until swimming begins). For those interested in learning more about vortices, there is a book entitled "An Album of Fluid Motion" by Van Dyke. Amazon has it. Amazing photographs of what happens to water when it encounters various shapes and objects. I'd upload some scans but copyright laws have earned my respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Birdman I believe that may have been part of the problem for sure but my biggest gains of "s" action came when I tapered the sides beyond the bevels. There was a intermediate stage before I really went crazy sanding off the sides and still had plenty of material to work with where I tried a reverse joint. I carved/dremeled out the joint that catches water and did see action from this move. I took it slow and did a little at a time so when the bevels came off I did see a noticeable change but the fluid movement seemed to be more of a weight to resistance ratio. I did not weigh the bait between alterations although in hindsight that actually would have been nice to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdman Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 I would love to see a top view of the bait, just the back side. I'm curious how the tapers aid in the 's' action. My initial observation was your point of line attachnment. I too thought it was too high on the nose. Many times when I was about to throw a design away, just a simple bending down of the nose wire solved everything. Very subtle but makes all the difference. There are many lessons in this build we can all benefit from. Nicely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 There is plenty of info on karman streets behind an object in water flow. Most of these diagrams are of a static object. Considering that a lure is dynamic you will soon find out that there is much more to it in regards to a lure action. Be prepared to do plenty of reading! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Weighting is your problem, remove some of the weight from the second segment and potentialy from the head. That form should swim without any issue. I agree with Nate, that shape should swim without any problem. Try changing the weight, if that doesn't work, my suspect is the hinge mechanism. Take out the through-wire and try the old standby of one screw eye connected to another and see if that works. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I agree with Nate, that shape should swim without any problem. Try changing the weight, if that doesn't work, my suspect is the hinge mechanism. Take out the through-wire and try the old standby of one screw eye connected to another and see if that works. RM Riverman, I tried messing with the weight but couldn't get it to go. The hinges work great, the line-tie and taper seemed to be the culprits. I did get it to swim. Check the video out: YouTube - Swim Bait Proving Grounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjbass Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Your bait swims great and I respect the time and effort you put in getting it to work, but all the theories of tapering, line tie position and beveled edges do not always apply.....if so these would not swim, and they swim great...check this out, the triple jointed swimbaits, no tapering, beveled edges and line tie right in the middle of the nose. Google Image Result for http://www.danczyk-lures.com/DSC07422_op_800x558.jpg just my observation.... Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Rod, I do agree with your post. I have been keeping a close watch on swimbait posts. It seems that anything from centre and downwards works. Having the tow eye below centre is a safe bet. Ref post No33, I have re-examined the after pic. The back width is wide and square towards the first joint, this is plenty to generate vortices, so now I feel less confused about the whole issue. The apparent success of the taper could be an inertia thing, but the pics that Rod posted were parallel bodies. It could be down to the wood choice. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Finally a plan view, this says a lot, can't get more simple than these, although unusually the 'pivots' are way back?? Thanks Rod. pete Edited March 4, 2009 by hazmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlures Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 If Putting A Lip On A Swimbait Is Cheating Then Someone Needs To Tell Matt Servant To Get Off The Roids! Ha ha I havent taken roids since my early 20's Lol. I put bills on my baits becuase thats EXACTLY how I want them to swim. I also have non billied baits that swim exactly how I want them to. There is no guessing. I used to guess, but after many very controlled experiments and proto types I pretty much know what they will do before I see them swim. I dont get too many suprises. Just takes working out the bugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Some good points coming up in this thread. I think Rod's comments are valid and makes me wonder why I got absolutely zero movement with the exception of the final section on my bait. This thread started as a simple plea on how to save this one swimbait and has evolved into a bigger conversation which is a great thing. I may go back to my original design, I liked that shape much more than what I ended up with and make a couple miner mods that align with Rod's and many others input and see if I can get it to work. In the end we saved the bait and personally I gained loads of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Your bait swims great and I respect the time and effort you put in getting it to work, but all the theories of tapering, line tie position and beveled edges do not always apply.....Rod I agree...........every swimbait I have built has beveled edges and I generally always start with the tow point in the center and nearly all of them work perfectly. It just goes to show that we are still learning here on TU. Beautiful action on your lure by the way, looks great!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pikeman Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) after all the "think slim" idea brought some results along with the head shape and the tow point, very good, love to see a fellow lurebuilder managing to solve the "death" of a lure Edited March 4, 2009 by pikeman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 You really didn't move the tow point very much.......I'm curious if the lure will still swim fine with the two point bent back up to where it was originally. The tapered head and body is probably what made the lure work......good for you for figuring it out! The other thing is, did you change the weight? If not then you essentially "added weight" because you removed some of the buoyancy when you removed some of the wood. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbduc Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 You really didn't move the tow point very much.......I'm curious if the lure will still swim fine with the two point bent back up to where it was originally. The tapered head and body is probably what made the lure work......good for you for figuring it out! The other thing is, did you change the weight? If not then you essentially "added weight" because you removed some of the buoyancy when you removed some of the wood. Jed I did try try the line tie at different places, up high, down low and where I landed seem to give the best movement. It was nice to have the bendable line tie at that point because I could make big moves, test, move again and judge the results in a very short time frame. It seemed the best results were at or just below the nose. The ballast weight remained the same throughout the testing. Originally I had weight in the 1st and 2nd sections. Early on I got rid of the second weight .5 oz and kept the .7 oz in the first. The bait does sit a little lower in the water. You and Vodkaman maybe onto something though with the weight and the wood (red cedar). Maybe it was a matter of finding that point where the force of water was greater than that of the wood. I'm not overly scientific on building. Lots of trial and error. Things seem to stick to my brain best by hands-on experimenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 BBDUC- thanks for Raising this/these problems, you have opened up a lot of doors for us. Because what I have made is not a symmetrical, I am finding only some of the rules apply (I always seem to make my life difficult). Because of the top curve on the leading segment, and weighting biased towards the front, nearly all I have made (3) tended to want to dive, head down, and then tending to roll. I have changed the weighting from vertical flat strips (lead) to horizontal, which as all are saying keeps the weight as low as possible. Ballasting (all segments) so that the lure is horizontal to the water surface. Tapered the body (vertically) to reduce lower half buoyancy, so less ballast required. Placed the tow eye very low and made it as small as possible (minimizing head movement) and used a loop knot instead of clips. All this served to raise the center of buoyancy/gravity, which finally, it appears, let's this shape work Thanks again, you have got us all thinking. I'm getting close, and hope this helps some other 'unconventional' builders. pete [/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
