RiverMan Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) I am giving the DN coating another try and although I had high hopes for it I am running into problems again. I am using the coating over the top of heat cured createx paints. The first coat went on fine. I waited 24 hours and just now applied the second coat and it is orange peeling on me. Just about the etire surface of the lure looks like a gator's back. I have no idea why.....this stuff seems to be way too touchy. It's a real bummer because the lure I am coating is very nice. I am done with DN. Jed Edited March 24, 2009 by RiverMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJ Smith Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Whew.... With all the folks singing the DN praise song now days I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who was having problems. Sorry for your troubles Jed... Hopefully someone way smarter than me can offer up some sound advice........ I have not completely given up on DN..... but I did just order a dozen more syringes of D2T....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) Orange peel occurs when paint or clear is sprayed and the droplets dry before flowing out. Several things can cause orange peel improper reduction/thinning, fast drying solvent/thinner/reducer, improper spraying pressure or gun held to far from surface being sprayed. The condition you mention sounds like wrinkling which can be caused by solvent trapped in underlying paint or finishe. Might try knocking the shine off the first coat of DN with 600 or finer sand paper and letting it set awhile longer before applying a second coat. Edited March 24, 2009 by KcDano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Dano, You know, it was almost like the stuff was starting to dry while I was brushing it on. A few strokes with the brush and it left a rough surface. The container has only been opened three times briefly for me to pour some off which I then applied with a brush. Maybe the stuff I have is too old? Or maybe it was drying in the open container before I could brush it on? I have no idea........... Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KcDano Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) Jed, The stuff might have started to cure, you might try is adding some thinner to it. However, brushing after additional thinning might cause a few headaches itself. Try some additionally thinned DN through a airbrush and see if it will lay down. Yes, as you mentioned it could have degraded over time. Edited March 25, 2009 by KcDano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcheetam Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 The first few baits I did with DNs, I had the same problem. They wrinkled in a couple areas only a minute or two after I began brushing it on. I wasn't completely sure why, so I paid more attention to how long I was heat setting my createx paints before applying additional colors/layers. I hold my hair dryer on a bait so long, my hand begins to burn. When that happens, I feel like I have done about everything I can to make sure my paint is set. Since I started doing this (about a year now), I haven't had a single bait wrinkle on me. And this is using the same pint can the entire time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobv Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 When I first started using DN I was having similar problems. It is real easy to over brush it. You really need to get it on and minimize the brushing. I solved my problems by dipping my lures. No wrinkling no matter how many coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Yeah, DN flashes off and forms a skin quickly. You need to get around the bait pretty quick if you brush it on or you will be brushing up little blobs of dried DN when you return to the first edge. DN wrinkles the underlying DN and paint if it stays in liquid form too long on the bait. This can be caused 2 ways: 1) over brushing the lure and keeping the surface wet for too long. If you do that, the bait will wrinkle all over. 2) applying too thick a coat of DN and clamping the lure on a drying wheel. The DN skins over but is still liquid underneath and the rotation of the wheel collects it into a pool in one or more areas that wrinkle the paint. Sounds like you may have had problem 1). The absolute simplest, most foolproof way to use DN is to dip lures and hang them to dry. The DN gets applied instantly to the whole bait and all the excess DN drips off the tail of the bait. I never get a wrinkle using this method, which is, after all, the way DN was designed to be used in coating metal spoons. We all get hung up about spinning lures on the wheel because we've been using epoxy forever. DN ain't the same animal. It's much more fluid and will drip off rather than sag. Remember the screw ups we all had with epoxy first starting out? It's the same deal here. Whichever application method you choose, brush or dip, you can make a good finish if you follow the rule about not letting liquid DN sit too long on the lure surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Lots of good info here which all applies to some degree to Jed's problem! jcheetam is 100% correct about heat-setting Createx, solving his problem. And Jed, you're correct about DN having gotten partially cured on you, which in retrospect, contributed to BJ's problem. Once opened and exposed to the atmosphere, curing in the container may commence to some degree. The more curing has takenplace, the harder DN is to apply. When DN is drying nearly as soon as you apply it, curing has happened to the extent that smooth application becomes very difficult, even for me, or anyone else with a lot of experience with DN. DN does not apply in this manner when it is from a freshly opened can. When DN is fresh and thin, one can actually get away with a bit of back & forth brushing that would make a total mess out of the stuff that has begun to cure. So the keys to simple, easy, and effective DN application are two-fold. 1. DN must be compatible with the paint over which it's applied. If it is Createx, then it means thoroughly heat set it!! 2. Keep DN fresh! If brushing, as I do, don't let it drip from the brush back into your container. Utilise a known method for preserving your DN. David Sullivan (Captsully) uses an upside-down can tapped with a thumbscrew. I decant into smaller containers and use a finish preserver (Bloxygen) that replaces any air in my containers with an inert gas, which prevents curing from taking place in a closed, sealed container. Another member uses a wine preservative the same way, while others minimze atmospheric contact by using wine or salad dressing bottles, or some combination of these methods. Whichever method you choose, fresh DN is the simplest product I've ever used to get an easily applied, durable, clear, bubble free, finish on every lure I build. I like to think that my baits show that getting a good durable clearcoat can't be that difficult, if I can do it! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjbass Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 How do you guys dip it if you can't let it drip back into the container??? Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobv Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 First off don't use the can it came in to dip into. Pour smaller amounts in to jars with small opening, just big enough for your bait. I use a small olive jar with a good tight lid and cover that with aluminum foil when I'm done. Dip your bait in and pull it out letting it drip into another container. Seal up you jar as soon as you are done. Hang your bait to dry 24hrs and repeat if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 (edited) I don't think it was the paint because I heat set it and it dried overnight. Beyond that, the first coat of DN went on just fine. I think after reading the responses above a couple things are going on. One is that the stuff is maybe not as "fresh" as it could be and secondly I probably over-brushed it. The worst part is the lure is probably ruined. I tried lightly sanding it but it still has a very uneven surface which I just applied a coating of etex to in an attempt to save it. I'm not sure at this point if I will try DN again or not. If I do I will either try spraying or dipping the lures. thank you. Jed Edited March 25, 2009 by RiverMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husky Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I don't think it was the paint because I heat set it and it dried overnight. Beyond that, the first coat of DN went on just fine. I think after reading the responses above a couple things are going on. One is that the stuff is maybe not as "fresh" as it could be and secondly I probably over-brushed it. The worst part is the lure is probably ruined. I tried lightly sanding it but it still has a very uneven surface which I just applied a coating of etex to in an attempt to save it. I'm not sure at this point if I will try DN again or not. If I do I will either try spraying or dipping the lures. thank you. Jed Jed, a fellow on another board has a unique way of stripping baits. He puts a blow torch to it and blisters the paint right off. If the paint has to go, that is one muy rapido way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Thanks Husky........... I put a thin coat of etex over it and altho it didn't fix it completely it does look good enough to fish myself or give to a friend. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcheetam Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I think after reading the responses above a couple things are going on. One is that the stuff is maybe not as "fresh" as it could be and secondly I probably over-brushed it. Jed My can of DNs is 1-year-old. I use the method Dean mentioned about using a screw in the can and taking only the amount I need to finish off the baits I have. When I first got it, I really layed it on thick. I'm thinking that might be the culprit, unless there is compatibility issues with the paint, or contaminants of some kind finding their way onto the bait (just guessing). I'm curious to here what changes you make to your routine and how they turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captsully18 Posted March 26, 2009 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Hey Jed, if you took the lid off the can the DN started curing at that point. When air and moisture, ie. humidity, are introduced to this product it will begin to form a skin on the top. This stuff is an air/moisture cured material just like Perma Gloss from U-40, used for rods. Learned the "screw in the bottom of the can" from the guy that started U-40. Met him at a seminar and mentioned the problems I was having with the Perma Gloss and that I could only coat about three rods before the stuff curred in the bottle. He informed me that it was because each time I opened it I would introduce air, and thusly moisture to the product. It would then begin to cure. He told me that the thing to do was to decant the Perma Gloss into a pint can that had a thumb screw threaded into the side near the bottom. Tightly close the can as soon as the product was decanted. Then, when I need to use it, just unscrew the thumb screw, let as much as I will need out, replace the screw, and no problem. HE WAS EXACTLY RIGHT! I have been using the same Perma Gloss for past two years and there is still some left. Have done approx. 20 rods with it, coated a rod just last night and it is just as fresh as day I bought it. Used above storage method with DN I bought about 16 months ago and results are exactly the same. I turned the can upside down when I got it, poked a small hole in the side near bottom of can, inserted a self tapping thumb screw, and NO PROBLEMS. When I need to clear a bait I just remove the screw, let as much DN as I need to drip out, replace screw, material stays fresh. I brush my clear on and last night I applied two coats to a crankbait within 30 min. of each other, had no trouble brushing at all. To be brutally honest, I fail to understand all the hullaballoo over this stuff. How simple can a process be. There is no mixing, no thinning, and this is the HARDEST clear coat a person can put on a bait. I promise that I have bounced several of my crankbaits off rock cliffs, not intentionally but because I can't cast for crap, and I do not have a single bait that has a scratch or crack. I have intentionally bounced a bait off the rock wall of my basement and cannot get the stuff to even scuff. If you for some reason don't like the screw in the can method, then by all means use Dean McClain's method of Bolxigen, or some other inert gas. If you feel the need to dip, use the gas. This stuff will last a loooong time and remain fresh if you just take the time to eliminate the outside air/moisture. There, that's my , or, after looking this epistle over, maybe 5 or 10 cents. Oh well, sorry for the length. Hope this helps someone. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Thanks Capt. Do you have problem with the "self tapping thumb screw" leaking? Can a buy this screw at a local hardware store? Dean wrote me a very humbling message earlier today reminding me of my reluctance to use use Etex at one time and also my favorite wood, poplar! He has a better memory than I do! At any rate, he got me thinking that I need to give the DN a little time to get through the learning curve. For this reason, I intend to do some further experimenting in the coming days. Thank you. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captsully18 Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Yes Jed, you can get screws at local hardware. Just make sure they are self tapping and that the starter hole is smaller than the screw. And yes there will be some leaking. This is good. The leaking will allow a build up on outside that helps the screw seal, so a little leaking is good in this case. As you use the DN it will build up and be automatically threaded to the screw and after a while there will be no more leakage. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZX250 Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Hi guys, I also have had a problem with DN top coat. I am spraying it with an airbrush, I have to thin it 30% to get it to spray a nice coat. The first time I used it, it set up beautiful, hard as rock and water clear. The last two times I sprayed it, it still looks great, but 2 or 3 days later it still isn't hard. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I thinned it with lacquer thinner each time. Any help would greatly appreciated. If I can get it to work like it did the first time everytime it would be the best clearcoat I've ever used. One more thing, this is my first post, but I have been learning from you guys for a long and I wanted to thank all of you for the great info. This has got to be the best site on the web!! JZX250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captsully18 Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 JZ, I can't say about spraying DN. I don't see the need to. If it is spread thinly with a brush and turned for about 20 min. there are no runs, no drips, no errors. And you don't have to figure how much to thin it, and you don't have to clean your airbrush. Brushing it on right out of the can gives you the same finish every time. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 I have two questions for the DN experts. 1. What do you pour the DN into before brushing and what keeps it from setting up in the brush container? 2. How do you know if the DN you have isn't "fresh" anymore? The stuff I have is about the consistency of maple syrup, maybe a bit thinner. thx. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captsully18 Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Jed, I pour mine into the plastic bottle caps that come off soft drink bottles. Less than half a capfull does three crankbaits like Big-Os. I have no problem with it setting up in the cap. I throw what ever is left in the cap out with the cap. If yours is the consistency of maple syrup, you need to get a fresh supply. I would have to say that it has begun to set up due to opening the lid too often. However I say this without knowing for sure how you have been using it. Once it begins to set up there is no way to stop it. What you are saying is the same problem I had with the Perma Gloss before I learned how to store it. Hope this helps and hang in there. Good luck David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jameso321 Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 What would be the minumum shop temperature to use DN lure coat? At most the shop has been about 60 degrees lately Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Jed, your DN will eventually form a crust and begin to cure in the container. Before I bit the bullet and began using better storage practices, I used DN as thick as molasses thinned with lacquer thinner. Once it crusts over, you can still use it as long as you don't grab any of the crust (actually it's more like a tough hockey puck) when you spoon it out of the jar. But there's no way to stop the cure and it becomes a lot less "user-friendly" as it gets thicker - which doesn't take long to progress. James, I've dipped in DN at 50 degrees with no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted March 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Ok thanks you guys. So what is the consistency when it is fresh? Is it about like water? Just wondering if I should add some LT now. Jed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
