Swede Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 The x-point would be the nonmoving part of the lure seen from above ,its the axis of movement. For example if you take your lure to a stream set it barely submerged you will have a point on your lure that barely moves at all thats the x-point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 @ Swede I understood that ,.....I was just wondering , whether it would be identical with the lengthwise center of gravity:? ! But thanks a lot for providing that info about that "X" point , something , that I need to bear in mind ! greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Dieter Center of gravity has some to do with center of movement , but thats a thing you can tinker with after you have a working lure to get "hunting" action incorporated to your lure . But thats a complete diffrent issue . If you ook at Lapala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 @ Swede OK , thanks for info ! greetz , diemai:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinyo Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 @swede I have been thinking about that X point for a long time ago...but I'm not sure until u telling me about it... thx swede I'll try it tomorrow, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 @ Swede Would that "X" point be the same location as the center of gravity lengthwise ? I mean that point where you would hang the lure on a thread and it would hang absolutely horizontal , just similar to ancient scales ! greetz , diemai:yay: Deimai I think you are talking about center of balance. When testing your bait in the water the bait will lay flat and even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) The exray that lapala gave is a good start in my opinion. Those baits are made to suspend and you can work them to a pretty good depth when useing them. The key is to find the right amount of weight to get what you are looking for.It only takes one drop lead when pouring lead into making it a sinker or a slow floater. I would find this point of sinking first , how much lead does it take to make a slow sink and thats were you need to start. Then you can play with lead placements on the bait to see if it improves your action or kills it. Dont overlook the weighting down the spine of your bait. Look into one of my old threads (weighting down the spine) and this could help. Edited April 10, 2009 by jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robalo01 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I'll admit I have very ;ittle experience with this. I've only been building divers for a few months. But these are some comclusions I've come to: The diference between the bouyancy of the material you are using for the body and the weight of the ballast are what keep the bait erect in the water. The for/aft position of the ballast in relation to the bill (x-point as it's been called) allows the bait to wiggle. So, It seems to me that it is much easier to weight a light material to get it to run correctly than to use heavier would. The greter the difference in weight between the body and the ballast the less likely the bait is to roll because there will be a greater resistance to rolling. Then it is just a matter of adjusting the position of the ballast in relation to the size and angle of the bill and tiing point. I'm I right here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 @ jamie Yes , that's what I meant ,...sorry about using wrong terminology:huh: ! @ robalo01 Guess , that you're right about your theory , your suggestion about adjusting the position of the ballast is seemingly same thing that I stated in one of my previous posts in this thread about putting a share of the entire ballast into the back of the lure . greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I have a buddy of mine who makes suspending cranks for muskys using oak. His baits have a nice swim and hang there on a pause. Its pain stakeing work getting each bait weighted the way he wants them because it does float( very slow rise).all it would take is a few drops of lead to make them sink. I make some gliders ,out of oak, that sink that has a natural swim pitching left and right when reeled straight in and they are sinking baits with no lip in them. They swim from the body shape and design. So try useing a more dense wood because it does have bouyancy or you wouldnt have to add lead to it if it didnt. so try a heavier wood if you cant get what your working with to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 @ jamie Your buddy must be a blessed luremaker , since the target is difficult to achieve to have the lure swim well just by shape and design . I have suggested in a previous post in here , to use less buoyant wood , but I won't like to go without a little "balancing option" by ballast . If the lure already sinks without any weight added , I would only have the choice between , maybe , suspending and/or sinking like a brick ! What I actually wanna say is , that if your design and shape of that heavy wood lure would fail somehow , you won't have much possibilities anymore to save your bait from the trashcan . I think , that it really takes skills and experience , what your buddy is doin' . greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) @ jamieYour buddy must be a blessed luremaker , since the target is difficult to achieve to have the lure swim well just by shape and design . I have suggested in a previous post in here , to use less buoyant wood , but I won't like to go without a little "balancing option" by ballast . If the lure already sinks without any weight added , I would only have the choice between , maybe , suspending and/or sinking like a brick ! What I actually wanna say is , that if your design and shape of that heavy wood lure would fail somehow , you won't have much possibilities anymore to save your bait from the trashcan . I think , that it really takes skills and experience , what your buddy is doin' . greetz , diemai:yay: All the lures that I mentioned above has lead ballast weight in them. And for the lure that I make that has a natural swim to it, it works almost with the swim bait idea with vortex helping the swim.The key to my bait is a sharp nose and the body slims down to the tail of the bait. deimai there are alot of baits out there there that swim off of their shape with no lips look at a rattle trap. Edited April 11, 2009 by jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) All the lures that I mentioned above has lead ballast weight in them. And for the lure that I make that has a natural swim to it, it works almost with the swim bait idea with vortex helping the swim.The key to my bait is a sharp nose and the body slims down to the tail of the bait. deimai there are alot of baits out there there that swim off of their shape with no lips look at a rattle trap. the glide bait I metioned swims in a zig zag fashion on a straight retrieve Edited April 11, 2009 by jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 @ jamie Surely there such baits around , I have built some simple ones as well , if these should have the action , that you are refering to : They swim in a kinda "wave" pattern on a straight retrieve , same time swinging the belly left/right . I fish them in a "pull-and-pause" manner , when pulling them , I can feel quite a shake in the rodtip , as the lures are edging left/right . Uploaded them in the gallery a longer time ago , they are named "PacMan" and "Rolf's Wiggler" , maybe you have seen them there before ? greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Its kind of what your talking about but there is no vibration it does have a left to right glide when reeling straight in.Its the same kind of action as a glider when jerking but its a tighter glide when reeling in. There is nothing special about it. Its makes a s type of retrieve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 @ jamie OK , exactly , ........an "S" shaped swimming motion , that's it ! ..........But I guess , that probably we might get a little more and more off topic with our discussion:? ? But if I think over it properly ,.........if I had made these lure models , which are rather flat-bodied , of a little more dense kinda wood , they would not have required as much ballast to let them sink(or just float up in case of "Rolf's Wiggler)) the same manner as they do now ! As a result their bellies would swing sideward a little more on a constant pull , thus that "S"-pattern would become wider from peak to peak of the wave . But on the other hand , .......if the ballast would be too small , the lure might just lay on its side on a pull and not swing back for the "S" pattern anymore , one needs to find a happy compromise . greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Sorry to get a little off topic but the point I was trying to make is denser wood does have some action to them, not as much as a more bouyant baits but they do have action. If you have to add so much weight to a more bouyant bait to get it to sink you have killed all the positive action thatthe bouyant bait has, thus no purpose in the more bouyant bait.If you have two of thesame baits but made of different material and they sink at the same rate, one bait isnt more bouyant as the other.The positive to me with the denser wood is that the desity is displaced throughout the whole bait instead of an anchor in the belly of a bait.Now I might be wrong in saying this I would like to here some comments. I really dont know exactly how to write this, Imight need vodkaman to help me,but the two baits are the same volume in size and it takesthe same mass to get them both to sink at the same rate. Its just one has the majority of the weight in the belly killing the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinyo Posted April 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 @swede: I've tried your advise about lure without lead..but it wont work at all.when i put it on the water it's always laying flat on the surface and spinning if i retrieve them.... @diemai: your idea about sharing the weight and put them on the tail work pretty good. even thought i didn't put the share right on tail but just lil bit behind belly hook.(doesn't have much space for the lead on the tail.... it's too small) but still...this is not sinking lure just diving but I'm very happy n satisfy with the action specially in slow retrieve:yay: one question again diemai: if I really put the share on the tail..is the action will increase? if yes maybe i should change my body design, to make more space in the tail thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Siniyo can you post a picture of the lure you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayupnorth36 Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 I have made many sinking lures, though they are always large musky lures 5" in length or more. I have never added any weight, except that of the hooks and hardware. I use a denser wood (oak or maple around here) which still floats. Just put a few more coats of clear on, a good heavy thick epoxy like etex. I simply take the same bait that works as a floating bait and add a couple more coats of etex. Nothing radical. You wouldn't even know the difference just by looking. I haven't experimented with smaller baits, so maybe this only works on larger ones because the mass of the epoxy is enough to overcome the buoyancy. If absolutely necessary, add a small amount of lead at approximately the "pivot point" in the bait, if that makes sense, the point of the bait that moves side to side the least in the natural course of the bait's action. Hope this helps. Might just be a fluke that it works for me, i haven't had enough years of experience to know for sure, so it might just have been luck, but it has been consistent. Good luck Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 @ sinyo A picture of your lure would really help ! In general I have made the experience , that weight in the tail(belly side) of a minnow-shaped lure minors the wobble or even kills it entirely . On such lures the weight most likely is located between lip and belly hook hanger and/or shortly behind , but this is only a rule of thumb , surely there are always exceptions to the rule ! greetz , diemai:yay: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Sinyo lets start over, what kind of wood is easily available to you. Need to know of few dense woods and a few more bouyant wood , and from here we all can help out on a good start. Then we can try making two baits one with the top best choices ( if you want) and see what happens.If you can print off and post a drawing of this bait so others , (maybe a few of us who has this same wood available) can help build and work in finding the best results.I think this will be a fun group project, if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinyo Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I never expected intentions like this before...thx guys this is my earliest project that I told to U in post #43 I have made 15 blank body with in this shape and already experimenting in 4 of them by adding some lead in various location but location seen in this picture is the best so far lead dimensions I used in this lure is :3mm---diameters, 5mm(front hole) 3mm(back hole)---length I don't have electric scale, so I don't know exactly how much the weight of the lead...for experimenting I only used dimensions like that @jamie:if U asked what wood available here? it so many too mentioned it one by one, U know Ind:bull:sia is in 2nd place behind brazil in the number of forrest n top rank in illegal loging:lol: but in this lure I used Guazuma ulmifolia Lamk because it's cheap, easy to find n shape this woods also called: [*] English: Bastard cedar, jacocalalu, West Indian elm [*] France: bois d'orme [*] Spain : bolaina negra, cabeza de negro, caulote, gu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Siniyo have you tried other lips on the lure? Sometimes a too big lip can kill the action on small lures .Try to place the linetie lower towards the lip or even on the lip . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinyo Posted April 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Siniyo have you tried other lips on the lure? Sometimes a too big lip can kill the action on small lures .Try to place the linetie lower towards the lip or even on the lip . once i change bigger size lip.. like you said it kill the action but i don't try smaller lip because I want my lure to dive to the bottom of pool do you think that lip is too big? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
