Big Pancho Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hello gang. Well I hope I do this right this time. I am new to making baits and need some advise as to what angle the lower front fin on my bait should be at. I can't seem to stop this guy from rolling. I have tried 3/8 to 1/2 lead inside of the bait but I know that the fin placement is all wrong. I found this out by removing the front fins and the bait swam true. The front of this bait is not wide so it don't plane like some of the larger bass swimbaits. Also where can I buy the internal weighted inserts for this bait? I can't seem to find them anywhere. Here is a picture of my problem bait. Thank you guys in advance. Big Pancho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Hello gang. Well I hope I do this right this time. I am new to making baits and need some advise as to what angle the lower front fin on my bait should be at. I can't seem to stop this guy from rolling. I have tried 3/8 to 1/2 lead inside of the bait but I know that the fin placement is all wrong. I found this out by removing the front fins and the bait swam true. The front of this bait is not wide so it don't plane like some of the larger bass swimbaits. Also where can I buy the internal weighted inserts for this bait? I can't seem to find them anywhere. Here is a picture of my problem bait. Thank you guys in advance.Big Pancho You can make your own inserrts with mojo weights Try removing your bottom fins and put fins or "wings" on the side of the bait similar to a "baby e"...That should will help with the rolling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 What did Capt G. recommend??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 What did Capt G. recommend??? Patrick I tried Capt G recommendation on his internal hook set up and it works great.The problem with this bait is that even with 1/2 ounce of lead in the bait the bait still rolls. I kinda know the problem lies on the angle of the lower fins. I am trying to get an answer as to what angle the fins should be at before I cast another silicone mold. This hobby is not cheep and I know we all learn from our mistakes but I would rather ask a question than to waist another 40.00 dollar on a mold that is not going to work. Till next time Big Pancho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 You have really ansered your own question. By removing the fins, you got the lure to work. This kind of lure is all about the tail. You need a nice smooth flow of water to the tail, then the action starts. Those pec fins are obviously disturbing the water and picking up unwanted forces, causing the bait to roll. Patricks suggestion is reasonable, moving the fins to a more horizontal position, but even this has no guarantees, plus, it is not the visual effect that you are looking for. They are purely for aesthetic effect, I would get rid. If you really want them, then it is probably cheaper to test different locations by gluing, Then make a mold when you have got the fins to work. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finfever Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 You want to sell 1 or 2 of those molds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) You want to sell 1 or 2 of those molds? FinFever my bait is still in the design mode and I need to get it to swim right. Maybe at a later date I will think about selling the molds. But thanks for asking about the bait. I really like the way the bait turned out with the fins, and would like to keep them. I am going to maybe try what Dave and Patrick suggested making a few and different fin placements, and cross my fingers. Here is a larger one of my baits that will need some work as well. Thanks again guys for you input on the baits. Edited April 20, 2009 by Big Pancho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) sorry posted twice. Still learning newbie mistake Edited April 20, 2009 by Big Pancho oops double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 in order for the bait to swim right the fins must be perfectly symetrical if its off in the smallest way it til spin. thats when even the factory ones spin from time to time, Lining it up by Eye wont work. in order to make it work and make up for the spin you can throw wings on it it will help level it out, however if your bait is too far out of wack even wings wont help. the only way to make a perfectly symetrical bait is via a computer and a machine either making a master or a mold. this is one problem with using resin Pop and rtv and swimbaits. put the wings in and you should correct the problem unless your way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Thank you so much Del for the information on the fin placement. I will keep trying modification to get this thing to swim right. If it don't work off come the front fins. The bait swims great without the fins but I really like the look. The modification are kinda expensive. But what the hell I have to pay my dews as a newbie. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Thank you so much Del for the information on the fin placement. I will keep trying modification to get this thing to swim right. If it don't work off come the front fins. The bait swims great without the fins but I really like the look. The modification are kinda expensive. But what the hell I have to pay my dews as a newbie. Thanks again how are the modifications expensive? your making the master out of clay it looks like and the molds out of a pop or something. its manly time not an expence. if your hobby is making baits than there is no expense on time as thats what a hobby is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshot Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Think fluid dynamics guys. I count 6 fins on that bait. Those fins are trying to straighten out the bait as it cruises through the water. On the back is an airfoil acting as a disruptor/rudder. There is more surface area devoted to straightening the bait than getting it to move across 1 axis when pulled through another axis. The larger straightening forces are magnifying any little defect on that tail, and trying to keep the bait from wobbling. Since I doubt the tail is absolutely perfect, it pulls to one side, the side fins straighten the bait across that axis, and it ends up rolling. I'm also into model rocketry, and I liken this to the 6-fin rockets I've built. Even if you're using a fin jig, the more fins you put on, the more perfect they have to be, since they want to act like the duct fan on a jet engine when the air (fluid) moves across them. Put these two things together, and you are just asking for spin instead of wobble. My $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshot Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Whoops. I now see 7 fins on the bigger one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Think fluid dynamics guys.I count 6 fins on that bait. Those fins are trying to straighten out the bait as it cruises through the water. On the back is an airfoil acting as a disruptor/rudder. There is more surface area devoted to straightening the bait than getting it to move across 1 axis when pulled through another axis. The larger straightening forces are magnifying any little defect on that tail, and trying to keep the bait from wobbling. Since I doubt the tail is absolutely perfect, it pulls to one side, the side fins straighten the bait across that axis, and it ends up rolling. I'm also into model rocketry, and I liken this to the 6-fin rockets I've built. Even if you're using a fin jig, the more fins you put on, the more perfect they have to be, since they want to act like the duct fan on a jet engine when the air (fluid) moves across them. Put these two things together, and you are just asking for spin instead of wobble. My $0.02 Your MONEY man!!!!! I think with that many fins you would almost have to create the master via computer and have it cut. The room for error is so small. As stated, the slightest imperfection will cause significant issues. Even a slight amount of extra bait on either side of the axis will cause issue... Good luck though as "where there is a will, there is a way"!!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headshot Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Your MONEY man!!!!!Jim No, you're MONEY. I'm still a newb. I have learned a ton from you and the others. So thank you. This site rocks. I'm starting to get the itchy "browser refresh" finger these days. I only wish there were MORE posts, hehe. And don't get me wrong Big Pancho, that's a really REALLY nice looking bait. I just think you'll have a lot of problems getting it to swim well with all that hydrofoil. The reason fish can manuever so quickly is because of those fins. They can move them on-the-fly to correct or change direction, you can't. But good luck with your bait anyhow. Edited April 22, 2009 by headshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Hello gang just wanted to thank you all for your help with my bait. I was not able to get the fins to work correctly so I removed the front fins and carve in a set of fins in the body. I kept the rear fin to give it a different look. It swim true now. I do have a question on the raw weight that is inside the bait. I know in time it will turn the rubber white. Is there any type of coating I can cover the raw lead in order to stop this from happening?. Any input would be appreciated. Here is the lead and hook set up I am using in the bait now. This hook and weight set up is out of a Storm swimbait. Also is there a mold out there for sale in order for me to make these for my future baits. Or is this something I need to make? Well gang thanks again for the help. Here is the bait without it's front fins and the weight and hook set up I am asking about. Till next time. Big Pancho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Powder Paint or Expoy coat the led to keep the corrosion down. JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Does the lead really corrode inside the plastic? I would have thought that the plastic would prevent the oxygen getting to the lead, thus eliminating the corrosion process. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 No the lead doesnt corrode plastic, I have a dozen swimbais with lead inserts that are over a year old and fished the inserts look just fine to me.. if anything the oxidation will get on the lead , but never heard of plastic corroding. the plastic will form a pretty much air tight seal to the insert on the hand pour molds, I think the factor molds get the inserts pushed in them after they are poured not sure but have noticed that the org babe and tiny "e" are a little sloppier and loose the inserts quite often. however once you start getting whacked on the swimbait the fish twisting and turning will alow the plastic to bend in a way to get water between the insert and plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pancho Posted April 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Del I believe that there will be a chemical reaction once water is introduced into the plastic and lead, I have seen this happen to other baits I have used. There will be a white chalky substance that will come out of the bait and also discoloration will form. I have noticed that Storm swimbaits wraps there internal lead in some type of thin and holographic film. I think this film is not only for the look but also to put a barrier around the raw lead in order for it not to cause the chemical reaction. Just my 2 cents. Thank for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Its called oxidation and it doesnt happen that often unless your water is alkinliny(sp?) Storm wraps theres for the simple fact that ugly lead doesnt sell but a nice shinny foil in there makes the bait look better to the customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Oxidation of the LEAD is better worded than corrode (Lead not Plastic). I worked with this many years ago and found it was best to coat the lead with epoxy paint ... now with powder paint is better and if you work your colors with traslucent plastic colors you can relly get some great results. I have noticed that not all lead inserts will have this action ... I think it is affected by the humidity of the atmosphere when it is molded in... for all that i do now I make sure I have them powder painted and work the color in with the lure color for the best effect .. Incidently I noticed back in the old days of using Lacquer that you could get this oxidation even after a good prep of the metal ... My JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
