JigKing Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I am looking for a good blank for under 150, how are the Rogue blanks compared to the other big names? Also do you have to finish a blank like gloomis and other companies do or can you leave it unfinished like kistler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Rogue makes a fine blank. Nothing spectacular. Don't expect anything like a GLX or Legend Elite. But they certainly compete with the GL3' and Avid line of blanks. Rod blanks do not need any finish at all. I've left my Rogues as they came. Loomis GLX blanks are unfinished too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidgrad Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I'd disagree with Mattman. They are great blanks. IMO think comparing them to an Avid or GL3 is a little off. I think they are higher than that. GLX or SCV... no. But I'll take my Rogues over a SCIV any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I believe the difference between cidgrad's comments and mine are that his comments are opinion and mine are based on the numbers I see. I measure each blank I work with for action, power, etc. In looking at specific models that are rated alike for line/lure ratings, the St. Croix Avids average about 8% higher than the Rogues for power to weight ratio. Legend Elites have about a 20% higher power to weight ratio than the Rogues. While I don't have any LT's to compare directly to Rogue models they typically are low double digit percentages over the Avid's. Bottom line for me...the Rogues generate numbers comparable to the Avid or GL3 grade of rod blanks. As do a number of other blanks out there. It's the middle of the road market and just about every blank manufacturer has a blank in that class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidgrad Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Matt - no need to take that tone. Really... Since you brought it up, are you using the CCS? Some other set of measurements? Please share your methodology so we can all validate your numbers as accurate and understand how they are derived more than anything. I can see numbers all day but until I can duplicate and decifer - they mean nothing. I would be interested to see as I may learn something from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I think most blanks, even in "natural" charcoal graphite are clearcoated. I built 5-6 rods using MB664 and MB705 Rogue blanks and they're my favorites. I didn't measure their deflection characteristics but have developed opinions about them based on 5 years of use. What I like - they typically have a softer tip section than other bass blanks. That makes them cast easier and more accurately for me, but they still have good power down the blank. 10 lb bass? No problem. Also, Rogue MB's are significantly lighter than other blanks in their price range and were lighter than most high end blanks available when I built them. For example, my Rogue MB705 weighs 3.91 oz. My very expensive St Croix 5C70MHF Legend Elite weighs 4.23 oz. They are built the same except the St Croix's has even lighter guides than the Rogue!. It's worth noting that Rogue MB's seem 1/2 to 1 power less than Rogue labels them, compared to similar blanks from other companies. For instance, the MB664 is termed MH, but seems closer to M power. IMO it's a great general purpose bass rod that does many presentations well. The MB705 is rated H power but is definitely a MH to me. It's a good rod for pitching jigs or Carolina rigs. I wouldn't choose a Rogue MB for a frog rod or a flipping stick due to the softer tip section but when you don't need a broomstick, a Rogue is a good choice. As far as sensitivity goes, I can't argue a Rogue MB vs a St Croix LE in terms of lab measurements. But will opine that a Rogue built with good components, well balanced and lined with fluorocarbon is plenty sensitive enough for any touchy-feely presentation like worms and jigs. Yes, the St Croix LE may be slightly more sensitive built exactly the same way, but it's also WAY more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 cidgrad - Sorry you felt there was "tone". None was intended. While the offer to validate is thoughtful, I'll pass. I'm not looking for validation. I do not use CCS as I feel it falls short in many ways for spin/cast blanks. I am using a system that is very similar. There is a group of us that share data among us. The primary developer of the system is a research scientist by profession. We have all set up our measuring system the same way and have validated our numbers with a set of control blanks that we each measured on our own set ups and compared numbers to ensure we were all measuring identically. BobP - In a discussion on blanks, you provide weights of finished rods which even though are built "identically" may have enough of a difference to account for the 0.32 ounces. A little heavier finish, a little more epoxy inside the reel seat, etc... In looking at the numbers on Rogue blanks and similar Avids and LE's that I have handy I would say that Rogues are not lighter than Legend Elite blanks, as a rule of thumb. They are light blanks, especially for the level they are at and are almost always lighter than Avid's. The MB705 is one of the few blanks I've seen that does actually weigh less than the closest LE. 2.21 ounces vs. 2.45 ounces for the LE. Which follows your observation. However, its power to weight ratio is 24% lower than the LE. In a nutshell...it takes only 4.8 grams to deflect the Rogue and 6.9 grams to deflect the LE. The MB705 is much further off the power mark compared to the St. Croix's than other models I've compared. Typically other models are well within a gram. The MB705 is actually only nine tenths of a gram heavier in deflection than the MB703. Which puts those two models quite close together even though there is yet another model in between the two. But in going back to the original question since this has strayed so far... Rogue makes a very good blank. My ranting is only meant to validate that while they are nice...they're not GLX or LE nice. But they compare very favorably to other options in that same price class. You certainly won't be dissapointed in Rogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidgrad Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Matt - Apology accepted. Thanks. You're dropping this "Power to weight ratio" - explain what that means. Again the numbers mean nothing to me without an explanation. I really am interested in understanding what your formula tells. I'm also interested in the deflection measure. If the blank has a "soft" tip, couldn't it deflect with less weight but still have more "backbone" than a blank with a "harder" tip? Again, I simply don't know your calculations. Right now, your numbers are unsupported. No need to defend - not asking for defense - I'd just like to see the support and methodology. Unsupported math is no better than an opinion.It's 100% objective at that point until it can be verified, and at the least understood. I'm curious - compare a Rogue BB796 to a 5C711HMF and let me know the power to weight ratio (with that explained) and final build weights. Both rods can be built to perform the same functions in bass fishing. How would you evenly compare the MB704 to something in the St Croix line up? St Croix has nothing with a 1/4 to 3/4oz lure rating. BobP - the Rogues have no "clearcoat". The rods are just plain graphite with no top coat. You can put a scotchbrite pad on one and you won't see a difference in the finish. I believe this is an advantage as there's no added weight or impact to blank flex from a paint job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 If I built rods for customers (God forbid!), I'd also quantify power to weight ratios like Mattman. There's lots of confusion when it comes to picking exactly the right rod for a particular fishing presentation. Any hard data is gold. Many guys have only a vague idea what they want or need because they've never used rods in the category they're buying into - that's why they're buying that rod in the first place. That's where good advice built on experience from a custom rod builder can help. But at the end of the day, it's the fisherman using the rod over years that determines whether the blank was right for the way he fishes, his expectations, his results and his personal likes-dislikes. Sensitivity is the main thing I shell out for when buying high end rods. You can infer blank sensitivity with numbers but it but it's real meaning is "how well I can detect subtle bites". There's no way to quantify that among different fishermen. Happily, there's plenty of room for debate when we mix and match laboratory measurements with living breathing humans, and then throw it all into a bass boat:). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidgrad Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 BobP - you have a very level headed approach to looking at it. I build for customers and personally I can't imagine dropping numbers on them like that. Maybe for some it would be helpful, but for most they are going to pick up the rod and give it the old shake test - for them that's as precise as a formula based methodology when they have no understanding of the numbers and the terms I'm still confused on the Power to Weight ratio. I'm seeing a lot of "lower" and "higher". What's the base line? Does power to weight mean resistance to bending vs weight of the blank? If so, why is that important - what measure is that giving us? Is it a type of index? Finished blank or bare blank? BobP - you hit the nail on the head - what matters at the end of the day is the finished rod on the water with a lure tied on being casted. Will it work and does the angler like it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidgrad Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 At least you and I agree you don't throw numbers at someone! That's a start toward happiness! This progressed into blank measurement when you started throwing numbers and to use those # you have to understand them which means the methodology behind discovery. Otherwise they are useless info to someone who doesn't have that piece. Kinda like putting together a puzzle without a picture. I would still be interested in a definition of power to weight ratio so we can get back to a better understanding of why your critique of Rogues vs St Croix is as it was and I can have a better understanding of your perspective. You really did peak my curiosity with that measurement. Sounds like your tip measurement is similar to AA in the CCS - regardless of the method, you're coming up with that number using a baseline. Again, I know the CCS because its well published (but not a devotee). I agree that as a builder that info can at times can be helpful. I would be very interested in your data comparing a BB796 to a 5C76HMF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
