mainbutter Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 My mom is one of those people who likes to get x-mas shopping done early in the year and as it is "only" 3 months away, she's already bugging me for at least a partial list. Well, now that I've been successful with both building and catching fish with wire baits and hard baits, I've decided to move into soft plastics, and I'm going to put equipment, molds, etc on my x-mas wish list. I'll have the entire approaching hard-water season to work on lures, and I'm thinking I'll put at least half my focus on soft baits. I'm hoping you guys can sort of give me a quick run-through of equipment I should be looking at, websites and stores to look at, etc. I'm extremely interested in swimbaits particularly, of all shapes, sizes, and actions. Also, as I've been browsing google/internet stores/etc for soft plastic info, I came across lure craft's soft plastic tutorial dvd. Is this worth purchasing before diving in headfirst? A pre-emptive huge thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegrasslover Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm a newbie at this myself and my stuff isn't perfect yet but I think you can get all the info you need using this forum and the tutorials. I got my first stuff from lure craft and was happy with it. Checkout the Resources in the left navigation link. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Boys Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 You can get started fairly cheap.. 1- microwave 2-4 Pyrex measure cups 8 oz is good can get bigger 1-- mask for fumes 1--gallon medium plastic-- Lure Craft or Bears or other a few asst swim bait molds from L.C.or other 1 oz. colors black,,Green,, Blue,,pearl white glitter.015 is fine .035 is medium black..silver, gold,,green,, blue,, scent if you want..craw or bait fish that should get you a lot of swim baits. I have pics of 3 swim baits from Lure Craft on my sites home page. if you like um I can get you the stock numbers.they have many others too some of the other guys on here can help with some other part numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainbutter Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 thanks guys, a couple more questions: What are the benefits of the melting pots from lure craft, as opposed to just using microwaves? What will I need to pour multiple-colored lures? If I wanted to expand beyond bass-boy's suggested equipment, what would be at the top of your list and why? Just more molds? What are the pros and cons of the different popular plastics you guys use? I know everyone has their preferences, and sometimes it isn't much more than "well it's the first thing I tried and it just works so I stayed with it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351mustang65 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) I am new to this as well and here is what got to start. A hot plate from walmart Three pouring pans from Lurecraft Seven molds Del-Mart large color kit I started out melting old plastics then got free samples of plastic from M-F and Lurecraft (I like the Lurecraft more) I'm going to be buying a gallon from Ozark Tackle to try as well. Edited October 5, 2009 by 351mustang65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I would recommend injection molds. The reasoning behind my advice is the learning curve is so much faster. You can be pumping out perfect baits within minutes of setting your stuff up. Contact Bear at Bears Baits and have him set you up with a starter kit for injection molds. You will still need microwave and pyrex or hot plate and pans but this will be the fastest way to quality baits. You can do core shots with the injectors. There is a dual injector for doing laminants. Its amazing what can be done. And the service is second to none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake4321 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Mainbutter, Above all make sure you buy the proper safety equipment, first is to get a good respirator. Also get proper safety glasses, gloves, fire extinguisher etc. Lots of good info on this web site, use the search function. PS: One of the better items I got was a Laser Thermometer to measure the Plastisol temperature, no guessing anymore. Good Luck Jake Edited October 6, 2009 by jake4321 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) I would recommend injection molds. The reasoning behind my advice is the learning curve is so much faster. You can be pumping out perfect baits within minutes of setting your stuff up.Contact Bear at Bears Baits and have him set you up with a starter kit for injection molds. You will still need microwave and pyrex or hot plate and pans but this will be the fastest way to quality baits. You can do core shots with the injectors. There is a dual injector for doing laminants. Its amazing what can be done. And the service is second to none. Just remember, injection IS different than hand pouring. Your options will be limited on some things with hand injection vs. hand pouring. Some say core shots can't be done with hand pouring but I beg to differ. Not saying one is better than the other, but if you want to hand pour, then injection is not what you want. If you want to make quantity, hand injection might be right. For swims, hand poured is the way to go. I can't see how you can do anything like the California Baby e's or other line through baits with hand injection. Here is a hand poured, hollow belly gizzard shad that cannot be accomplished any other way than hand pour. Check Del's starter kits, Bob's Tackle Shack and Bass Tackle as well. I would look for a baby e type mold, a slim swimbait mold with hook slot and something like a skinny dipper to start. They all give different types of actions and catch when others may not. Jim Edited October 6, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Just remember, injection IS different than hand pouring. Your options will be limited on some things with hand injection vs. hand pouring. Some say core shots can't be done with hand pouring but I beg to differ. Not saying one is better than the other, but if you want to hand pour, then injection is not what you want. If you want to make quantity, hand injection might be right.For swims, hand poured is the way to go. I can't see how you can do anything like the California Baby e's or other line through baits with hand injection. Here is a hand poured, hollow belly gizzard shad that cannot be accomplished any other way than hand pour. Check Del's starter kits, Bob's Tackle Shack and Bass Tackle as well. I would look for a baby e type mold, a slim swimbait mold with hook slot and something like a skinny dipper to start. They all give different types of actions and catch when others may not. Jim I will also be the first to say if Jim says it can be done by hand pouring he can do it! I have no doubt in my mind. Check out his web site and look at his other baits. It will take me years to learn what he can do, and I still may not get it.. Thats what I am talking about on the shorter learning curve. But like Jim pointed out, everyway has its limits also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Boys Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Jim, awesome swims..... what are you using to glue the eyes on with.. also are you putting anything over the eyes? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Jeff... I'll pm you info so we don't hijack this post... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zbass Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Just remember, injection IS different than hand pouring. Your options will be limited on some things with hand injection vs. hand pouring. Some say core shots can't be done with hand pouring but I beg to differ. Not saying one is better than the other, but if you want to hand pour, then injection is not what you want. If you want to make quantity, hand injection might be right.For swims, hand poured is the way to go. I can't see how you can do anything like the California Baby e's or other line through baits with hand injection. Here is a hand poured, hollow belly gizzard shad that cannot be accomplished any other way than hand pour. Check Del's starter kits, Bob's Tackle Shack and Bass Tackle as well. I would look for a baby e type mold, a slim swimbait mold with hook slot and something like a skinny dipper to start. They all give different types of actions and catch when others may not. Jim I always thought that style of bait was dipped, not poured. Whos mold are you pouring to get those Jim? I may want to get one if they pour that easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 This style is poured and then dipped. I had a shop make these for me personally. Can't be bought exactly like these from anyone right now that I know of. Check with Del though, he might have something. Sorry... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 The learning curve in injection is not faster than hand pouring, you still have to use your basic common plastic principles, its about the same learning curve. there are also things that if your dont have any experiance in hand pouring you will never figure it out in hand injecting. hand pouring does give you experiance and you also leanr to respect how much damage hot plastic can do to unprotected body parts. there are pros and cons to both injection and hand pouring like anything else. Swimbaits are best hand poured as most have a flat top, a hand injection wouldnt even be cost efective in something like a swimbait mold. the top opening is big enough anyone can pour, it would be like throwing a hot dog down a hall way you just cant miss. not to mention the amount of plastic used in a hand injector wouldnt make it worth while, MOST not all people who do swimbaits (Flat top type) use big pots(1 gal size and up) with large openings swimbaits also get many different colors poured into them somethign a hand injector can't do. However in certain situations the smaller swimbaits can be injected like the bass trix one. (aside from dipping) and ones that dont have flat tops. however MOST if not all of the smaller injected swimbaits are shot with one color then dipped afterwords. what some guys do is paint them if your into painting swimbaits then there is nothign wrong with injecting a smaller swimbait. for the bass trix style on a production level DIPPING is the way to go, just do to the cost of molds, a knife and a spinner bait blade is a heck of alot cheaper than a mold. we have guys injection skinny dippers, there limited to 1 color 2 colors but they dont produce laminates perfectly due to the shape of the skinny dippers and are not consistant. stick baits injection vs hand pouring. is it faster NO not really unless your really set up for it, either one is going to need molds. we have customers that still use 2-5 gal pots to pour sticks and they produce 1000's a day, the key is the endless supply of plastic and molds and one other person to help you. I have a few customers that use's 20 cavity stick molds in a waffle mold ( meaning the inside plates are stacked and cut on both sides) that shoot stiks one a very high production level. 100 per shot with a $12 suction gun from napa autoparts,if I remember correctly he is shooting 100 baits in about 30-40 seconds from the time he puts the tip to the mold till the time he takes the tip out of the mold. it only takes about 5-10 seconds to shoot it the remainder he has to hold the gun against the mold till the plastic gets semi hard before demolding. he also has to take the baits out fo the mold ie 5 plates off a press onto a table pull the baits etc. However from him to go into hand pouring would be costly just on pots alone and since he has been set-up for the last 15 years using suction guns it was best to keep him like that. the problem with hand injection sticks in one shot is that the Salt and glitter doesnt all mix evenly were as when your pouring with a pot that has a mixer on it its all even. hand injection is great for curl tail baits, twin tail grubs, very fine extremities and stuff like that. however if your looking for speed the answer isnt injection or hand pour its the equipment and the molds you have as if you dont have the right stuff your wasting your time. one warning is with hand injection you will get blowback and its just dribble out of the mold or shoot back a foot when you take that hand injector off the mold. there is a few reasons for this one is mainly do to your pushing too much pressure on the mold and the runner bar(fill tube or what ever you want to call it) is way way to big. the plastic in the cavities hardens up however that big runner is still liquid, you are hold pressure upagainst plastic which is like a rubber band, then when you pull the gun away that rubber band springs back and throws hot plastic out the only opening it can that is still very hot and liquidy ie the runner being way to big which is where you stick your hand injection tip. you would be really surprised how much pressure you can get out of a hand injector that pressure is going to go somewhere. while some won't agree I DONT recommend a hand injector to someone who never poured plastic as its an accident waiting to happen. Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) All good info Del. Del is 100% correct, limiting factor is molds and plastic. You can have a pot or syringe or cup full of plastic but if you don't have the molds for it to go into, it doesn't matter what system you use. I like being able to see my plastic myself. Trying to find my "old" glass syringes I used to inject some resin and plaster of paris molds. Worked super for single colors... Curious, how many cavities do you think a hand injector would do? Guess it would depend on the bait as a trick work type mold might be able to be bigger (more cavities) vs a stick mold as mentioned. I'm not going there but I wonder thwe max you could do with one shot.. A face mask would seem to be a must as well. One small squirt and you could be blind if the plastic finds the right spot. Jim Edited October 8, 2009 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Curious, how many cavities do you think a hand injector would do? Guess it would depend on the bait as a trick work type mold might be able to be bigger (more cavities) vs a stick mold. I'm not going there but I wonder thwe max you could do with one shot.. A face mask would seem to be a must as well. One small squirt and you could be blind if the plastic finds the right spot. Jim using this hand injector which cost $12 and shoots a pint of plastic, last month they were on sale for $8 at Napa they are metal with screw on tops and bottoms and the nozzle size is more than perfect. using them everyday 12hours a day they will last about 2 months, they can also be welded to gether to shoot a quart part number 714-1245 you can get 320 2 inch grubs with left over 50 5in kalin grubs with lots left over of coarse you have to have the multicavity molds for it. and the list goes on. more waste is in the runner then in the baits, its a waste to use a hand injection for more than 17" in lenth as the runner will harden to fast. usually the typical runner is 5/16" - 3/8" round anything more is a waste of plastic and time.having a bigger runner than that size also increases the blow back of HOT plastic by alot. single cavity molds only need a runner of 1/4 inch and should be shot directly into the cavity, 4-10 cavity molds 1/4"-3/8 TOPS.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Thanks Del.... This crap scares me a little but I gotta see what everybody is slobbering themselves over. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Thanks Del.... This crap scares me a little but I gotta see what everybody is slobbering themselves over. Jim it should as its not for everyone.especially BEGINNERS to pouring plastic. If you dont have common sence or always in a hurry its the last thing you want to use. As you know Bobby and I played with these years ago.before you were even around. The only reason I started makeing the hand injection guns was that the ones out now are UNSAFE the tips pop off and plastic goes all over your hand. the laminate guns are extreamly unsafe and clumblsy and don't work half the time due to tips clogging its way to small, I have about a dozen that I reworked for people who bought them. The molds we always had just kept it quiet because people online see these things and think this is the way to go. just like the old janns net craft ones that melt, while the metal doesnt melt when the tip pops off you still get plastic every were. heres a quick tip to make the ones that are currently out SAFE, get a 1/8 drill bit and drill a hole on each side of the injector going through the side of tip as well. then use a nail in the hole as a pin this will keep the tips from popping off and you can do this with a hand drill at home. if your worried about speed in changing tips it doesnt take away anything as the nail will slip in and fall out easliy and the head of the nail will keep it from going through the hole and falling out. Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Sound like a relief valve is needed that points AWAY from the injector might be in order. Figured you and Bob played with these a while ago as I tried it with old glass syringes and pop molds when I first started. Lucky I didn't get burned! You guys probably have seen and done lots. I'd be afraid if I made these things that someone would come back and sue my azz if they got hurt/burned. Heck, I'll probably still give it a run just to say I did it!!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351mustang65 Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) I have never used a injector so I can't say anything for how fast they are or how well they work but I'm hearing some guys saying that hand pouring is hard and you will have to remelt a lot of your pours but with the in injector you will get 99% perfect baits. Well here is what I have to say about that. Hand pouring is easy and I'm no pro but I have only had to remelt maybe 2 or 3 baits out of about 100 the only time I had any trouble pouring was one day it got very windy and I pour outdoors, hand pouring laminates is very easy but I don't know about core shots. Something else I hear a lot is that a hotplate is hard to work with without burning your plastic now I only pour in small batches with lure craft pouring pans and that may have something to do with it but I have not one time burned my plastic. Also hand pouring is a lot cheaper and you can get a lot more molds and supplies for your money. I may try a injector at some point but I'm happy I started with hand pouring! Edited October 8, 2009 by 351mustang65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Sound like a relief valve is needed that points AWAY from the injector might be in order.Figured you and Bob played with these a while ago as I tried it with old glass syringes and pop molds when I first started. Lucky I didn't get burned! You guys probably have seen and done lots. I'd be afraid if I made these things that someone would come back and sue my azz if they got hurt/burned. Heck, I'll probably still give it a run just to say I did it!!! Jim The relief valve however it wont work in whats currently out there and in all honesty wont work even if the hand injector was made for it. heres why. when guys (myself included) do things we do them fast and want results with no waiting. the only relief valve of sorts I was able to come up with is a 1/16" hole at a 45degree angle shooting away from the person. the injector is placed into the mold shot then tilted just a tad The port opening also has to be angled to match a angled injector nozzle. when its tilted lets say down it opens a little air pocket in that drilled hole in the mold allowing pressure to escape. I thought this would be the ticket to cure the problem of back pressure but its now. the plastic will fill that hole sometimes and it has to be picked out and guess what were guys and we don't do that for the most part. I am sure you have seen how we always cut corners being guys like were are. so that shot that one out of the ball park for me. at first it was pretty cool and worked great, my customer liked it but then he got lazy hole got pluged etc and forgot about it. glass works but so does stainless and steel and alum, over the years guys have modified turkey injectors for plastic injection, the stainless ones from your local vet supply place( they are big also, used for horses cattle) and there reasonbly priced and only need some minor modifications if any. The sueing stuff always worries me, from the time that someone expected me to pay 10k cause they left the UNOPENED box on there dinner table and the dog ate the entire stick kit and ended up in the hospitol with major medical bills. I am talking glitter raw plastic and the salt. believe it or not I had 2 of these happen. one just wanted to know what the plastic was and how to get ahold of the manufacturer so they could talk to the vet, the other threatend to sue. these were unopened boxs LMAO. in talking with people in the liability feild there is still something as common sence on the part of the user the manufacture needs to make sure that every possible thing he or she could think of is covered and warn people about it. basically if you know your product has problems your going to get pecker slapped. the other thing is anyone can sue anyone for anything. any mold/plastic manufactures can get sued, Lurecraft can get sued for someone using my mold with there plastic and vise versu id someone got burnt. there is no end to it as stupid people are still breeding to this day. I have never used a injector so I can't say anything for how fast they are or how well they work but I'm hearing some guys saying that hand pouring is hard and you will have to remelt a lot of your pours but with the in injector you will get 99% perfect baits.Well here is what I have to say about that. Hand pouring is easy and I'm no pro but I have only had to remelt maybe 2 or 3 baits out of about 100 the only time I had any trouble pouring was one day it got very windy and I pour outdoors, hand pouring laminates is very easy but I don't know about core shots. Something else I hear a lot is that a hotplate is hard to work with without burning your plastic now I only pour in small batches with lure craft pouring pans and that may have something to do with it but I have not one time burned my plastic. Also hand pouring is a lot cheaper and you can get a lot more molds and supplies for your money. I may try a injector at some point but I'm happy I started with hand pouring! there are many ways to make somethign work. all plastics work baiscally the same all heating sources work basically the same all molds work basically the same. some people just like different ways again its mainly do to guys wanting everything too fast and perfect. did you know the 2nd best way to heat plastic is the way your doing it? you have to stir it more however you will get true brighter colors the plastic will be clearer no matters whos plastic you use etc etc. The best way to heat plastic is in a oven with a even heat source or a heat exchanger like you find on real injection machines. Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Del.... LMAO!!! Did the dog crap stick baits??? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Del, First off, I am just going to say we will have to disagree over which one has the shorter learning curve. I teach the 4th grade fishing class here and have had them pour their own baits and now have had them inject their own baits. We will be injecting baits from now on. If I can have 20 4th graders done injecting baits in 3 hours I am confident that anyone able to make a post on this board can handle it with ease. As far as learning the safety aspect of plastic, that dont cut it either. Plastic is the same temp no matter what way you choose to use it. You can be burned just as easily injecting as hand pouring. As for getting blowback when injecting?? Holy crap!!!!!! Maybe a $12.00 suction gun from Napa isnt the right tool for the job. I would rather hand pour also. No wonder some people are reluctant to try injection. I wouldnt want to either if its gonna spit hot plastic back at me. Thats just plain friggin scary! "its mainly do to guys wanting everything too fast and perfect." Whats wrong with wanting this? If you dont want this I would wonder why. Now just so you dont think I am here to bash everything you said, we do agree on something, Handpouring and injection both have there places. I am not here trying to push just one persons products. I own both Bears molds and Dels molds and am happy with both. I hand pour and inject and hopefully one day my pours will be the quality of Ghost Baits. So even if you choose to inject that dont mean you should not learn to pour. There is so much that can be done with both techniques. But we need to be truthful about these techniques also and not be scaring people away based on false information. Edited October 8, 2009 by MTfishingrods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) Del,First off, I am just going to say we will have to disagree over which one has the shorter learning curve. I teach the 4th grade fishing class here and have had them pour their own baits and now have had them inject their own baits. We will be injecting baits from now on. If I can have 20 4th graders done injecting baits in 3 hours I am confident that anyone able to make a post on this board can handle it with ease. As far as learning the safety aspect of plastic, that dont cut it either. Plastic is the same temp no matter what way you choose to use it. You can be burned just as easily injecting as hand pouring. As for getting blowback when injecting?? Holy crap!!!!!! Maybe a $12.00 suction gun from Napa isnt the right tool for the job. I would rather hand pour also. No wonder some people are reluctant to try injection. I wouldnt want to either if its gonna spit hot plastic back at me. Thats just plain friggin scary! "its mainly do to guys wanting everything too fast and perfect." Whats wrong with wanting this? If you dont want this I would wonder why. Now just so you dont think I am here to bash everything you said, we do agree on something, Handpouring and injection both have there places. I am not here trying to push just one persons products. I own both Bears molds and Dels molds and am happy with both. I hand pour and inject and hopefully one day my pours will be the quality of Ghost Baits. So even if you choose to inject that dont mean you should not learn to pour. There is so much that can be done with both techniques. But we need to be truthful about these techniques also and not be scaring people away based on false information. Read my last post on the injection gun thread blowback hos nothign to do with molds or the guns its more of the process in which it is used. as far as this "its mainly do to guys wanting everything too fast and perfect." Whats wrong with wanting this? If you dont want this I would wonder why. you missed the point I was making, GUYS dont worry about safety they cut corners, which you proved in your post above about having 4th graders use and unsafe process in a classroom, ie air pressure and HOT PLASTIC A women would think twice before doing such a thing., believe it ot not I dont think they would even have to think twice once would be enough for them. Dont get me wrong I let my kids pours with lee hot pots not the safeest thing for them to do, April doesnt like it either. Edited October 8, 2009 by Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 I think were just gonna have to agree to disagree. I guess theres nothing wrong with that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
