Hand injectors?

[GB GONE]

I am curious on a few points guys so here goes:

How quick do the seals in these injectors wear out? If I started using a method like this, I might shoot a gallon a night for several weeks in a row.

How do you "load" the laminate injectors? Are they 2 seperate injectors that you hook together after sucking up your plastic?

How well does the glitter and salt stay suspended if you have to stop, de-mold and restart shooting? Seems this would be more of an issue tahn with hand pouring because you can't re-stir.

I have looked at the teflon aprons closely and I think that would be a good protective device as well for errant plastic.

Thanks for any insight.

Jim

PS Maybe we need a sticky on hand injection do's and dont's like the hand pour one.

[Delw]

for one gallon of plastic a week you wouldnt have to worry about replacing O-rings or cup washers. shoot 55-200 gals a month and o-rings last about 2 months cupwashers last about a month, metal parts last forever.

you want your mold to hold the same amount of plastic you put in your gun, Ie thats why the different sizes, if you have to demold inbetween shots DONT let the plastic stay in the gun or you will have problems and MAJOR safty problems as you will push to hard and you will get blowback like no tomrrow..

its best to keep your gun ALWAYS in the pot of plastic to keep it hot while your workng with it. always refilling between molds

to keep salt and glitter suspended the best way is to always spn the gun once you sucked the plastic into it. until you touch the mold.

they dont work with really heavy salt as it settles way to fast

Edited October 8, 2009 by Delw

[GB GONE]

Thanks Del, your injectors look nice.

Last question is: Can sticks that weigh the same as the GY sticks be shot through the hand injectors or do you have to go lighter on the salt?

Seems the salt would get out of proportion easily unless you have a pot stirring all the time (but I guess you can't do that if the gun has to rest in the pot to stay warm) or do exactly the amount in a cup as you have for your mold(s).

Thanks!!!

Like to hear from all those that use Bear's system as well.

Jim

[Delw]

I will see if I can get these guys that do heavy production to post and the salt issue as I only get the info from them,

I am told that it varies heavy salt will shoot no problem however each cavity will get a different amount of salt and not weigh the exact same.

alot as to do with the size of the mold ie if your shooting longer runs your going to have more deviation in weight, also just like hand pouring the plastic has to be a good temp to suspend the salt as it wll sink the longer it takes the plastic to harden. so its pretty much the same I would guess in that asspect

[MTfishingrods]

I will answer, as im sure others will follow. First on the double injector, yes its two, you suck plastic up into each individual and then connect them into the adapter and inject. As far as how fast the seals wear out? I cant help you there because mine have not wore out yet and have not yet heard of any wearing out on the Bears injectors even by the guys who have shot gallons upon gallons through them. Not saying that they wont wear out, I am just saying that I dont know what that point is. As far as glitter and salt staying suspended, I dont use salt at all, but glitter does stay suspended nicely, however my proceedure is to get the molds ready, suck the plastic, shoot the baits, shoot the remaining plastic back into cup and demold and start over. So there is never any plastic sitting in the injector for glitter to settle in.

Now the big one. As far as blowback from injectors. If your getting blowback from an injector I would toss it in the trash and give up. Thats just plain dangerous!!!! I dont know whats causing that but Its never once happened with mine. In fact I have taken my molds and injectors into a 4th grade class and every student has injected their own baits not even close to having a burn or a close call. My 10 year old son uses my injector and has never burned himself. Obviously gloves and long sleeves, pants, and shoes are requirements as they are with any kind of pouring. But Face mask and teflon aprons are getting a bit carried away. A little bit of common sense can go a long way with these things.

Edited October 8, 2009 by MTfishingrods

[Delw]

I will answer, as im sure others will follow. First on the double injector, yes its two, you suck plastic up into each individual and then connect them into the adapter and inject. As far as how fast the seals wear out? I cant help you there because mine have not wore out yet and have not yet heard of any wearing out on the Bears injectors even by the guys who have shot gallons upon gallons through them. Not saying that they wont wear out, I am just saying that I dont know what that point is. As far as glitter and salt staying suspended, I dont use salt at all, but glitter does stay suspended nicely, however my proceedure is to get the molds ready, suck the plastic, shoot the baits, shoot the remaining plastic back into cup and demold and start over. So there is never any plastic sitting in the injector for glitter to settle in.

Now the big one. As far as blowback from injectors. If your getting blowback from an injector I would toss it in the trash and give up. Thats just plain dangerous!!!! I dont know whats causing that but Its never once happened with mine. In fact I have taken my molds and injectors into a 4th grade class and every student has injected their own baits not even close to having a burn or a close call. My 10 year old son uses my injector and has never burned himself. Obviously gloves and long sleeves, pants, and shoes are requirements as they are with any kind of pouring. But Face mask and teflon aprons are getting a bit carried away. A little bit of common sense can go a long way with these things.

Blow back has nothing to do with a a mold or hand injector being wrong , it has to do with the amount of pressure one pushes on the gun and keeps pushing on the gun ie giving it pressure. perfect example fill a ballon with water and u

it will show up on any and every hand injection and pressure pot injection system, again it could be alot it could be a little bit but EVERY one gets it.

to minimize it and not have it happen as violent, just before pulling the nozzle tip off the mold you should tilt the gun, which most of us do automatically anyhow. as we never have anything square and flush.

Vodkaman I am sure can explain this much better than I as he is an engineer and knows the correct terminology better.

I will say this, your one LUCKY SOB for using that hand injector at a class, there was/is NOTHING to keep the tips/nozzle from popping off. if it did you would have had a nightmare on your hands. the O-ring is the only thing that keeps it from popping out. what some people dont realize is that metal expands and o rings get a little softer with heat which makes the nozzle coming out much eaiser.

Besides I wouldnt think a school would let anyone do that if they did they are dumbass's especially on a 4th grade class. your talking chemicals and extream heat not to mention under pressure..

Delw

[96dak]

obviously you've never used this system yet Del, i have, and i have yet to have any blowback as well, the tips don't come out that easy, and as MT stated, a little COMMON SENSE goes very far. I have yet to hear of anyone getting it as well, if you do, toss it and find another hobby.

I've had mine a few months, and the o-rings are look like new, even after heavy use. these weren't designed by an idiot some will have you think they were

[GB GONE]

As far as glitter and salt staying suspended, I dont use salt at all, but glitter does stay suspended nicely, however my proceedure is to get the molds ready, suck the plastic, shoot the baits, shoot the remaining plastic back into cup and demold and start over. So there is never any plastic sitting in the injector for glitter to settle in.

I don't have an issue with glitter either. Pour out the full cup and you have no problem. Salt is my big question. Sure there has to be some guys out there using salt with the hand injection system with all that use them now. Really want to hear about saltas I might make flukes and would definitely use some. You have to have an even dispersion or the baits will not have proper action. Love to get my hands on a bag of hand injected salted baits to see if there is a noticable difference. May not be...

As far as blowback or a potential failure, it may not have happened yet but it is just a matter of time as the injectors get older with use or sit around and the o-ring breaks down. No one knows the actual time frame of failure on the o-ring that keeps everything together. Repeated heating and cooling plus pressure will eventually cause a failure though. Happens with all devices with time. If I get into this, I will have a time frame to replace that o-ring. That was all my question was based on.

Not 100% sure as I have not read the MSDS on my recent plastic, but I think a face mask/shield is already called for when using.

Thanks for the info Shane.

Jim

[Delw]

Raw raw raw here comes the cheerleaders, were 308 he is running a little late

so I fixed/modified the dozen plus injectors for no reason? darn they could have saved 12 bucks in postage alone. funny cause I told 5+ of these guys to get them from him. as I didnt want to make them.

[GB GONE]

Trying to get info here!!! You guys are going to get the topic locked!!!

How much do you, 96dak and Shane, inject in a week or day? Gallons, cups?

Curious as there does not seem to be anyone really using these in a higher volume situation. Might require several injectors to be rotated during use.

I can go through 5 gallons in a week. That would be a lot of injecting.

Jim

Edited October 9, 2009 by ghostbaits
More info...

[bear21211]

Well I have sat here and Kept my mouth shut so I did not step on nobody's toes but I think I should be entitled to speak my peace here also.

Del Several months ago you were sitting here and on your forum telling people how stupid and dangerous hand injection is and was. How it made no sense to make single cavity molds and there was no point because they were to slow.

How the tides have changed now you have all of a sudden became the GOD of hand injection also. Let me inform you of a few things............

1st question you ask is is our injectors perfectly safe? Heck NO!!

The problem here is that the question you should be asking is Are they safe enough to use with proper methods being taught and training of the people that use them? ABSOLUTELY

I put in 16 to 20 hours a day training our customers on proper use of our products. These injectors are as safe as we feel they need to be. Is a GUN safe if put in a persons hands that have not been properly trained or guided in using it????? NOOOOOOOOO

We feel that education of our customers in the use and handling of our products is what make our products efficient and productive while remaining relatively safe.

We are not telling anyone to go buy a 12.00 suction gun from NAPA to make an injector we built one . We built one that is simple, fast, and efficient that has got in your pocket.and now you want to start this junk about yours is so much better than mine or whatever it is you are trying to prove.

The guy building our injectors and molds has been in the bait industry for 40 years. I have total confidence in the products we offer and the finished products that they produce. We offer as much guidance and training to our customers that we can. Maybe this is something you should try instead of telling everyone how terrible every other product on the market is. Your methods of telling everyone you been doing this for so long and you been in the Aerospace industry for so many years and You have offered injection molds long before Bears Baits is getting old.

Now you come on here and attack MT for bringing them into a school??? Shezzzz I am sure he dropped by the class room and dropped the injectors , molds and plastic and a microwave off to a class of 4th graders and told them he would be back tomorrow to pick it all up and see how many have burned there self!

Called educate your users something you should learn to do instead of attacking your competitors and there products !

You should decide what side of the fence you want to be on and maybe look at your methods and start educating your customers instead of downing what everyone else does.

What gives you the right to come here and call people stupid and tell people that they are stupid for doing things the way they chose?

Any body that has one of our products that is not happy with it or feel it is unsafe for use Please let me know so I can offer you a full refund on it. We do not want anybody wasting there money on our unsafe products!

[GB GONE]

Bear:

Can/will you answer my questions? It is OK if you refer to your injectors even though I am asking in general.

I truely want to know about this stuff before I get started!!!!

Jim

[MTfishingrods]

Actually the only way to get blow back on one of these injectors would be to continue to put pressure on the knob while removing the injector. Once you inject your baits there is no need to apply pressure any more other than for the added few seconds after injecting if you happen to have a dent issue which I havnt seen yet but others have. Once you release the knob all pressure is off on the inside so no possible blow back. Just maybe some dripping as you move from mold to mold.

Jim you go through in a week what I go through in a good month. So I cant give you an honest answer on the O rings. They are rubber, They are getting hot. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I have to say they have a life expectancy. What it is? I just dont know. But I can tell you that when shooting the plastic back into the cup and the tip accidently comes off. Its no big deal. The more you use them the better you get at judging what pressure that tip pops and thats what makes these injectors so fast is being able to pop that off and pop a new one back on. I still say they are safe. The reason why. You dont put pressure on it till its sitting on the mold. Then when you do, we are talking about pressure being slightly more than the weight of your hand. Not actually pushing. It dont take much at all. then pull your hand off and move on. When you shoot your plastic out obviously point it away from you and push it out into your cup or pot then pull the nozzle off. I happen to have 2 nozzles.

Del,

Im not going to argue the fact that you have done whatever you have done to the injectors. But I will say that my injectors work just fine the way they were intended and instructed to work. Thats all i can tell ya.

Shane

[bear21211]

Jim

There is no problem using salt in the injectors with it settling out as our injectors are designed to shoot what molds you have on the table then empty the plastic back into your heat source.

The injectors are not heated therefore you must purge what is left into your heat source. So no there is not an issue with the salt or glitter settling .

[GB GONE]

Thanks!!!! Whew!!!!!!

Jim

[Delw]

Well I have sat here and Kept my mouth shut so I did not step on nobody's toes but I think I should be entitled to speak my peace here also.

Del Several months ago you were sitting here and on your forum telling people how stupid and dangerous hand injection is and was. How it made no sense to make single cavity molds and there was no point because they were to slow.

How the tides have changed now you have all of a sudden became the GOD of hand injection also. Let me inform you of a few things............

No thats not exactly true, and truely out of context I always said they were dangerous and they are in unexperiance people.

1st question you ask is is our injectors perfectly safe? Heck NO!!

The problem here is that the question you should be asking is Are they safe enough to use with proper methods being taught and training of the people that use them? ABSOLUTELY

I put in 16 to 20 hours a day training our customers on proper use of our products. These injectors are as safe as we feel they need to be. Is a GUN safe if put in a persons hands that have not been properly trained or guided in using it????? NOOOOOOOOO

We feel that education of our customers in the use and handling of our products is what make our products efficient and productive while remaining relatively safe.

We are not telling anyone to go buy a 12.00 suction gun from NAPA to make an injector we built one . We built one that is simple, fast, and efficient that has got in your pocket.and now you want to start this junk about yours is so much better than mine or whatever it is you are trying to prove.

you still dont have a clue to what a 12 dollar suction gun is , they have been used for years It was showed to me by customers and there tops don't pop off.

the guy that has 40 years of experiance should have told you this its been used forever this way

The guy building our injectors and molds has been in the bait industry for 40 years. I have total confidence in the products we offer and the finished products that they produce. We offer as much guidance and training to our customers that we can. Maybe this is something you should try instead of telling everyone how terrible every other product on the market is. Your methods of telling everyone you been doing this for so long and you been in the Aerospace industry for so many years and You have offered injection molds long before Bears Baits is getting old.

Really? you asked me about it once on the phone when we were making you an custom mold for you and I told you everythign about it and how its done. along with the presto pots and the pressure pots.

I never once mentioned publically how bad somones products are and that mine are better. yours have a safety flaw on the hand injection I mentioned how to fix it. talk to your customers about it they will tell you, of coarse before you delete there posts so there not visible to the public

Now you come on here and attack MT for bringing them into a school??? Shezzzz I am sure he dropped by the class room and dropped the injectors , molds and plastic and a microwave off to a class of 4th graders and told them he would be back tomorrow to pick it all up and see how many have burned there self!

I didnt attack MT about bringing them to school I stated it wasnt the safeest thing to do and was pretty shocked that a school would let them do it.

Called educate your users something you should learn to do instead of attacking your competitors and there products !

You should decide what side of the fence you want to be on and maybe look at your methods and start educating your customers instead of downing what everyone else does.

What gives you the right to come here and call people stupid and tell people that they are stupid for doing things the way they chose?

Again I dont think I called anyone stupid,

Any body that has one of our products that is not happy with it or feel it is unsafe for use Please let me know so I can offer you a full refund on it. We do not want anybody wasting there money on our unsafe products!

a small fix on your injectors would make them alot safer and keep people from getting hurt or spilling plastic.

never said a word about you molds just the SAFETY ISSUE about that injector with tips coming off ,its a very simple fix your 40 year experianced machinist should have no problem. spinner bait wire bent looks alot nicer than the quick fix with the nail. when he cuts the o-ring grrove on the tips have him put a .050 small goove in it then punch 2 .050 wire holes in the tubing and your done.

[Pitbull Baits]

I don't have an issue with glitter either. Pour out the full cup and you have no problem. Salt is my big question. Sure there has to be some guys out there using salt with the hand injection system with all that use them now. Really want to hear about saltas I might make flukes and would definitely use some. You have to have an even dispersion or the baits will not have proper action. Love to get my hands on a bag of hand injected salted baits to see if there is a noticable difference. May not be...

As far as blowback or a potential failure, it may not have happened yet but it is just a matter of time as the injectors get older with use or sit around and the o-ring breaks down. No one knows the actual time frame of failure on the o-ring that keeps everything together. Repeated heating and cooling plus pressure will eventually cause a failure though. Happens with all devices with time. If I get into this, I will have a time frame to replace that o-ring. That was all my question was based on.

Not 100% sure as I have not read the MSDS on my recent plastic, but I think a face mask/shield is already called for when using.

Thanks for the info Shane.

Jim

I use the injector with salt on my stiks. 99% sink level on the fall. As with any thing that is used in productin type setting should have a little up keep. I clean my injector after every pour ( a batch of a hundred or so). I also keep it oiled up as to help keep the o-ring from cracking.

I am not really seeing the blowback issue. as if the mold splits open and plastic shoots out? clamp it tighter. If the o-ring goes out with plastic in it. Then I would have to say you are pushing to hard. The top is and screwed down and if your pushing the injectour should be on top of the mold. So I am not seeing is how you would get blowback.

[96dak]

Trying to get info here!!! You guys are going to get the topic locked!!!

How much do you, 96dak and Shane, inject in a week or day? Gallons, cups?

Curious as there does not seem to be anyone really using these in a higher volume situation. Might require several injectors to be rotated during use.

I can go through 5 gallons in a week. That would be a lot of injecting.

Jim

ive run 3 gallons in a day with the injector, depends on the orders i get. all you need is a couple extra tips for the injectors.

the only reason you have modified any of bears injectors del, is because you were able to con the poor helpless saps that didnt fully read the printed instructions on how to use the injectors into thinking they needed to pay you to modify the injector

Edited October 9, 2009 by 96dak

[Pitbull Baits]

I have ran about 5 gallons in two days. Not one problem with the injector. I have made about 7,000 plus shots with it since I have had it.

[tylerd1994]

Same here I have never had issues with the injector. No blowbacks, or worn out O rings. Its simple and the pop-out nozzle is awesome. I don't know how you could pour hot plastic all over you and your workplace with it. Most of the time the plastic is cooled by the time you pop it out.

[drof99]

Hey Jim you opened up a can of worms here. I have a Bearsbaits injector. I use the medium one. I do not pour anywhere near the volume you do. I just make mine for personal use. I pour senkos with 1/4 cup of salt to one cup of plastic. Many times I pour more than that at one time. I use a presto pot for heating the plastic and keeping things mixed well. The salt and glitter seems to stayed mixed up well for me. I run the pot and then get all my molds clamped and ready to pour. Shut off the stirring unit and suck the plastic into the injector. Then I shoot all my molds and put any remaining plastic back in the pot. My injector will do several molds depending on size. I'd think with a couple of the large injectors you could really get some volume done. You'd just need to be sure and have enough molds. After shooting just turn your stirrer back on while you demold. I believe doing it this way keeps the salt and flake mixed well. Bear sell special o rings for his injectors on his site. They are only around $8 for a bag. I have personally put over 5 gallons of plastic through the orginal o ring and see now signs of wear on it at all. You mentioned that you wanted to get your hands on some injected baits. I could send you some if you like. I'm not the best pourer by any stretch of the imagination but can get great looking baits. Oh, I forgot to mention when I'm injecting heavy salt I do turn the heat up just a little over 350 for injecting. It just seems to give me a little less trouble. If you'd like to pm me your address I'd be happy to send you a few samples. Just don't make fun of my color.

[golfador]

Trying to get info here!!! You guys are going to get the topic locked!!!

How much do you, 96dak and Shane, inject in a week or day? Gallons, cups?

Curious as there does not seem to be anyone really using these in a higher volume situation. Might require several injectors to be rotated during use.

I can go through 5 gallons in a week. That would be a lot of injecting.

Jim

Hey Jim,

I inject between 5 and 10 gallons per week. I have several of Bear's injectors in different sizes. I also use 6 different pots and own 60 or so injection molds. I have a large injector that I use when I am going to do a constant stream of 200 or more of one type of bait. The reason I have more than one injector is so I can inject 3 or even 4 colors at one time between molds cooling. It sounds like you and I are running the same sort of volume. I have ran over 100 gallons through my injectors and molds and have not had a single incident. the safety issue that some are claiming does not exist in my opinion.

I can speak to the customer service with Bear and it is top notch. I have had no dealings with Del so I have no idea what his is like. But Del appears to have good stuff as well.

any questions feel free to email me at bobby@keenomfishing.com. I am a voice of reason, trust me

[Zbass]

The only injection system I can talk about is the one that I use. I have every size and model that is offered by bearbaits. The only safety issues that I have had are due to MY ignorance, not the design. As I have said before, there is a learning curve to these, as with anything. The way I see it, if you have a ton of plastic left over in the injector, then you need more molds or a smaller injector. The only one that I leave in the plastic to stay warm is the tips of the 2 color injector. That is only because the tips are small and cool fast. Other than that, I shoot all of the plastic in the injector into the molds or back in the pot.

On the tips coming off. If people are having the tips come off, then they are not paying attention or pushing way too hard. The tips on mine only come off when I want them to. a little common sense goes a long way. It's not brain surgery.

As far as the salt goes, it suspends just fine if you fill the mold and purge the remainder back into the pot or pan, where it can be stirred.

That is as politley as I can put it without anyone feeling like they are being attacked or put down. Hope I don't get called a cheerleader too. Jim was asking for bears customers to chime in and then they get bashed because they do. Dont quite get that one myself.

[Coosa Redeye]

I too use Bear's injector and molds. I have the small injector, because I am just starting out. I JUST STARTED INJECTING 2WEEKS AGO, and I have had ZERO safety issues. Bear provides excellent instructions and customer service. As some have already said, a little common sense goes a long way.

The removable tip is awesome. It comes out when I want it to and no time else. There is no safety issue unless the user is an idiot. Just my

[bear21211]

The answer here is to educate your users. Plain and simple, I do not care who you are and who you buy from, or what method you use, if you do not know the dangers involved when dealing with hot plastic you are asking for trouble. The molds we make require less than 2 psi to work efficiently. You start dealing with bigger injection molds 10 to 300 cavity molds as you claim to be making and then you start having more issues because you have to have a lot higher pressure to inject that many cavity's. Then you also have all the rejects that come with multi cavity molds in that range. Even a Zorn machine can and will give 15% rejects. These single cavity molds give less than 1% . Maybe you are not comfortable with the injection system you are using but I am totally comfortable with the system we sell.

Really? you asked me about it once on the phone when we were making you an custom mold for you and I told you everythign about it and how its done. along with the presto pots and the pressure pots.

You must have me confused with someone else. You have never been asked by me or made me a custom mold Period.