GB GONE Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 any questions feel free to email me at bobby@keenomfishing.com. I am a voice of reason, trust me Thank you!!! Can I ask after looking at your pictures, do the injectors produce curled flake in a lot of baits? I see the green and blue seem to be curled in most bait photos. Does the plastic have to shoot at a higher heat or is that a result of possible bad flake? Just trying to cover my bases and get honest info. I do not like to send out baits with curled flake. Thjanks again for the info and your email. I have a few other questions that I will ask via email tomorrow. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfador Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 The baits can be shot at a lower heat actually. From time to time I get caried away and let larger batches get a little too hot. Some are curled but not as bad as some of the bigger companies put out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delw Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 before this thread got into a cheerleading session, what I was trying to explain is that the tips/nozzles pop off at times. this is dangerous and can be fixed extreamly easy with NO major time factors in shooting and changing tips. when you have any type of suction gun that is held toegther with only and O-Ring and nothing else it will slide out. with just a little amount of pressure. With a pin , slide lock, threads etc this will make sure you DONT have a problem with the nozzles popping off. thats my major concern and should be of any one manufacturing them. As far as blowback, its been explained, Vodkaman could explain it better. that will happen at any pressure to a certain degree, when your dealing with pressure and something elastic there are ways to minimize it. a suction gun is what Bear, Bobby Napa janns netcraft have, you use suction to suck up plastic then you apply pressure through a handle to FORCE the plastic into a mold. FORCE meaning any PSI other than gravity feed. Bears Bobby's and Napa are all metal janns is a plastic one Napa has threads on the outside of the nozzle to keep it from comming off. Granted it wasn't intened for hot plastic but it is NO different than the other metal ones Meaning its is and will do the exact same thing as the others only SAFER as the nozzle is held on by threads.. for some reason a few people have the suction gun and $12 being a cheap unuseable system for hand injection.mainly cause its cost only 12 bucks. however they are exactly the SAME. the reason they are cheap in price is cause they are made in quanity. when you get things made at a machine shop or any manufacturing place the price depends on quanity it will cost more than whats made in large quanities. Now would you shoot a 1 cavity 5 cavity mold with a suction gun heck no as your just wasting plastic thats the reason for 2 4 6 8 oz suction guns. just like you wouldnt shoot a 20 cavity mold with a 2oz suction gun basically the same aplies. of course you want to use safety equipment when using injection or any hot sticky liquids, thats a given however you also want the stuff to be as safe as possible when using it. there is nothing to keep that tip/nozzle from popping out other than pressure.holding a nozzle/tip by o-ring pressure only is simply NOT safe , what about the guys that pops the nozzle in and out x amount of times over time o-rings wear out metal especially aluminum wears out from the rubbing one reason why lots of alum parts are anodized is to keep the wear down, not to make them pretty. its needs to have some sort of fail safe device so IF that did happen and it HAS as some of you guys know it has, hot plastic wont pour all over someone wether they have glooves aprons face masks etc, cause there will always be that ONE time when someone will be in a hurry or not paying attention, most everyone who has burned themselves me included have made a stupid mistake cause we were in a hurry. some of you guys also misread my post to Jim about O-rings wearing out, basically its never for most guys besides it cost a whopping 25 cents if that to replace a o-ring I NEVER said that IN a Bad way at all. As far as kids and injecting hot plastic NOT me, pyrex NOT me out of a pot I dont have a problem with it but I know people that give me crap about it. I let my kids run a cnc machine the salemen have a stroke My parents freak out about it however these kids have been around them there entire lives including my 19 year old. they know the safety of them. one machine has NO door off switchs(didnt come equiped with them) on the other machine I shut the parameter off so I can run it with out having to stop the machine when setting up. when the kids are in the shop I turn the one machine off and the other machine gets the parmeter back on. Why? my kids know not to open the door and never have but what if? what if I was on the phone and the kid went and opened the door? chances are nothing maybe a minor injury chips hitting them coolant etc. or it could be major like a hand cut off or smashed loss of an eye etc etc.if you dont think it can happen there are many documented instance were people got killed or badley hurt, I have seen a few of them from arms beig ripped off to hands being sliced open, accidents happen no matter how safe and how much protection or education you have. Delw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfador Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well said. Some people could cut their self with a cotton ball. How about everyone just let this thread die and I will answer Jim's questions by email? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfollmer Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I don't think we should let this die. I'd like to learn about this also... I think people need to keep the arguments out of the thread... I have used no one's products yet, so I can't say anything positive or negative about them, but everyone that has been bashing Bear's products seem to say the same thing - 'people being careless' Obviously, if the thing works ok for x amount of people, there isn't a problem with it. I'm sure there is a flaw in everyones system, nothing can be made perfect. Now let's all just get along and everyone keep on makin' some awesome baits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfador Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 there seem to be 2 sides to this argument and you are going to get a different answer from each. I would suggest contacting each vendor personally and figuring out the best way. All you are going to get here is the same old Ford is better than Chevy argument unless the 2 vendors agree stay out of it. I would be happy to answer any questions you have. Email me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 If we would focus on the process and leave the personal attacks out things would be great! Doesn't seem that is possible with some hear. I asked valid questions and now my other posts are being hijacked and I am personally being attacked. Lets talk about making baits or is there nothing but jabs to be offered? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golfador Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Jim, you glasses are ugly....LOL:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 TRUE!!! You should see the BIG white ones I wear on tournament day!!!! Love coming in with 22lbs and funky white glasses, flowered board shorts and my tourney shirt!! Guys don't know what to think but have to respect you for your sack of fish!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artificial All The Way Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 WOW! Thanks for waking me up in this boring meeting I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Question: How quick do the seals in these injectors wear out? If I started using a method like this, I might shoot a gallon a night for several weeks in a row. Answer: Jim they hold up very well. They are designed to handle the high heat that they are exposed to. I know several that have ran a couple hundred gallons through there injectors and they still have not had an issue with them. We have the replacement O-rings and Have sold 1 Bag to a gentleman that lives in COLD country and keeps his injectors laying on a griddle to keep them warm between use. I do not think he has changed one as of yet though. Question: How do you "load" the laminate injectors? Are they 2 seperate injectors that you hook together after sucking up your plastic? Answer: They are 2 separate Injectors yes.They load the same as the single Injectors. The process we try to suggest is to load one Injector and leave it in the heat source you loaded it from while loading the second Injector. Remove both Injectors at the same time and put into the sprue adapter on the mold. Shoot your molds and what is left purge back into your heat source. There is videos of doing it posted . These are not made for production but geared more for the guys that are not in a hurry and want to make something different. Question:How well does the glitter and salt stay suspended if you have to stop, de-mold and restart shooting? Seems this would be more of an issue tahn with hand pouring because you can't re-stir. Answer: The salt and the glitter stays suspended very vell. You are only talking seconds that the plastic is in the Injector. They are not designed to shoot the molds and sit on the side or back into your heat source. They are designed to shoot your molds and then purge the remaining back into the heat source. Once you demold you start over. Statment: I have looked at the teflon aprons closely and I think that would be a good protective device as well for errant plastic. Reply: I will never tell anyone they can use to much safety equipment or practice to much safety using any form of hot plastic. I wear a Denim apron when I work in my shop. I also wear safety glasses and long pants with enclosed shoes. When I am using the hot plastics regardless of what method I use I wear gloves. What ever makes you feel the most comfortable is what I recommend. Statement: Maybe we need a sticky on hand injection do's and dont's like the hand pour one. Reply: That is fine by me I like educating people on what we do. As long as it does not turn into a whos method is better that would be an asset to all of us. Simple fact....Using hot plastic in an unsafe manor is dangerous. We are supposed to be here to guide our customers in the products we use. I feel we do that to the best of our ability. We design our products around being safe, user friendly and productive. Then we do our best in educating our users in using our products. When we built our origianl Injector it had a screw in nozzle. Yes it was more safe then the push in nozzle but our customers did not like them. They were to slow. We made some changes and came up with the push in nozzle. If you use the Injector as we recommend then you will not have any problems. There is no reason that a nozzle will come off of the injector if it is used properly. The handle on the injector should not be pushed on until the nozzle is seated fully into the sprue. They do not take a lot of excessive force to use. It is a simple process once the injector is seated into the sprue all you have to do is put your hand on the plunger and let the weight of your hand assist the plastic into the cavity. You DO NOT HAVE TO PUSH ! Once the cavity is filled remove hand from plunger,reach down with a gloved hand and grab the nozzle and lift out of the sprue. move on to next mold. Once all of your molds are shot purge the remaining plastic back into your heat source. Then you can push the nozzle off of the injector for easy cleaning and then after it is cleaned reinstall it onto the Injector. It is safe and simple. If you make it difficult then you will probably have issues. Is it for everyone ? NO . It does take some change of your methods and I will tell anyone that if you like hand pouring and are satisfied with the products that you are making then please stick to what you have mastered and are comfortable with. This is an alternative method that some use . It Allows us to make baits with thinner appendages in a very timely fashion. It allows us to make perfect baits 99% of the ones we make. It allows the beginner the satisfaction of succeding his 1st time trying to make a bait. It is not frustrating to new users because they fail there 1st time. Hand Injection has its limitations and it has its pros. Is it right for you? That is for you to decide. They are safe if used properly. They do some awesome work if you dedicate the time to learn how to do it. They flat out produce a bunch of baits in a short time. They are not any more expensive than hand pour molds per cavity on most molds. They are fun and they allow new people to make great baits that are the quality of what the big guys make. Thanks Bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well said! Thank you for the pertinent information! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piscivorous Pike Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) There is an important parameter to all the injectors that has not been discussed, the operational pressures that is the key to their success, failures and safety. It opens other operational considerations to know this. How much pressure is necessary to fill the mold with plastics, and then with the additives? I saw this addressed only once, above. What are the operational pressures of hand injectors? Does it vary on a particular mold by using additives? One post stated it was low, 2 psi, that is 2 psi over the ambient atmospheric pressure. Different mold requirements also influence the pressure requirement. Not being a machinist I have had no opportunity to build specific use injector but I have played around with converting different plunger operated devices and plumbing parts. I over pressured and caused a minor blow out once, OUCH! A blow out is not possible if your injection pressure is equal to or less than the ambient atmospheric pressure. You certainly can spill and get a leak but for a hobbyist a negative pressure system may be safer. It is easier to achieve in a DIY home brew situation. Vodkaman stepped out of the paradigm of using positive pressure injection and has pointed out there is an alternative by using the ambient atmospheric pressure as the positive pressure for driving the plastic into molds. Vacuum or negative head pressure molding certainly is momentarily slower but easier to achieve for a DIY 'er and safer. It can be done with POP, DWP, RTV molds as well as machined molds, they just must be 2 piece. Multi-cavities can be done too. Experiments I have done are promising, if the pressure necessary to fill the molds is by an educated guess 13 psi or less this system can work using air-conditioning vacuum pumps or even high volume and pressure vacuum cleaners. Using a vacuum cleaner and a mold with a vacuum manifold that by holding a finger over a port opens or closes the vacuum to the cavities. Individual cavities are addressed by plugging all with a chunk of plastic before molding. Removing the plug allows access to a single cavity, closing the manifold directs the airflow through that cavity. This process means only one cavity at a time is connected to the airflow and allow the flow to be instantly shut off by taking the finger off the manifold port. One cavity at a time keeps from sucking the liquid plastic into the vents and also requires less of a vacuum source than running all cavities negative at the same time. Edited October 9, 2009 by Piscivorous Pike key board not working Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maltrout Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I just got Bear's medium injector about a month ago and it works great for me. I used Janns injector before with disastrous results and I was very happy to see how well Bears injector works. I really like how the molds inject very easily without much pressure at all. Injecting baits is obviously a little more hazardous than pouring but even so most of the accidents occur from doing something stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTfishingrods Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 PP, I did receive your email, just hadnt had a chance to respond yet and was letting this die down. We will hook up on your way through here. Should probably even shoot a few baits maybe. I think you would like to see this thing actually work and use it for yourself. But there again, Vacuum injection is one more way of doing things. Nothing wrong with that at all. I have several vacuum pumps still from my HVAC days so I may give that a shot sometime when I find something that dont quite inject right. Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Pike I can not be exact on the pressure needed to inject each mold. I can say this everything is a variable in using this process. Amount of Salt, Glitter, Plastic Temp, Mold Temp. They all vary on every pour. Then you add to the fact the amount of cavity's that are in a mold and who knows what the exact pressure that is required. I do not for sure. Most of our molds are single cavity and we get people asking why.............Here is our reasoning behind why. Single cavity require very little pressure to inject. Salt Glitter all seem to disperse evenly. Speed to de mold bait is much faster. More dead aluminum in mold to allow to disperse heat faster less rejects in baits produced with more consistent results. ease of use we like the hinged design. The more cavity's you put in a mold the more pressure required to get it where it has to be. Add salt and glitter to the equation and now you require much more pressure. We do not want anyone hurt and do not feel that the BIG LARGE molds are the ones we want to produce. We want guys to be able to make great baits have fun doing it without getting hurt. If you need to have molds that have 30 to 300 cavity's then I would suggest you move up to a safer system like a FULL BLOWN Injection Machine. Our molds that we make do not require very much pressure to fill them. They are small scale to prevent us from having to use pressure amounts that we should be concerned about. I am not a scientist and can not answer all of your questions with text book answers but I can tell you the amount of pressure required to use the molds we produce is probably less than 2 psi on any mold we have. Maybe someone with more smarts than I have can answer this better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piscivorous Pike Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 I am learning, keep it coming. Yes, single mold makes sense, in the vacuum models I have played with that is what I am pointing out. Multi- cavity but each is poured seperate, one at a time. Finish one and move on to the next. Looks like a 4 cavity but injects as 4 singles. I am looking forward even more to going home, MT, now. Bet I learn a thing or two about great fishing rods too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcl58 Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 when i shoot test lures, i use a stainless steel turkey baser injector. it holds a bout 6-8 ounces. i spray pam vegetable oil in the tube to keep the o-ring oiled. i have two that i have been using now for four years. both are still working. if the seringe injector brakes like one of mine did, just purchase 1/4" all thread and replace the handle. for as dual injection, (tails only) make a mold that has 50-tails and shoot it and then place those tails in the shooting mold works great for paddle tails and tout tails. down south you can buy them in academy sporting good stores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Guys this has made for interesting reading. The first thing I'd like to say is LET'S PLAY NICE. I just don't want to hear, "I'm gonna take my ball and go home". All jokes aside, it's a good idea to use the Viton O-rings. This is what's used in high production injection machines. This is made of a chemical resistant material that will withstand temperatures from -15 degrees F to 400 degrees F. In a hand injector they ought to almost last forever. The old injection valves I had on the machine used two o-rings. Some of our larger baits we run we actually do crank it up to 400 degrees F, and they hold up fairly well. Even with the high production use that we put them through, most of the time they would last a couple of months before I would have to change them, and we're talking thousands of cycles in 2 months time. So you should be able to avoid o-ring wear. As far as flashing goes, I still use the pressure pot I made as a sample shooter for single cavity molds and have had to use up to 15 lbs of pressure for one or two of the complicated molds. If a single cavity mold is clamped tight enough, with normal pushing pressure on a hand injector, there really shouldn't be any flashing, unless you're really bearing down on it. I shoot a lot of prototypes for samples, and in small molds flashing shouldn't be a problem. Guys, any of us that has been doing this for any amount of time should surely have common sense and awareness of hot pressurized soft plastic. Any application no matter who makes it or sells it, should be done very carefully. Of course accidents are going to happen, just use common sense and take precautions. I think if we know of a problem or have a concern about any product that's sold by a TU member, let's be kind enough to PM about the problem and not discuss it openly. Guys remember this is the plastic business. Knock offs, re-do's, and badmouthing seems to be the norm, no matter where I go in this business. TU's about helping each other out, let's leave this for the PM department. Share the love, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piscivorous Pike Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) This question likely best answered by Del and Bear. I noticed a reference to the NAPA injector and found it on a vendors site mentioned as the injector. I tried it and others here: http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/soft-plastics/17046-5-plastic-injector.html this post kinda outlines my education and experiments with injectors. They were not the best. Wrong tool for the job so now I am looking at injectors specific for the job. No turkey injector but the 4 0z Weston metal injector is tempting at $15. I usually use 4 oz at a time as that is all I can handle. I tried the vacuum gun and its size made using 4 oz unweildy. The plastic lost heat so fast to that much metal. My question, I am obviously typically using 4 oz but if I got a 6 or 8 oz injector would I being facing the same dissappointment using those higher capacity injectors not fillled, same problems with them as the NAPA? That being said why would the injectors be better than the Weston injector. What is the difference? Thanks for considering these questions, they kinda put you on a spot. I guess I am just inquisitive. Edited October 11, 2009 by Piscivorous Pike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Prager Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 I do not think it is fair nor the place to have suppliers/vendors explain their products on TU. It puts them on the spot and ends up getting personal and nasty again. Each have their own web sites, forums and customer support areas. If I have a question or concern about a specific product I contact that individual. I know I've had enough drama to last til the end of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 I do not think it is neither fair nor the place to have suppliers/vendors explain their products on TU. It puts them on the spot and ends up getting personal and nasty again. Each has their own web sites, forums and customer support areas. If I have a question or concern about a specific product I contact that individual. I know I've had enough:bull: drama to last til the end of the year. Well said I hate like hell when someone over here starts a rant about a product without giving that vendor a chance to explain/correct the problem if one really exists in a PM. Can't tell ya how many times the "problem" was that of the user, as stated these vendors have areas where you can ask first, then if you feel that you didn't get a worthy response then you can ask the publics opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Pike Every job has a proper tool.You want your injector to fit the project at hand. If you have 1 mold that holds 1/4 oz of plastic that requires an injector, then you will not need to use an 8 oz Injector. These are not heated and the plastic is going to cool in them. Next week you may end up with 20 molds that require an Injector now you could use a larger Injector. As far as things that should work that you mentioned like the Westin Injector, Personally I have better luck sticking to things that are designed for the task at hand. I normally end up spending more money on stuff that does not work and get frustrated then in the end buy the proper tool for the job. The cooking Injectors I have found are not the right tool for the job . They do not come apart to clean well, they have tiny holes in the end, I doubt they have high heat o-rings and the couple we tried did not seem to like heat and got a little soft with the molten plastic in them.The safety aspect also comes into play. When messing with these experimental tools please make sure you have all of your safety gear in place. I am sure there is plenty of things that will get you buy for a while but I doubt they are as efficient as a proper tool made for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear21211 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well said I hate like hell when someone over here starts a rant about a product without giving that vendor a chance to explain/correct the problem if one really exists in a PM. Can't tell ya how many times the "problem" was that of the user, as stated these vendors have areas where you can ask first, then if you feel that you didn't get a worthy response then you can ask the publics opinion. I do not mind answering questions about the method. I think they can inform people to the correct and safest procedures. But you are correct these type questions normally end up being a debate about who's are best. And why you should buy mine over some other product. I am done defending my products in open forums. 1st off it does not look very professional for any vendor to have to defend there products. There is good and bad with all products. 2nd it causes people to get there blood boiling and none of it is anything other than I want to sell you my product and they want to sell you theirs . Like you stated there are proper places to ask questions about the vendors product rather than coming to an open forum and getting arguments started. Thanks Guys Bear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
