Hand injectors?

[carolinamike]

Like I said, leave the arguing and heated discussions for the PM department. Bear's injectors seem to be kind of a new product that a lot of people are interested in. If you have concerns with safety and need instructions on how to use the product, then by all means you should privately talk to the vendor, be it by phone or PM. It's not right for any vendor or member, that is a member of TU, to publicly bash or try to pin down the other one. TU's about giving and receiving help, not about selling products. That's what Jerry was kind enough to put the classified section in for. All products in the plastic industry end up getting improved on. The way this is usually done is someone uses a product and is somewhat satisfied with the performance but figures out a little bit better way to make it work. It's things like this that should be posted and done in a way as not to badmouth a product but to say, "Hey this is what you can do to make it a little better." Whether it's an injector, a mold, a pouring pot, or a color. All bashing does is make the moderators have to work harder. I have received and given advice now for awhile now on TU. I've noticed that most arguments like this usually end up between two vendors selling similar products. The bottom line for the vendors is CUSTOMER SERVICE. If you figure out a better way, then contact the vendor privately, he could agree and you could actually help put a better product on the market. Hand injectors have always been a touchy subject. For my hand injections I use an old pressure pot. And man, I know how those things get bashed. But I've made so many safety improvments on mine that I think it's a fine instrument of destruction. But I'll guarantee that there's people on here that will tell you it's a bomb waiting to go off. Another thing is a lot of people profit off of TU, through sales and free plugs. If you're going to bash somebody else's product and you decide you just have to publicly bash it, you need to sit back and think about what TACKLE UNDERGROUND has done for you! And figure out if it's fair to TU before you make the post. Remember, the vendors aren't the main ones that need help, it's the members. Just one redneck's opinion.

carolinamike

[Piscivorous Pike]

Post #46 asks nothing about individual injectors or products nor for comparisons, frankly I could not care any less about their individual virtues, I am pretty neutral; that the off topic argument underlying this thread has jumped the track and diverted exactly from what I asked:

...I usually use 4 oz at a time as that is all I can handle. I tried the vacuum gun and its size made using 4 oz unweildy. The plastic lost heat so fast to that much metal.

My question, I am obviously typically using 4 oz but if I got a 6 or 8 oz injector would I being facing the same dissappointment using those higher capacity injectors not fillled, same problems with them as the NAPA?

That being said why would the injectors be better than the Weston injector. What is the difference?

Thanks for considering these questions, they kinda put you on a spot. I guess I am just inquisitive.

Rephrase: Does using an injector that is typically larger capacity than what you pour going to be a pain in the neck?

An as far as the Weston, Bear answered the technical stuff about it. So that does leave only two manufacturers to choose from, but not on this thread will I go there.

When you jump all over the board and don't read or understand what is written it leaves you open for rude comments about your heritage or education. I repect you guys better than that and agree to what you are saying but if you are implying I asked the Del and Bear to go at it about their products, read again please. Both those gentlemen have helped me and communicated with me and I have mutual respect for each of them and will not got where some people are taking this thread, stay focused. Yes my dollars are supporting several of the vendors hear and if I don't blow this group off maybe a few more vendors too will see some of my conspicuous consumption!

Actually if you all can tell me more about over capacity in using injectors I realy salute you for helping a hobbyist. .

[Delw]

Mike No one was bashing anyone in this thread when it first started NO names were mentioned and NO products were mentioned. just injection in general as that was the question asked and the answer given.

it got bad when the cheerleaders decided to start in. then the thread got turned into a cluster **&* .

they got specific so I gave them Specific answers. THEY ASSUMED I was talking about a specific product when in fact I wasn't, as blow black has NOTHING to do with someones product, it has to do with the process of pressure ,cooling and,elasticity.

you have used pressure pots and perhaps suctions guns/hand injectors in the past, years ago like alot of others have, you and they know what blowback is.

Delw

[Vodkaman]

Everything you ever wanted to know about injection molding is in this thread. This thread is going to be a point of reference in the future, every time this question comes up. It is just a pity that anyone looking for useful information in the future, is going to have to sift through so much junk.

Ideally, once the thread dies, a moderator would remove all the junk and make the thread a sticky, as injection is a hot topic. But I guess that goes against the principles of forums. Pity, we could do with a sticky on injection methods and aspects of safety etc, but this thread isn't it.

Dave

[bear21211]

I will agree with you Mike. That is why I said I will not debate anyone about our products on here anymore. I feel it just shows a lot about our business. It is not all about the money to us, We are more concerned our customers are happy and have good products at there disposal.

Pike

Using an over sized injector will result in a lot of reheating of your plastic. It seems to me that the medium sized Injector we make has been our best seller. it will hold enough plastic to shoot a 5 cavity stik mold or 5 - 7.5" u-tail worms. When you are done there is a little plastic left in the injector which we just purge back into the heat source. The Injectors are not made to load and let stand, they are not heated. You know your needs and how many molds you plan on using the injector on. I would recommend keeping the size as close to what you will consume on each fill.

[Piscivorous Pike]

I will agree with you Mike. That is why I said I will not debate anyone about our products on here anymore. I feel it just shows a lot about our business. It is not all about the money to us, We are more concerned our customers are happy and have good products at there disposal.

Pike

Using an over sized injector will result in a lot of reheating of your plastic. It seems to me that the medium sized Injector we make has been our best seller. it will hold enough plastic to shoot a 5 cavity stik mold or 5 - 7.5" u-tail worms. When you are done there is a little plastic left in the injector which we just purge back into the heat source. The Injectors are not made to load and let stand, they are not heated. You know your needs and how many molds you plan on using the injector on. I would recommend keeping the size as close to what you will consume on each fill.

It is beginning to make sense, I thank you and Del on your responses.

I thought you could load the injector short, put in less than they hold and have an airspace, from what I am reading and trying to learn from old posts looks like you should fill an injector 100% and shoot back the unused.

That like you said would result in reheating the plastic. So if I anticipate that I have a project that as some time uses the most I will use and I get that size injector then to mold my standard shares up I should increase the number of molds I shoot and shoot it all each time. Making my own POP molds it is doable.

That is what I understand now.

[carolinamike]

Delw,

I agree with you 100%. In my opinion, which was what my last post was about, was just that, my opinion, and meant for the cheerleaders, vendors and everybody else to read. Nothing personal towards anybody. If I could help you as well as Bear on anything or anybody else for that matter, I'd be glad to. But just in the last little while I've noticed a couple of threads besides this one, kind of veering off to the bad. I'd just like to see TU as a pure thing(to be able to set competition and arguments to the side), and stick to really helping with solutions to problems that plastic luremakers have. I've seen the video of the hand injector doing the core shot bait and have to admit I'm very impressed, but with any piece of equipment, be it injector or chain saw, training and knowledge are a must. The main thing I like is people are actually seeing for themselves that the injection process has nothing to do with the integrity of the bait. It's more what components are used and how much care is put into the actual production. Delw I logon daily to TU and am impressed and surprised everyday with all the new things that come up. I haven't posted a whole lot here lately, we've really been busy. I just don't want to see TU turn into some of the same things that other fishing forums have. Take the great ring worm war of Texas for instance. There's just so many people gotten bad and hurt feelings and now a lot of people are mad at each other, I just don't want that to happen here. Everybody just seems to get along so well and somebody's always willing to help out. Again, this was just an opinion in general and not aimed at anyone.

Your friend,

carolinamike

[Bountiful Waters]

I have tried to keep up on this thread and I think, from a observers stand point, that there is basically a new movement happening. This section has normally been about "hand pouring" plastics. I do not believe that the hand injectors fall into the hand pouring category. Hand made yes, hand pouring no. It looks to me like a culture change if anything. Obviously hand injectors cannot do what a hand pour approach is capable of, but on the same note, I think there is a place for the hand injectors. Basically a bridge is being put in place between the garage type hand made injectors and the high production, high volume injection. I think there is a very distinct difference in concept and that there is a place for both. I congratulate Bear for fostering this movement. I think a guy can do both, depending the the need. I think there is an underlying distaste from some hand pour guys concerning this new culture as it seems to cheapen what the old school hand pour guys think of the art. I have done some soul searching and can honestly say, I see no reason why both hand injection and hand pour cannot coexist.

[Piscivorous Pike]

I have tried to keep up on this thread and I think, from a observers stand point, that there is basically a new movement happening. This section has normally been about "hand pouring" plastics. I do not believe that the hand injectors fall into the hand pouring category. Hand made yes, hand pouring no. It looks to me like a culture change if anything. Obviously hand injectors cannot do what a hand pour approach is capable of, but on the same note, I think there is a place for the hand injectors. Basically a bridge is being put in place between the garage type hand made injectors and the high production, high volume injection. I think there is a very distinct difference in concept and that there is a place for both. I congratulate Bear for fostering this movement. I think a guy can do both, depending the the need. I think there is an underlying distaste from some hand pour guys concerning this new culture as it seems to cheapen what the old school hand pour guys think of the art. I have done some soul searching and can honestly say, I see no reason why both hand injection and hand pour cannot coexist.

I agree with you as I am not about production. I am about hand making a custom lure to fit specific fishing conditions. The hand inector solves a big problem with my favorite approach to the jerk bait, that is a narrow tail shank. I cannot had pour it, it is too small in either one or two piece molds. The small hand injector is a tool to get a variation of hand made baits that cannot be poured.

Still a hand made custom lure.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Piscivorous Pike
always typos

[bear21211]

Thank you Bountiful Waters.

When my mold guy 1st sent me my order I was very upset with him. I loaded it all in the truck drove 10 hours to deliver it back to him. I had no desire to use these products much less attempt to sell them. He looked at me and asked me if I tried them , which I had not. He then proceeded in showing me the process and I was WOWED. That is how this whole mess got started.

Is it a hand pour ummmm well I suppose that depends on what is called a hand pour. I personally feel a true hand poured bait is done with a one piece mold like so many of the masters here do. And I am sure others have a different opinion of what a Hand Poured bait is.

I will stick with calling these hand Injected baits as I am not ashamed of the products they produce and that is what it is. Are they less quality baits than what a so called hand pour 2 piece mold is. No they are not. The advantages to using hand injection versus hand pouring is several. 1. Thin appendages, this is what sold me on it. I like baits with thin appendages. To me the action of a thin appendage on most baits can not be beat. 2. Ease of Use This method is simple you will have a 99% success rate or better 3. Speed The time it takes to make your baits has been drastically reduced.

4. Clean up , The clean up of the Injectors to switch to another color is very fast and easy.

5. Laminates on most molds. It is awesome to be able to do pretty consistent laminates and other processes such as core shots and swirls with them. There is no cold joint in the laminates.

Plenty of other benefits to them as well but those are a few that come to the top of my head. They are not designed to do swim baits, or open pours and we do not advertise them to be able to do so. We stand behind our products 100% and if you try them and they do not suit your needs then we will accept them back with a full refund to you.

If anyone has a question or concern with them as far as usage or safety please let me know and I will answer to the best of my ability .

[GB GONE]

Thanks for more valuable info all!!!

Bountiful is correct, hand pour and hand injection can co-exist.

I'll show off some molds made for production soon from pop, resin etc.

Jim

PS As a side note, other vendors other than the ones mentioned offer hand injection equipment as well.

Edited October 11, 2009 by ghostbaits
spelling

[FishingBuds]

I have tried to keep up on this thread and I think, from a observers stand point, that there is basically a new movement happening. This section has normally been about "hand pouring" plastics. I do not believe that the hand injectors fall into the hand pouring category. Hand made yes, hand pouring no. It looks to me like a culture change if anything. Obviously hand injectors cannot do what a hand pour approach is capable of, but on the same note, I think there is a place for the hand injectors. Basically a bridge is being put in place between the garage type hand made injectors and the high production, high volume injection. I think there is a very distinct difference in concept and that there is a place for both. I congratulate Bear for fostering this movement. I think a guy can do both, depending the the need. I think there is an underlying distaste from some hand pour guys concerning this new culture as it seems to cheapen what the old school hand pour guys think of the art. I have done some soul searching and can honestly say, I see no reason why both hand injection and hand pour cannot coexist.

Good post, I agree and I haven't poured one bait yet:lol:

Honestly all this heated discussion has motivated me more to look into it.

[robalo01]

Great topic. I am very interested in the Hand Injectors. Bear (whom I have bought from and have been very pleased with) stated several wonderful examples of advantages to the hand injectors. But, here is one big disadvantage....

What makes a hand injected bait any better than a machine injected bait? Some interesting colors, maybe, although there are a lot of massed produced baits in wonderful colors.

The reason I hand pours is because I enjoy DESIGNING and CREATING something different that what you can find at Walmart or Acadamy or Bass Pro. Unless I can create doable custom molds that will Hand inject, I'm not sure I want to go there.

[Piscivorous Pike]

Great topic. I am very interested in the Hand Injectors. Bear (whom I have bought from and have been very pleased with) stated several wonderful examples of advantages to the hand injectors. But, here is one big disadvantage....

What makes a hand injected bait any better than a machine injected bait? Some interesting colors, maybe, although there are a lot of massed produced baits in wonderful colors.

The reason I hand pours is because I enjoy DESIGNING and CREATING something different that what you can find at Walmart or Acadamy or Bass Pro. Unless I can create doable custom molds that will Hand inject, I'm not sure I want to go there.

I was forced to use injection, the creatures I make are for pike fishing and I settled on very soft plastic, you won't find that on a walmart rack, custom colors, custom design and two piece molds.The tail shank was too thin to pour in a one piece or two piece mold. The plastic always clogged there or over filled. I was at a loss, I joined this forum after finding TU trying to solve that problem. I then also made some custom 3D creatures that needed two piece molds for the details.

For now I use injection pressure from the normal air pressure created by hooking vacuum to the air vents at the bottom of my POP, DWP and RTV molds, make my own. Vodkaman discussed vacuum injection, as he calls it, in another thread, as an alternative. I commented on my sucess there as that worked better than my DIY injectors. Now there is a selection of injectors on the market that will augment hand made and I will now buy one.

I think you can accoplish what you said you would like to do with hand injection as that is what happened to me.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Piscivorous Pike

[MTfishingrods]

Great topic. I am very interested in the Hand Injectors. Bear (whom I have bought from and have been very pleased with) stated several wonderful examples of advantages to the hand injectors. But, here is one big disadvantage....

What makes a hand injected bait any better than a machine injected bait? Some interesting colors, maybe, although there are a lot of massed produced baits in wonderful colors.

The reason I hand pours is because I enjoy DESIGNING and CREATING something different that what you can find at Walmart or Acadamy or Bass Pro. Unless I can create doable custom molds that will Hand inject, I'm not sure I want to go there.

Some good points here also. But I am not so sure that you cant create doable custom molds that will hand inject. To have one machined isnt to expensive, but with all our other alternative mold making materials out there and the talent that is on this site, I have no doubt in my mind that Homemade ones will soon be following. I mean they already have to some extent like Pikes and a few others, but the more people begin to understand just how these injectors work, and im not talking about cutting corners and trying to make do with a so so replica of one. Im talking the actual Hand injectors made by the Vendors themselves to do this job. The more people will begin to push further and further with them. Just watching the progress of everyone using these over the last few months has been absolutely impressive. I cant imagine where we will be with them come a year from now when more people start getting involved. I think you will even see the die hard hand pour guys begin to use them to a certain extent to create different effects. In fact Pike i wish I had your plastic bait, I would attempt to make one before you came through here on your way home.

[GB GONE]

Question: How do you "load" the laminate injectors? Are they 2 seperate injectors that you hook together after sucking up your plastic?

Answer: They are 2 separate Injectors yes.They load the same as the single Injectors. The process we try to suggest is to load one Injector and leave it in the heat source you loaded it from while loading the second Injector. Remove both Injectors at the same time and put into the sprue adapter on the mold. Shoot your molds and what is left purge back into your heat source. There is videos of doing it posted . These are not made for production but geared more for the guys that are not in a hurry and want to make something different.

Thanks Bear

This is what is holding me back from trying these out seriously. As much fun as they look and the interesting things I see coming out, I need to be able to reproduce the results hundreds or thousands of times. I will goof around with my own molds and set-up with impressions soon. If I make my own stuff, the whole vendor issue will be a mute point.

I have already thought of many things to combine hand pouring and hand injection systems into some things that would be amazing. Problem is, that would be one set of baits for me to take pictures of. To consitantly reproduce the results might take a system akine to Roboworms where robotics take over. Maybe just years of practice as with hand pouring.

As Robolo01 noted, I started hand pouring due to the need for some colors I could not get, even from the like of Roboworm. The colors are poured in open molds so they have to be hand poured. (Zbass will see the one that has won me several tournies this year soon!!). Most contains veins or split veins so that is where the hand pour comes in.

If the sun comes out, I'll snap a shot of the Amber Dream: Purple I am talking about and post it in the gallery.

Jim

[longhorn]

I have some experience with home made hand injection molds. I made this mold around 1980. The material is plexiglas and the coating is...yes, Elmers glue-all uncut. I "hand machined" 10 of these molds with a dremel tool. I use a screw and wingnut to hold the mold together. I can shoot 10 5" grubs in about a minute...but haven't used these molds or a 5" grub in years. I have wondered if this material would machine like aluminum for the CNC molds.

http://www.tackleunderground.com/forum/attachments/soft-plastics/3898d1227279510-custom-bait-first-pour-cimg0202.jpg

[GB GONE]

Nice Gary!!! I think Del has posted up regarding materials other than aluminum being cnc'd.

I can tell you that pop works just fine....

Jim

[bear21211]

Jim

The 2 color Injectors are just slower than doing one color. When you are doing your masterpieces with the multiple colors and veins and such.......Can you do them as fast as you can 1 color baits? Seems to me anytime you want that custom look regardless if it is injected or poured it will take more time. .

robalo01

Here is the most distinct reasons I have seen as to the difference in the baits we make with hand injectors and the ones BIG company's make.

Quality control Get a bag of baits made by the larger company's and open them up......

lay them on a table and look at the quality of the baits. Very seldom will you find a bag of perfect baits.

With the users we have using the techniques we use , Hand pour, hand Injection or what ever we take pride in what we produce. The big company's do not care if they have a dent or a flaw . We do, Our name is on the line and we do not take the chance with letting an imperfect bait slip by. Some people will say the major company's use all different products than what we use but I think that is very misleading. The products from what I know are all basically the same.

[GB GONE]

Bear:

Speed is not the issue for me personally. I can actually do veins and other diffucult pours in open molds with the same speed as single color pours in open molds. You just get a rhythm going like anything else. Preparation is greater on the front end, just like if you are filling 2 injector side vs one. In closed molds, single colors are much faster as you suggest. Veins and split veins are very popular for my customers. I think that is why Roboworm is so popular as well. Tails/tips are quicker for me as I just pour the first color then pour the second. Many are pouring, opening the mold, cutting out the excess, closing mold and poring the other color. Very time consuming.

I would not lump all big companies in the category of not caring. Maybe their quality control is suspect but I have been to Zoom's plant, and they care. GY cares.

I have seen plenty of hand poured baits with curled flake and washed out colors. I don't think they didn't care, just missed those baits when packing.

I am my own worst critic and trash baits that many would send on. My biggest pet peave is not sending out any baits that have to be trimmed. I just can't send them on if I didn't do my job an my end. Fish still eat those though as my buddies love the seconds.

I guess the best part is that most baitfish and fish "food" we are attempting to mimic are not perfect either. In fact, the "odd" or different object is usually selected by the fish to eat.

Jim

[saint308]

At the risk of sounding like a "cheerleader" I will say that I am extremely happy with my injection products from Bear. I have yet to have an accident with them and have poured quite a few baits. The O rings have not been an issue with me.

Jim: If you try them and don't like them I am sure you can sell any injector and molds from Bear without a problem. You can see the 2nd hand market is flooded with molds but very few if any are from Bear. You can also call him as he is not afraid to answer or return a call in a timely manner. Just my opinion.....better late than never I guess. Let me know if I can you at all. Saint.

[GB GONE]

Thanks bud. Bear's customer service is GREAT!!! No denying that!

I do see plenty of molds out there but remember, companies like LC and Del have been making molds for eons now. I get tired and switch up molds a lot, give it time and you will be able to buy all types of molds on the second hand market. The thing I also see is that they all are selling still as well.

My set up should be complete next week (depends on this large swimbait order). I'll show ya'll the mold I will be injecting and my full set up when ready.

Jim

Edited October 12, 2009 by ghostbaits

[gcl58]

one other thing about o-rings, the o-rings in the stainless steel injector that i use is clear, which means it has the lowest temperature rating there is. and again it is 5-years old

to replace a o-ring go to sears or any hardware store that sales them and purchase the one that has the same diameter as yours, if it happens to to have a larger girth, cut the length needed, make sure it is cut in a 45-degree angle and glue it with supper glue.and roll back in place of the old one. buy the red ones if possible, it his a higher temp rating

if a car tool/part being used for injection is not working to your specifications,then modify it to make it work, don't harp on the fact, ask questions, we the tackle underground will attack the problem and come up with solutions. like i said in this thread and three yeras ago, the stainless steel turkey basor injector (used for cooking) has been working for me fo 5-plus years guys and girls . if had seen this guys item he was sailing i would have purchaswed it in a heart beat. remember it is for the auto industry not injecting hot plastic. so some failures and a few modifications are expected for it to work.

[gone2long]

You can see the 2nd hand market is flooded with molds but very few if any are from Bear.

Wow now isn't that the truth take it from someone who has limited funds and is looking for a deal, I haven't seen a Bears mold yet and I'm no cheerleader as I've only purchased 1 4oz bottle of colorant from bear which by the way is one killer changeable motor oil I

[GB GONE]

Not sure what the point is on that???

You don't see "new" molds of other makers either! Molds come out when guys get tired of them or change hobbies.

If you wait, you'll see the ones you want. LC probably has sold hundreds of thousands of molds since their inception so many years ago, so the percentage you see sold is very low. (Just using them as example) In 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, you will see Bear's molds on the second hand market like LC, Bob's, Del's, M-F's. etc.

Scale of economics really.

Jim

Edited October 12, 2009 by ghostbaits
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