Hand injectors?

[saint308]

My point was you can try them and you will know very shortly if you like it or not. If not, you will have no problem getting rid of them because there is virtually no supply in the secondary market. Saint.

[Pitbull Baits]

I think Bears molds are not resaled to much is because. If you ask for a sample he will send you one. I have done it a couple of times. Plus you can send the mold back to Bear and get a 100% refund if your not happy with the mold.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Pitbull Baits

[GB GONE]

True. I did sell the one I bought easily. It was a hand pour though, not hand injection.

Jim

[GB GONE]

Best part of all of this attention is.... The prices go DOWN for all prospective users and the numbers of molds available will go way UP!!!

Win-win for anyone wishing to hand inject. I just saw more new items out!!!

YEAH!!!!!

Jim

[HAWGHUNNA]

Best part of all of this attention is.... The prices go DOWN for all prospective users and the numbers of molds available will go way UP!!!

Win-win for anyone wishing to hand inject. I just saw more new items out!!!

YEAH!!!!!

Jim

Jim,

Where,what,new items out? Post a link quickly please.

[GB GONE]

Other forum sponsors have items available. I noticed very competitive pricing on grub molds and hand injectors.

Look at our sponsors sites and the links provided under resources.

There are some great looking new molds available!!!

Jim

[jmik26]

Glad to see the hand injectors are taking off....

[dtrs5kprs]

Ok, admittedly I am late to the party on this hand injection deal. Have been busy raising kids, paying too much in taxes, etc.

I'm just curious what the original purpose of the injectors is? About the time I tuned out on the site people were starting to play with turkey injectors, etc. Is the purpose just to completely fill full round molds? From the litany of info, they don't seem to be faster or necessarily better. The resulting baits may have more detail, but TONS of fish are caught every year on traditional handpours.

I am still running sticks from one of Del's original molds using the large hot pots, sort of re-worked to clamp to the bench. Salt, color, flake all mix ok...just run the baits and top it off with mix once in a while. Obviously that is a stick mold, and would not work as well with the molds that duplicate other baits (single tails, hogs, etc).

If the point is just to duplicate baits the factory can make faster and cheaper, I must be missing something. That seems fundamentally contrary to handpouring. We have fished flat sided handpours for decades in grubs, curl tails, etc and the fish fine (sticks aside), and you just have to be smart enough to keep your hand out of the stream from the pots. Am I missing it? It seems kind of like the dip your own tube deal...yes it can be done, but is it worthwhile?

And I thought the old Devcon wars were bad on the Hard Baits page...sheesh.

[BBK]

Ok, admittedly I am late to the party on this hand injection deal. Have been busy raising kids, paying too much in taxes, etc.

I'm just curious what the original purpose of the injectors is? About the time I tuned out on the site people were starting to play with turkey injectors, etc. Is the purpose just to completely fill full round molds? From the litany of info, they don't seem to be faster or necessarily better. The resulting baits may have more detail, but TONS of fish are caught every year on traditional handpours.

On some molds, you can shoot 5+ worms in one shot with an injector. Takes 10 seconds to make 5 worms, much easier then pouring in each spout.

[Piscivorous Pike]

I came to TU just to learn how to make one bait. The tail shank is too narrow to hand pour. It takes injection.

I have learned that lures with fine apendages sometimes cannot be top poured but must be injected.

I played with DIY injectors and vacuum suction to make my narrow tail shank variants before both of these products were offered.

There is a real need in order to make detail in some lures and to make full round in others. A reaper I have is 3D with no flats and needs to be in a 2 piece mold to make it. Injection speeds up the process and have fewer rejects

Well, there is my reasons for small time hand injectors.

Best wishes and thanks to Delw and Bear for meeting the needs of many. Injectors will keep me in this hobby.

[outdooradvantage]

The injector system is much faster than hand pouring. Also allows you to make curltails in one shot, no pouring tail first. A big improvment from hand pouring these kind of baits.

[dtrs5kprs]

Faster vs pot pouring on full round or open molds? Are we talking about 2 color tails in a full round set up?

This would be about the only plastic pouring I have not tried. Not sure whether to be interested or thankful for missing out on the burns.

Edited November 2, 2009 by dtrs5kprs

[Richard Prager]

This is what I've found out with the hand injection:

It is very safe. I don't see how you can get burned unless you are very careless. You must clamp the molds. You shoot the baits and the plunger stops when the mold is filled. Remove and go on to the next mold.

I can make baits that cannot be made any other way. Baits that absolutely will not fill by pouring from pyrex or pot.

I have 10 single cavity molds and 4 3-cavity molds.That's 22 baits If my plastic is ready (about 2 cups) it takes 4 fills with a medium injector and without rushing, 4 seconds to fill each mold. The molds are hinged so they open quickly and easily. The plastic from the runners get tossed in the Presto Pot if I am using it for that and remelted and re-shot. 14 x 4 seconds is 56 seconds. Call it a minute. That's 22 baits in a minute. If I had enough plastic ready and somebody demolding and reclamping that 1,320 baits an hour. The single cavity molds to not heat up like the multi cavity molds. I can shoot the 10 single cavity molds all day and not have to open them using gloves. These are just my findings. I use my pot, hand injection and the Pyrex.

[GB GONE]

Dave:

You've been hiding!!!!

I have been playing around with it and if you are just talking about a 1 color bait, it is very fast and efficient, however you have to put the money out for the molds. It is expensive to have a large number of one or 2 cavity molds. You must also have the injectors available as well. We are not talking pop or resin molds, we are talking aluminum. Some have made rtv molds but for day in and day out production, I believe aluminum is needed. I have a pop mold I made with 6 cavities however it has been beaten up pretty good already by the injector nozzle.

If you want to do a number of laminates, tipped baits or veins (split or vein throughout), I doubt that anyone could produce that same amount as hand pouring. In fact, a split vein cannot be done effect or reproduced efficiently with a hand injector as it can be with hand pour. Not saying you can't do tips or laminates with a hand injector, I am just saying by the time you go through all the motions, I'll be finished.

There is a place for it for some but if I wanted to inject, I'd get a machine and I would inject. Why do 1,320 and hour when you could do 10,000 or more an hour? You can inject super soft plastic so a bait similar to a hand inject bait could be produced by the thousands easily. Quantity seems to be the goal of injection for some as well as getting plastic into small places gravity will not allow for.

Personally, I am looking to be able to make many colors that are tough or not possible to get on the store shelf and be able to reproduce that color efficiently and effectively. Hand pouring is the only way they can be accomplished for my stuff.

Just me though......

Jim

PS The blanket statement that injection is far faster than hand pouring is not true. For some baits, yes, for some baits no. Any one-sided mold would be a great example of hand pouring being quicker. Each techique has its qualities that makes it unique and quicker.

Edited November 2, 2009 by ghostbaits
additional info

[dtrs5kprs]

Dave:

You've been hiding!!!!

quote]

Online we call that lurking. Bwahahahaha! Glad to see things are going well for you Jim, also appreciate your answers on this issue. There were some prior answers that seemed to contradict in places, though informative.

Interesting method. Brings up the issue of whether you actually need all those details...I mean really, look at a Senko.

Kind of hate to see a lot of people going to this and considering themselves to be handpourers, because from what I can tell it isn't, not really. More like a fringe method of home based manufacturing. That's ok, not knocking it, just think it is a completely separate animal...might even need its own page eventually.

[GB GONE]

Kind of hate to see a lot of people going to this and considering themselves to be handpourers' date=' because from what I can tell it isn't, not really. More like a fringe method of home based manufacturing. That's ok, not knocking it, just think it is a completely separate animal...might even need its own page eventually.[/quote']

I guess I have been dancing around the same conclusion the whole time. I did suggest a sticky or some sort of distinction. Many are listing this method on their web page selling their baits as "hand poured" baits. I think there needs to be a distinction for the consumer.

I do not think this is hand pouring, it is hand injecting. Maybe just words to some but to those of us that hand pour, there is a difference.

I am not knocking the method at all, just trying to maintain the "hand poured" label as what it is...hand poured.

Jim

PS If you do give it a whirl, don't be afraid of getting burned. It is a non-issue as long as you take precautions like you do presently.

[Piscivorous Pike]

I guess I have been dancing around the same conclusion the whole time. I did suggest a sticky or some sort of distinction. Many are listing this method on their web page selling their baits as "hand poured" baits. I think there needs to be a distinction for the consumer.

I do not think this is hand pouring' date=' it is hand injecting. Maybe just words to some but to those of us that hand pour, there is a difference.

I am not knocking the method at all, just trying to maintain the "hand poured" label as what it is...hand poured.

Jim

PS If you do give it a whirl, don't be afraid of getting burned. It is a non-issue as long as you take precautions like you do presently.[/quote']

What is the big difference to the consumer? As a consumer, I see only the difference between hand made or machine made. Pouring and hand held injectors still are both a single operator hand made system to me.

Obviously hand made, whether poured or injected allows for custom colors and custom plastic consitancy. That is something very important to my fishing and why I make my own.

Outside of the maker's point of view, pouring is a craft, an art of great skill, injection is less so, the lure; what is the difference say in a swim bait whether it is hand poured or hand injected if it is the same pattern, same color and same plastic? Why is it important to specify the hand poured issue? If everything else is equal we are giving a distinction to the methods by which the plastic go into the mold. I don't see the difference in the delivery system as being that important. To me it is the design, color, plastic type and function of the lure.

Now, to add to my question. Either hand pouring or injecting is only a portion of producing the product. If the littley guy or hobbiest is putting plastic into a commercial mold, a mold and design purchased and of someone elses creation then that fellow is only making someone else's creation. That person is only putting plastic down into the real creation, the mold.

But take a producer that has created an original lure that is more important to me for recognition of excellence. Then to even make their own mold of their own creation to me that is more deserving for recognition than considering how the plastic got into the mold in the first place.

Now then. I only make a few baits to satisfy my fishing needs. But that is how I look at buying or using a bait. It seems to me that the peopel that make hand pour lures look at this differently.

Why? Please help with understanding that. I can see I am missing something important to others here, and I am looking for an explanation so I can appreciate that distinction too.

This last week I ventured into custom painting blank plastic baits. I will have to say I prefer working and playing and creating in the soft plastic lure hobby. From this last experience I see I want to expand my involvement into soft plastics, say bye bye to that painting stuff (I hope the airbrush can be used in soft plastics!). Certainly I do not want to ruin a hobby and go commericial however. I like creating creatures and then finally seeing a finished product on my line.

Thank you, in advance.

[GB GONE]

Some well made point and good questions....

Unless you don't buy baits or fish for bass, you have to know that FOR YEARS there has been a great distinction between injected baits and hand poured baits. A market has been created for each. The market has not been hand made or machine made. Go look at the packaging...

What is the difference? Ask the anglers, many professionals, they will have the answer.

They seek colors that cannot be, as you stated, delivered by the hand/machine injection method.

No other answer! When a hand or machine injection system can start making baits that can only be made by a hand poured method, then there may not be a reason to hand pour. There are differences in what can be made with the 2 methods, no doubt.

Excellence is not only in creating a bait but also being able to take that bait style and show it in a color or pattern that has not been seen before by the angler or the fish...

Look back through the gallery and tell me there is not excellence in that gallery...

I defend hand pouring as and art and a skill. Please let me send you a plain old mold and a recipe or 2 for you to try. You may be amazed at what some of those gentlemen are posting in the gallery is extremely tough to reproduce over and over again.

In my opinion, hand injection was started to get a near perfect, reproducable bait product for those who had a tough time doing that by hand. No problem with doing it that way, it is just a different way but IT does matter to the hand pourer and the consumer. Why else advertise hand injection baits as hand poured? The market is there already. The market for "hand injection" baits needs to develop and prove itself vs the machine injected baits.

This all comes from the business point of view. A fish will eat a hand injceted, hand poured, hand made or machine made bait if hungry.

Jim

[GB GONE]

PS Go look AT EVERY major manufacturer out there of bass soft plastics, they ALL have a line of hand poured baits now.

Does it matter to the consumer? If the big money is going there then HECK YES!!!

Jim

[Piscivorous Pike]

PS Go look AT EVERY major manufacturer out there of bass soft plastics, they ALL have a line of hand poured baits now.

Does it matter to the consumer? If the big money is going there then HECK YES!!!

Jim

There has to be a reason and I think you said it well.

Match the Hatch

The very reason I make my own. And if hand pouring is synonymous to having the perfect match then I understand very well. I just did not look at it that way. A matter of defining the parameters is all. Commercial baits are bought by the masses that do not understand match the hatch and therefore a built a little more rugged and in generalized colors. Smart old fish dont go for that. That is why the hand pour then is so sought after as it can meet the conditions of the perfect bait.

Two like swim baits, one poured the other massed produced will not necessarily work the same.

It is the subtleties you say and I can accept that. Carrying the title or label of hand poured somewhat gurantees a quality that is not in mass production by your definition and that answers my question perfectly.

I have been "hand" pouring for myself for years, before the internet actually but I did not get any proficiency until I found TU. The very reason I hand pour is the same reason you make the distinctions and I understand that now. Thank you for clearing that up.

I see where hand injection can augment the hand poured model both the business model and the custom bait model. But for a small producer it can also be applied to mass produce baits out of generic colors, plastic formulas and molds as a overhead cost cutter.

That difference is what you seek to be split so that mass hand injection does not make a "mutt" out of custom hand injection, aka, hand pouring for now.

Thanks for answering so quickly.

[dtrs5kprs]

Outside of the maker's point of view' date=' pouring is a craft, an art of great skill, injection is less so, the lure; what is the difference say in a swim bait whether it is hand poured or hand injected if it is the same pattern, same color and same plastic? Why is it important to specify the hand poured issue? If everything else is equal we are giving a distinction to the methods by which the plastic go into the mold. I don't see the difference in the delivery system as being that important. To me it is the design, color, plastic type and function of the lure.

Now, to add to my question. Either hand pouring or injecting is only a portion of producing the product. If the littley guy or hobbiest is putting plastic into a commercial mold, a mold and design purchased and of someone elses creation then that fellow is only making someone else's creation. That person is only putting plastic down into the real creation, the mold.

But take a producer that has created an original lure that is more important to me for recognition of excellence. Then to even make their own mold of their own creation to me that is more deserving for recognition than considering how the plastic got into the mold in the first place.

[/quote']

For purposes of the forum, I think the difference would be in the specialized tips, tricks, and techniques required for both. We might be better served by a separate forum for the injection techniques, simply to speed up the search and acquisition of info for both topics. No doubt there are some interested in one but not the other.

For purposes of sale or advertising, I'm not sure, seems a gray area, esp if there is a $ difference being asked for a product marketed as handpoured.

100% agree with you on the molds being the major point of creativity. Running 36 cavities of french fries from Lure Craft is not the same as pouring baits in a mold you created from start to finish. I've done both, and there is a difference, both in the product and the satisfaction level. Production vs. art I think.

Handpouring is a very visual process, from properly filling the molds to the amounts of each color to pour. I'm amazed at some of the colors being "shot" by the injectors, into molds that are closed to the eye.

As for a "rift" or a sticking point, because injection is sort of mass production in miniature, I believe there is a real difference. Clearly there is art, skill, and talent involved, but it is spent in duplicating the function of machinery (basically). Zoom could buy molds from Del or Bear, adapt them to their process and shoot more baits than we could dream of in the garage. That is fundamentally different than pouring, Roboworm aside. Again, like Jim, I don't mean to criticize, just point to a difference. I actually think it is pretty neat that people, especially TU'ers figured out how to do this.

[saint308]

What if I am making a laminate and I hand pour the bottom, then close the mold and inject the rest? Do I then need to label them half hand poured and half hand injected? Saint.

[Richard Prager]

absolutely:yay:

[GB GONE]

Yeah and if I used a pot also, it would be hand poured, hand injected and hot pot baits.....

If only Chris and Woodsac were here!!!

Jim

[clemmy]

I think it's a slippery slope when we start trying to classify and define...

Handpours have been done for a long, long time. It was the only available option for the hobbyist. What is popularly thought of as handpoured started out west as pourers were trying to create better baits for their clear water fisheries. Increased softness, new colors, etc. You could define handpours as those pours requiring knowledge and technique requiring the use of the handpour method, as Jim has stated. (Actually, traditionally the only pour that should be considered as handpours would be open molds.)But as I said this is dangerous. What about the same pourer making a Watermelon blue/copper flake bait? This isn't a handpour? Well yes it is. Well exactly the same bait could be made by hot pot or injector, and more efficiently to boot.

It's like those on the hardbait side, discussing "handmade" and "hand carved". There's not many simply whittling wood on the front porch anymore, and it has gone so far as some blurring the line into copy carver machines, especially on the saltwater side.

Is your new spinnerbait design no longer the same if you go from a wood mold to spincasted?

The biggie is "Custom"! Almost everyone throws this around on their sites, and it's the most misleading. Custom is made to customer specs. Even those with their own design and not one from the fine providers of molds aren't doing "custom" work if they are selling off a color chart. Or of a standard crank. Only those baits which you make a skirt/depth/action/color/whatever to a request are truly "Custom"

My two cents,

And probally not worth that in this economy,

Clemmy