Stick Baits - Poured Or Injected?

[mainbutter]

If I wanted to start making economical stickbaits, would you suggest I go with poured or injected?

What would you say the advantages/disadvantages to the two different methods are?

thanks

[BBK]

Poured. I don't see any need to inject sticks, they are the easiest plastic to pour.

[carolinamike]

If I wanted to start making economical stickbaits, would you suggest I go with poured or injected?

What would you say the advantages/disadvantages to the two different methods are?

thanks

Mainbutter,

Judge this one according to your need for speed or the size of your pocketbook. Of course the obvious advantage to injected baits is the speed at which they can be produced. If you're just making for yourself to fish with, and you're not looking for the production aspect of it, then hand pouring is the way to go. As it was said, sticks are easy to make and hand pouring gives you a lot of open area to experiment such as different colors and additives (flakes,scent & salt). It's really up to the individual. Me, I'm not happy unless I'm making 60 every 90 seconds. It's really just based on what you want to put into it.

[Delw]

If I wanted to start making economical stickbaits, would you suggest I go with poured or injected?

What would you say the advantages/disadvantages to the two different methods are?

thanks

When you say economical what exactly do you mean?

I'll give you my 2 cents coming from customers that are both big and small and guys who just do it for themselves.

Theres alot of factors that go into it, Thats why I asked the question above.

sticks unless your shooting 20-100 cavities at one time its not worth the hassle of injection, and NO it doesnt take less time for injection than it does on hand pouring, you still have the same amount of demold time( waiting for them to cool) about the only thing you do faster is shoot it and thats about it..

Shooting a few 4 cavity molds with one gun isnt faster either cause you still need to apply slight pressure to the gun and wait 30 seconds - a min so the plastic sets up, if you pull the injection gun to fast it will cause dents and voids, because the hand pour molds have a small resivor to draw in plastic when it cools( ie cooling makes plastic shrink a little), so why your waiting the to shoot the next mold the plastic in the tip of the injector tends to get hard,. when you shoot the next mold it may clog up the runner and give you a bad bait or two if it shoots at all.

There are a few advatages and thats being able to shoot 2 color baits ( not laminates) like having a tail chartruce and the body black for example

Delw

.

[mikefishnfl]

When you say economical what exactly do you mean?

I'll give you my 2 cents coming from customers that are both big and small and guys who just do it for themselves.

Theres alot of factors that go into it, Thats why I asked the question above.

sticks unless your shooting 20-100 cavities at one time its not worth the hassle of injection, and NO it doesnt take less time for injection than it does on hand pouring, you still have the same amount of demold time( waiting for them to cool) about the only thing you do faster is shoot it and thats about it..

Shooting a few 4 cavity molds with one gun isnt faster either cause you still need to apply slight pressure to the gun and wait 30 seconds - a min so the plastic sets up, if you pull the injection gun to fast it will cause dents and voids, because the hand pour molds have a small resivor to draw in plastic when it cools( ie cooling makes plastic shrink a little), so why your waiting the to shoot the next mold the plastic in the tip of the injector tends to get hard,. when you shoot the next mold it may clog up the runner and give you a bad bait or two if it shoots at all.

There are a few advatages and thats being able to shoot 2 color baits ( not laminates) like having a tail chartruce and the body black for example

Delw

.

Del pretty much nailed this. I own a small bait company but we are expanding quickly. We've worked extensively with Del in designing molds and he has helped us a lot with our custom designs. When it comes to sticks, he really explained it about as in detail as you can. We use a combination of hand poured molds and injection molds. The big benefit of the hand poured stick baits is the two color worms. Granted we don't offer this as a standard item but do get custom request from time to time and this is the only way to do it. If your just starting out and doing it for yourself, then go with the hand pour. It's a lot of fun and you come up with some really cool stuff.

[carolinamike]

unless your shooting 20-100 cavities at one time its not worth the hassle of injection, and NO it doesnt take less time for injection than it does on hand pouring, you still have the same amount of demold time( waiting for them to cool) about the only thing you do faster is shoot it and thats about it..

Being that I've done both, hand pour and injection, and now do injection for a living, I know when I had my hand injector set up that I could inject my plastic set at cooler temperature than what I would need to get the plastic to pour it, and Del, if I'm not mistaken, if you're using a cooler temperature you're getting it into the mold faster, then it's cooling faster, therefore the production is faster. That's the reason my company went from hand pour to hand injected to machine injected. All about production. And yes the hand injected molds were one to two baits at a time. Sometimes, I think you forget that TU's about helping people instead of always telling other people they're wrong.

[Delw]

unless your shooting 20-100 cavities at one time its not worth the hassle of injection, and NO it doesnt take less time for injection than it does on hand pouring, you still have the same amount of demold time( waiting for them to cool) about the only thing you do faster is shoot it and thats about it..

Being that I've done both, hand pour and injection, and now do injection for a living, I know when I had my hand injector set up that I could inject my plastic set at cooler temperature than what I would need to get the plastic to pour it, and Del, if I'm not mistaken, if you're using a cooler temperature you're getting it into the mold faster, then it's cooling faster, therefore the production is faster. That's the reason my company went from hand pour to hand injected to machine injected. All about production. And yes the hand injected molds were one to two baits at a time. Sometimes, I think you forget that TU's about helping people instead of always telling other people they're wrong.

I didnt tell anyone they are wrong, I think you miss understood what I wrote.

Yes you can shoot plastic cooler thats whats nice about it, however if your using the same hand injecton gun shooting cool plastic then goto the nex mold cause you have XXX amount left in your gun it will typically clog.

there alot of miss information about everything in hand pouring. its not really miss information its more of when one person gets tolds a way for one situation we all tend to make it apply to all situations.( just cant figure the word to use).

Kinda like bubbles for example. there all not the same but when someone sees bubbles posted everyone assumes its bad plastic when its not.

being specific in threads is very important to getting that problem or questions answered, other wise we could be chasing a false(what we think is a problem when its not) I remember a 3 page+ thread where everyone was saying the plastic was bad, when in fact it was the glitter that was bleeding after reheats.

Delw

[mainbutter]

Thanks guys!! This is exactly what I wanted to hear.

I'm going to go poured.

[saint308]

I am going with Mike on this one. You suck up your plastic and shoot the mold. shoot the remaining plastic (if any) back into the pyrex. Pop off the nozzle and put a new one on. Then suck up more plastic and shoot the second mold. By now the first is cool enough to demold. Clip off the tops and move on to demolding the second mold. The thing that takes the longest is remelting the sprues, but that is the same with either injected or poured. Saint.

Edited January 4, 2010 by saint308

[clemmy]

Please note that I am NOT an expert in production, as I'm still messing with designs, recipes, etc., and so still nuking pyrex.

But my thinking is that there is a difference in handpouring and production pot pouring which would both utilized had-pour molds for stickbaits.

I just hadn't seen the other option of pouring pot mentioned in the efficiency discussion.

The lines are getting blurred anyway...

i.e. you can get tip molds, so you can do tips with a handpour mold. And, conversely, I've seen that you can handpour an injection stickmold.

I realize I didn't solve anything, but hopefully made some options more clear for the op...

Craig

Edited January 4, 2010 by clemmy

[bear21211]

Mainbutter

You asked a question that has people answering from 2 different sides of the fence, Hand Pour Versus Hand Injection. Some people have used hand Injectors and not had very good success. Main reason they had products that were not designed properly, or they were not educated on how to use the products they had properly. You nor can anyone else on here take a hand poured 5 cavity Stik Bait Mold and produce more baits than you can with a 5 Cavity Hand Injection Mold Period. The Benefits of the Hand Injected molds

Advantages Of Hand Injection

1. Speed

2. Finish of Baits The Glitter Suspends Better

3. Less Rejects (Dents and Such)

4. Can Inject Cooler which results in Better Colors and Glitter Appearance.+ A little shorter de-mold time

Disadvantages Of Hand Injection

1.Cost added because of Hand Injector

2. ????????

I would like to hear some of the disadvantages of this method from you guys that say hand poured is as good or better than Hand Injection. I do not understand How something that is faster, makes better looking baits with less rejects can be worst than doing hand poured molds?

You will use the same process for heating and mixing your plastic.The largest difference here is is the price of the Injector .

[daveh]

i do both. my hand pour molds out number my hand injection molds but was hand pour long before a decent injector and molds came on the market. i have no problem with eather and am likeing hand ingection more and more. to me pouring baits is not the way you make the baits its all about the plastic we use. blows away the store bought junk. so eather way you will be fine.

[GB GONE]

Ditto to Dave's comment. Anyway you do it, you will be ahead of the store bought bait.

I have been playing around with my newest injector and molds quite a bit. I have a pot with stirrer, an injector + injection molds and I have hand poured molds. No automated injector like Mike though.....

I'll have to say that no matter what method you use, it always comes back to the number of molds you have.

The only small advantage that hand pour may afford is an easier laminate method (providing you use a split cup and not open the mold). If you are not considering laminte sticks then that advantage is gone. Certainly lamnites might be acheived with a hand injection system however, in my opinion, the reproducibility of the laminate will not be that of hand pouring with a split cup.

In the long run, even though you hand inject at a slightly lower temp, the molds heat up quicker as you run your first few runs faster than hand pouring so you end up waiting longer to de-mold after a short time. Actual production of the baits is faster with the hand injector though but de-mold and cooling brings the hand pour and hand inject right back to about the same end time. Pot is the same way.

More molds is the only solution to making more baits faster. Once proficeint as usuing any of the above techiniques, the % of acceptable baits is equivalent as well.

The last issue would be cost and you can figure that easily by reviewing all the sites that offer the various equipment. Remember to look ebay over as well. Hand pour stick molds can be had for a bargain at times. Plaster of paris, resin, rtv, etc molds can be considered as well to significantly reduce starting costs for hand pouring, pot usage or hand injecting.

Jim

Edited January 6, 2010 by ghostbaits

[mainbutter]

Thanks a ton guys I really appreciate all the info, keep it coming if you have anything to add

At least to start off I'm going to go hand poured, since I want to do hand pouring and I've gotta start somewhere. I may try out making sticks via injection at some point.

I'm not doing this for any serious production, just for personal use and for friends, if I happen to entice a couple people off of craigslist to buy a couple packs of 10 then all the better, but I'm certainly not doing this for money.

I'm going to start off with a 4 cavity 2 piece aluminum mold for laminates and worms that don't have a flat side. My production numbers won't be high, but then again they don't need to be for my own personal uses.

Are laminates doable with injection? I haven't looked at it much but I have seen 2-color injectors, is that what they are for?

[JSC]

Just my 2 cents worth.

To learn some of the properties of the plastisol I would start out pouring open cavity molds .. The best Basic training you can get (this takes more skill than the other ways) .. wether you use pyrex, metal or use the pot ... later on go to the 2pc full cavity (if you want, I can't do as much with multi coloring as I can with open cavity) and then I think the hand injection would come into play as you have learned some valuable lessons in the other processes.

Hope that helps and not muddy up the water.

JSC

[TTDuckman]

Just my 2 cents worth.

To learn some of the properties of the plastisol I would start out pouring open cavity molds .. The best Basic training you can get (this takes more skill than the other ways) .. wether you use pyrex, metal or use the pot ... later on go to the 2pc full cavity (if you want, I can't do as much with multi coloring as I can with open cavity) and then I think the hand injection would come into play as you have learned some valuable lessons in the other processes.

Hope that helps and not muddy up the water.

JSC

JSC made some excellant points and I think gave some great advise. Learning how plastic heats, colors, cools, pours and sets up, all things that are important to learn. Open pour molds, expecially detailed ones, require a skill to pour. If you can master them, you can do anything with plastic.

Tim

[smalljaw]

I'd like to hand pour but for me I have to go with injected, I've developed neuropathy in my hands due to chemotherapy for cancer and I just can't hold and pour out of a pyrex cup consistantly and alot of times I drop it so pouring plastic was out for me. Now I can pour lead using a ladle but I don't need to hold the ladle the amount of time the platic guys need to hold a pyrex cup and I was pretty much done with trying to pour plastics until these hand injectors came about, now I too can make my own baits and its not about weather its hand poured or injected but the fact you made it and the big advantage is you make your own colors and consistancy, you often have baits that are softer than most mass produced items and face the fact that nothing is as rewarding as catching a nice fish on something you made yourself, so whatever you decide to do know that you are doing what you want to do and your bait creations are just that...Yours!

[FishingBuds]

I'd like to hand pour but for me I have to go with injected, I've developed neuropathy in my hands due to chemotherapy for cancer and I just can't hold and pour out of a pyrex cup consistantly and alot of times I drop it so pouring plastic was out for me. Now I can pour lead using a ladle but I don't need to hold the ladle the amount of time the platic guys need to hold a pyrex cup and I was pretty much done with trying to pour plastics until these hand injectors came about, now I too can make my own baits and its not about weather its hand poured or injected but the fact you made it and the big advantage is you make your own colors and consistancy, you often have baits that are softer than most mass produced items and face the fact that nothing is as rewarding as catching a nice fish on something you made yourself, so whatever you decide to do know that you are doing what you want to do and your bait creations are just that...Yours!

Agree, I've started as a Hobby for me and my son, why we do it? Well it was said perfectly by smalljaw right there.

[robalo01]

Well, after pouring sticks for about eight months, I thought I would try hand injection. Benn working on it for a week, and here are my findings:

1. The fact that you can pour at a lower temp does improve color consistancy and reduces demolding time by about 15-20%.

2. Actually filling the molds is about 50% faster (taking into account preping the injector and filling one mold).

3. these eficiencies can only be taken advantage of with more molds. That is, if you want to increase production you need to increase the number of cavities.

I find that with hand pouring,I reach terminal velocity at about three 5-cavitymolds. That is, by the time I´m finished pouring the third mold, the first one is ready to de-mold. With injection molding, I think this could be increased to about 5 molds in the same time.

The point is, injection molding begins to be more productive after the third mold, if you are using fewer, you might as well hand pour.

BTW, I did notice fewer mis-pours, and there is much to be said about the endless possibilities for small appendages. I´m going to stick with it, as it serves my purposes well.

[GB GONE]

Curious if you have tried any laminates yet Stephen? Swirls are not to tough but laminates seem out of reach unless you use a 1 cavity mold when injecting.

Thanks for the info!

Jim

[robalo01]

Curious if you have tried any laminates yet Stephen? Swirls are not to tough but laminates seem out of reach unless you use a 1 cavity mold when injecting.

Jim,

No swirls or lams. I don't have near as much time as i used to have to fool around with this. I'm only doing solids and tails. I'll get into it in a week or two.

Stephen

[robalo01]

A couple more things:

Con:

A bit more messy than hand pouring. Lots of drips to clean up:

Pro:

You gotta love the way you can just pull off the sprues. Cut time and makes a clean cut. It is great.

[smallmouthaholic]

I've been hand pouring for 5 years. I'm just getting into injection - it is faster and produces a consistent,uniform product. It does require a substantial investment if you're commercial but it's the way to go for production - without question. Currently,the laminates are easier and more uniform to pour-BUT- do you get paid for your extra time to make them ??

Many folks would like to drive and own a Mercedes motor car but don't want to pay the price!

Once you learn the ins and outs of injection and invest the $, you won't want to hand pour for sure.It becomes a laborious P.I.A. for sure and then you have to trim the baits when you're finished on the one sided molds. Put your hand-pour and two-color prices where they need to be and let the customer decide what they are willing to pay for.

[powerworm]

I've been hand pouring for 5 years. I'm just getting into injection - it is faster and produces a consistent,uniform product. It does require a substantial investment if you're commercial but it's the way to go for production - without question. Currently,the laminates are easier and more uniform to pour-BUT- do you get paid for your extra time to make them ??

Many folks would like to drive and own a Mercedes motor car but don't want to pay the price!

Once you learn the ins and outs of injection and invest the $, you won't want to hand pour for sure.It becomes a laborious P.I.A. for sure and then you have to trim the baits when you're finished on the one sided molds. Put your hand-pour and two-color prices where they need to be and let the customer decide what they are willing to pay for.

my wife and i have been producing baits for the past year and we have gone from having a small customer base and very few molds all hand pour; to a few more customers and a decent sized tackle dist. to more hand pour molds (lots) to more customer and now 3 tackle distributors (OK,MO and CA) and now we are totally injection and we sold all of our hand pour molds and have half the amount of injection molds and are producing 4 times the amounts of baits. alot of these are really easy because we can run together 10 gallons of plastic in a little over 8 hours and switch colors every gallon. its just what do you want to make if its just for yourself...then all means do what you feel comfortable handling; but if it gets overwhelming quantity wise seriously look at the hand injection process and i think you will be amazed at the quantity you can make...jon/pw

[Richard Prager]

my wife and i have been producing baits for the past year and we have gone from having a small customer base and very few molds all hand pour; to a few more customers and a decent sized tackle dist. to more hand pour molds (lots) to more customer and now 3 tackle distributors (OK,MO and CA) and now we are totally injection and we sold all of our hand pour molds and have half the amount of injection molds and are producing 4 times the amounts of baits. alot of these are really easy because we can run together 10 gallons of plastic in a little over 8 hours and switch colors every gallon. its just what do you want to make if its just for yourself...then all means do what you feel comfortable handling; but if it gets overwhelming quantity wise seriously look at the hand injection process and i think you will be amazed at the quantity you can make...jon/pw

Hey Jon.... Does your wife have a sister? Mine refuses to de-mold for me. It is hampering my production and I'm thinking about divorcing her. I'll give her one last chance!