Infringement Rights

[B and D Lures]

I just received an email from a laywer, stating that I was infringing on their clients rights by naming a lure that their client has a patent on. I had no idea that it was an infringement. No problem, the name was changed. But, I just wanted to pass this along to all. The name that was used by their client was Sweet Beaver. I was using Sweet Bee Grub. To avoid any hassles, I changed the name to Ribbed Flippin' Grub. No harm, no foul, I hope!!

[criggster]

I just received an email from a laywer, stating that I was infringing on their clients rights by naming a lure that their client has a patent on. I had no idea that it was an infringement. No problem, the name was changed. But, I just wanted to pass this along to all. The name that was used by their client was Sweet Beaver. I was using Sweet Bee Grub. To avoid any hassles, I changed the name to Ribbed Flippin' Grub. No harm, no foul, I hope!!

That doesn't even sound close to me. There is only one word that is the same. I tell you it must be a prerequisite to be a **** before you are a lawyer.

Edited February 5, 2010 by criggster

[Jig Man]

The ambulance chasers seem to be chasing baits now.

[mainbutter]

At least for the little guys, the name of the bait is much much less important than the actual bait itself

[Delw]

I just received an email from a laywer, stating that I was infringing on their clients rights by naming a lure that their client has a patent on. I had no idea that it was an infringement. No problem, the name was changed. But, I just wanted to pass this along to all. The name that was used by their client was Sweet Beaver. I was using Sweet Bee Grub. To avoid any hassles, I changed the name to Ribbed Flippin' Grub. No harm, no foul, I hope!!

The reason you got the letter was due to the bait NOT the Name. your bait is a SWEET BEAVER Reaction has a design patent on it.

To me that bait looks different However I am a machineist and I can point out some huge difference from my point of view. but I think you need to look at it from a laymens point a view, meaning give your bait and a real sweet beaver and ask them if there is a difference in there eye. a fishermen wont works needs to be someone thats just standing on the street corner as thats who would be in a jury if you ignored there request and they went to court over it.

If the jury was made up of Machiniest or hand pourers they could give you a ton of differences.

One of my customers got into a little altercation a few weeks ago at a boat show about this. He called me to let me know what happened. I ended up pulling the mold after I talked to my neighbor who doesnt have a clue about fishing or machining. he said it was close.

So we redesigned it, looks better anyhow.

Now I asked my young daughter and she pointed out about 15 differences but she runs machines and just learning programming too and shes under 10.

Its funny on design patents as you never really know how someone is going to precieve the bait. another thing is there are 47 baits made by bait manufactures (big ones) that have a sweet beaver type bait. Bass assine has almost a Identicle copy, netbaits has an almost Identicle copy, basspro shops has and Exact copy including the machine lines( tool lines). they must have had them made in china.

The other thing is when andre first came out with the bait before Zorn even finished the real production molds they had a sample mold for him( he gave me a sample of the bait so I assumed it was a test mold zorn ran.) Andres best friend at the time who lived in AZ came to me and asked me to make him a mold as they needed the bait to fish a local tourny. But they didnt want to pay for it cause it was too much and I couldnt get it done in 5 days. I think I still have the sample of that bait laying n a box somewhere.

I've never gotten a letter nor email nor phone call so I assumed it was a tad different, cause all andre ever had to do was pick up the phone and Say Hey Del thats pretty close to a patent violation and I would have taken it off. Andre fished alot fo the same touries I did here in az when he was here, he's a pretty cool guy just a tad on the full of himself side like lots of others. he knows me in passing at tournies and we know the same local guys.

Delw

[Frank]

(Now I asked my young daughter and she pointed out about 15 differences but she runs machines and just learning programming too and shes under 10.) Does that mean that the best is yet to come Del. I know when I call now I will just ask for your 10 yr old daughter the programmer. Thanks for the insite.lol

I think they are pushing people that wont push back. But if it is not a big deal and you end up with a better product then all is good.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Frank

[carolinamike]

Reaction is really starting to get serious about the Sweet Beaver now, and you really can't blame Andre. Molds are expensive, patents are even more expensive, and protecting them can even be more expensive than those. I've also been privileged to receive a letter not from Reaction but from another company. I do know that there are two kinds of patents. A design patent and a design function patent. Andre has a design function patent which means that not only is the looks and designs protected but any similar design that would make the bait function in the same way, will be a target. So, it's not necessarily just the looks or the name. This bait like a lot of others is protected all the way around. If you are brave enough to take it to court, the way it was explained to me was the final decision was left up to the judge. How many court judges do you think are machinists or bait designers? So it will be left up to who can really afford the best attorney. And if you lose, the penalities are tremendous. In other words, they might not can stop you, but they can break you out of the habit. But you know if you look back on the Sweet Beaver over the past few years, Andre's been real generous. When the bait first came out I purchased a silicone mold that actually had the initials RI in the tail. I never used it and got rid of it pretty quick. And like Del said, look at the many numerous knock offs that's on the market at this time, and with the economy like it is and with the money Andre's probably got invested, you really can't blame him, and you really can't go after one unless you go after everybody, so I look to read more about this subject. I think there will probably be a lot of people getting letters.

[bhorlings]

I received my letter last week and know of at least two others. In fact, on another forum someone posted the court documents for RI suing Strike King for the same thing I believe.

[bassrecord]

Bet their lawyer was just Googling and got a hit.

Good luck!

John

[Delw]

I received my letter last week and know of at least two others. In fact, on another forum someone posted the court documents for RI suing Strike King for the same thing I believe.

I saw some summary papers on this just before christmas a freind faxed them to me from alabama . I havent seen the org complaint yet as it might be something entirly different in the words of the official complaint.

The RI vs strike king case is going to be real interesting to see what happens and its going to effect every bait maker both commercial and small guys big time.

If Strike king looses it will open the doors big time for anyone making a bait remotely similar to any thing patented. for example every frog out there that has paddled feet with be effected, just do to the paddles like Ribbit frog, then this could be extended to swimbaits as swimbaits had the paddle before the frogs did.,

Funny thing is Strkie king didnt design that bait one of my customers did, the tail and the wings come of the flappin hog. the body was the org. body I had on the beavers a 30 degree lines Like I made them in the begining( like the roboworm bodied ones), they changed the body to look like reactions.

I am pretty sure ZOOM is sittins on the side lines going if RI wins then We can sue everyone, incluindg RI

theres basically three parts of the beaver, body wings and tail. strike king changed the wings and tail leaving the body the same. that right there is a 60% change.

the tail on a beaver is just a paddle tail. they been out for years even before beavers IE zoom chunk molds is a good example of the beavers tail.

the body is oval shaped with a hook slot what about other oval shaped bodies with hook slots? ( ribbit frogs horney toads those bodys are oval shaped with hook slots and were out well before the beaver. even the superfluke is similair in a way,( which there patent ran out a few months ago) the Super fluke has a hook slot in the bottom and on the top( point/barb hider)

so if strike king loose's that sets a presidence for everyone that has some bait with in 60% ?

you cant go by size on the Beaver patent as the beaver is a design patent not a size patent so a beaver 100 inchs long would still be protected, if you go by percentage of the beaver parts to the other parts then again there is a bunch of baits that look nothing like a beaver that will be in jepordy.

a few that come to mind. Brush hogs flappin hogs and pretty much 50% of the creature baits out there that were made before the beaver.

Why he went after Strike king I have no clue, i think he would have went after Bass assasin and Netbaits well before Strike king. as netbaits is only 30 % differnt that being the grooves of the body, Bass assain is Identicle.

its going to be interesting to see how the judge and the jury ( I believe it has to goto a jury trial if strike king fights it.) sees the design. whats going to be even more interesting is seeing what the lawyers on both sides use as an argument trying to justify how one bait looks like another as the arguments will set the stage on every other lawsuits against people who makes baits..

Delw

[Delw]

[ooops double post

Edited February 6, 2010 by Delw

[Delw]

Bet their lawyer was just Googling and got a hit.

Good luck!

John

Actually its more like RI's Prostaffers that are searching on the web then sending links to RI which in turns send them to Ris lawyer. prostaffers are the worst when it comes to tattling and even copying baits from tackle forums. Ive seen it done and i know a few who do it. one of the guys used to be a member here on TU in the early years designed a really cool chunk bait.* the guy who said he made it for zoom was also a meber here, zoom had it out 1 year later and I was told zoom sent the guy who designed it a cease and desist order, he said he told them to blow a goat.

Lawyers wont do anything unless they get paid for it. thats what prostaffers and sales men are for, free labor for the lawyer....

[carolinamike]

Del, I've already been through this same situation with Zoom. The Zoom chunk has a same type of patent as the Sweet Beaver, it is a design function patent. Therefore, a percentage of looks has no bearing on this issue. It does not matter if there is a 90% difference if there is 1 item be it a ridge, a bump or any other design and it's designated in the patent that these ridges and bumps cause the bait to perform in a certain way, then it doesn't matter what the bait looks like. If it's similar in design and this design causes the bait to work the same way as the Sweet Beaver then it is infringement in the eyes of the law. Unless the 3 patent attorneys that I spoke with are telling a lie, it is solely left up to a judge. As far as Reaction and the Strike King suit goes the same mold maker made both molds. The mold maker is a very stand up guy, I'm sure if he felt like there was any patent infringements, that he would not have proceeded with the mold. I know for a fact that he's turned down doing molds similar to the Beaver because I'm one of the people he turned down. There's a fable that's floating around about baits and has floated around for years, that there has to be a percentage of difference. This may be true to some point, but when a company goes through the trouble to get a design function patent instead of a regular design patent it's intended for complete protection of the bait, or product patent. There's a whole bunch of "I think it should have" or "to me it looks like", these don't work with these types of patents. I know for a fact, my chunks were completely a different shape, different head design and a different tail design. All except for the ridge on the outside of the tails. That's what got me. I went to a lawyer and talked with him and he felt like that percentage of difference was way more than what I needed to beat Zoom, but when he pulled the patent from the patent # alone he already knew that I didn't have a chance. If there is a letter that comes after the patent # such as "S" of "B" or something like that, then most likely this is a design function patent. I think this is a good subject to bring up again not to tell each other that we're wrong or right, but to help TU members that's not quite as high up in this thing as we are not to make a costly mistake. Just the attorney fees alone with no guarantee of winning was enough to tell me that my dog wasn't big enough for the fight. But as far as mold makers go, and I'm sure you know this, it is up to the individual to research patents, not the mold maker. For instance, if I request a certain mold and it's a patent infringement, then the responsibility falls on me, not my mold maker. On this subject I'm real careful not to speak on things that I don't know about, the last thing I would want to do is lead someone the wrong way and them get in a lot of trouble.

[Delw]

Del, I've already been through this same situation with Zoom. The Zoom chunk has a same type of patent as the Sweet Beaver, it is a design function patent. Therefore, a percentage of looks has no bearing on this issue. It does not matter if there is a 90% difference if there is 1 item be it a ridge, a bump or any other design and it's designated in the patent that these ridges and bumps cause the bait to perform in a certain way, then it doesn't matter what the bait looks like. If it's similar in design and this design causes the bait to work the same way as the Sweet Beaver then it is infringement in the eyes of the law. Unless the 3 patent attorneys that I spoke with are telling a lie, it is solely left up to a judge. As far as Reaction and the Strike King suit goes the same mold maker made both molds. The mold maker is a very stand up guy, I'm sure if he felt like there was any patent infringements, that he would not have proceeded with the mold. I know for a fact that he's turned down doing molds similar to the Beaver because I'm one of the people he turned down. There's a fable that's floating around about baits and has floated around for years, that there has to be a percentage of difference. This may be true to some point, but when a company goes through the trouble to get a design function patent instead of a regular design patent it's intended for complete protection of the bait, or product patent. There's a whole bunch of "I think it should have" or "to me it looks like", these don't work with these types of patents. I know for a fact, my chunks were completely a different shape, different head design and a different tail design. All except for the ridge on the outside of the tails. That's what got me. I went to a lawyer and talked with him and he felt like that percentage of difference was way more than what I needed to beat Zoom, but when he pulled the patent from the patent # alone he already knew that I didn't have a chance. If there is a letter that comes after the patent # such as "S" of "B" or something like that, then most likely this is a design function patent. I think this is a good subject to bring up again not to tell each other that we're wrong or right, but to help TU members that's not quite as high up in this thing as we are not to make a costly mistake. Just the attorney fees alone with no guarantee of winning was enough to tell me that my dog wasn't big enough for the fight. But as far as mold makers go, and I'm sure you know this, it is up to the individual to research patents, not the mold maker. For instance, if I request a certain mold and it's a patent infringement, then the responsibility falls on me, not my mold maker. On this subject I'm real careful not to speak on things that I don't know about, the last thing I would want to do is lead someone the wrong way and them get in a lot of trouble.

Mike I hear ya, I send people to the company that designed the beaver mold quite often, All those guys are stand up and know there shit.

I downloaded the 2 beaver patents last night, They said Ornamental Design the one patent number is usd515,176s and the other is us 7484327b2 I assume for function

the us 7484327b2 is more complexed, and in reading most of it its weird in terms. Meaning for example"

the abstarct section states "the ribs are used to hold the bait in the fishes mouth.,"

most guys look at it being different and to hide the hook better Ive fished for bass pretty heavy and in my entire live I have never thought of a bait being designed to keep it from slipping out of a fishes mouth,

the tail section was designed to give a "pinching motion when being pulled through the water" how does one define pinching motion in this bait? how did that get by for example other split tail and craw type baits, chunk baits?

this is why its going to be very insteresting to see what happens. Look at the craw chunk for example when pulled through the water it does the same thing as the beaver, it could be said that it was designed to simulate a pinching motion also, however the craw chunk was designed way before the beaver was even thought of.

Not trying to argue argue the point, just trying to see how others would consider how a patent is issued and used and open it to discussion.

Delw

[Delw]

Ok heres another good one. as it just got very interesting Reds NEXT LMAO

is this infringing on the Patent? by someone using the name "BEAVER" on a public forum?

ri has a pataint on the bait and the name beaver. i just seen on another web site ri is sueing strike king and also read ri lawyers said you can not even make them for yourself. don`t know how they would know. but i have 2 molds. guess i will try to sell the baits by word of mouth or sell the molds andsee what the new ones will look like.

The Warden called (right after I made the above post) and said I got a cease in desist order from RI for DaveH making the above comment? he used the word beaver on my forum.

So now using the WORD "BEAVER" in a public forum by members is infringing on the Patent? I havent seen the letter yet but she said she would drop it off in a hour or 2. How can I or any admin on any forum be held in defaullt of someone else using the word Beaver? Do I have to Bann DaveH now, Slap him on the wrist , put him in Time out.

She said they copied his post in the cease and desist order. Hmmmmm . ??????

Maybe I will change the name on everyones post that says "BEAVER" to AV, aka Andres Vagina

Edited February 6, 2010 by Delw

[Husky]

Ok heres another good one. as it just got very interesting Reds NEXT LMAO

is this infringing on the Patent? by someone using the name "BEAVER" on a public forum?

The Warden called (right after I made the above post) and said I got a cease in desist order from RI for DaveH making the above comment? he used the word beaver on my forum.

So now using the WORD "BEAVER" in a public forum by members is infringing on the Patent? I havent seen the letter yet but she said she would drop it off in a hour or 2. How can I or any admin on any forum be held in defaullt of someone else using the word Beaver? Do I have to Bann DaveH now, Slap him on the wrist , put him in Time out.

She said they copied his post in the cease and desist order. Hmmmmm . ??????

Maybe I will change the name on everyones post that says "BEAVER" to AV, aka Andres Vagina

I wonder what would happen if a few hundred of us made lure using "Beaver" in it's moniker. Just askin'. Is using "Pu Tang", the Asian variant of beaver also taboo" (Credit to Jackie Gleason)

[Delw]

The Warden called (right after I made the above post) and said I got a cease in desist order from RI for DaveH making the above comment? he used the word beaver on my forum.

So now using the WORD "BEAVER" in a public forum by members is infringing on the Patent? I havent seen the letter yet but she said she would drop it off in a hour or 2. How can I or any admin on any forum be held in defaullt of someone else using the word Beaver? Do I have to Bann DaveH now, Slap him on the wrist , put him in Time out.

She said they copied his post in the cease and desist order. Hmmmmm . ??????

Maybe I will change the name on everyones post that says "BEAVER" to AV, aka Andres Vagina

I wonder what would happen if a few hundred of us made lure using "Beaver" in it's moniker. Just askin'. Is using "Pu Tang", the Asian variant of beaver also taboo" (Credit to Jackie Gleason)

The Warden called a little bit ago she won't be making it back today so I will see the letter when I get home.

She did Tell me that it was a picture of Daves baits ( not the one posted above)and a post and that I was to delete all posts and the word "beaver" on any molds, how to make them etc etc no matter who they were from.. this includes the forsale/trade section were people were selling others peoples molds as well On my forum( I never look at the forsale section).

.

[daveh]

I AM SO CONFUSED. I THOUGHT BEAVERS WERE JUST CUTE AND HAIRY

[smallmouthaholic]

I believe the name sweet beaver is a registered trademark and therein lies your problem w/using any parts of the name.

[JSC]

The name "Beaver" being used in a Forum, seems to me, is bringing them a lot of FREE Advertisement .........

Really "Fishey" that they should complain about using the name anywhere ...EXCEPT on the Product.

My 2 cents (I have been known to be wrong ... just ask my wife )

JSC

Edited February 7, 2010 by JSC

[bryanmc]

The name "Beaver" being used in a Forum, seems to me, is bringing them a lot of FREE Advertisement .........

Really "Fishey" that they should complain about using the name anywhere ...EXCEPT on the Product.

My 2 cents (I have been known to be wrong ... just ask my wife )

JSC

It is amazing that someone can prohibit the use of a word that is not exclusive to their product. Are fly tiers now prohibited from saying they use beever fur on their flies? Thankfully nobody got a copyright on the word "worm" or we'd all be screwed LOL

[Fatman]

They need to do away with name patents for any word that shows up in the Dictionary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the same thing goes on with Blakemore and the Road Runner, Sorry I'm legal saying it as the Manufacturers name was mentioned with their product LOL.

But like the that, baits like these were present WAY before they got trademarks and patents etc.

When will it all end???

Fatman

[Husky]

They need to do away with name patents for any word that shows up in the Dictionary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know the same thing goes on with Blakemore and the Road Runner, Sorry I'm legal saying it as the Manufacturers name was mentioned with their product LOL.

But like the that, baits like these were present WAY before they got trademarks and patents etc.

When will it all end???

Fatman

I recall that someone was told to stop using his own name on a product or business, as it infringed on a patent or copyright. If the name they want to patent is overly broad and common, no patent or copyright should be granted imho.

[bryanmc]

I recall that someone was told to stop using his own name on a product or business, as it infringed on a patent or copyright. If the name they want to patent is overly broad and common, no patent or copyright should be granted imho.

That was Tim Horton, the problem was a Canadian donut shop chain named Tim Horton's

[Toxicbaits]

You know reactions non innovators have stolen most of there product designs. The "sweet Beav" was the yum wooly hawg. I had been flippin that bait for years before the "development" of the new beav. I find what RI is doing rediculous and had to email the company just to let them know how I felt. The name for their bait colors are even offensive refering to sexual fetishes and drug slang. that company is a joke and i am proud to say if I want a bait similar I have some rtv, a shoe box lid, and a bucket of plastic.. wonder what I would do with those?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Toxicbaits