Fish 30acre Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 *im putting this in the hardbait forum just because this is where i am most often (if it needs moved, moderators go ahead). so something i have learned from spending a lot of time on this website over the years is that you learn alot but you also have to be very careful who you trust. i am naturally a trusting person, so its harder for me to believe that some people are only in this forum to steal designs from other people and then take the credit for it. i have even heard that most lure manufacturers have specific people in this forum that are here for only that. after finally realizing this over a year ago, i stopped posting pics of my latest works and are only showing trusted friends, which is sad because what i am doing now is tenfold better than what i have posted even just a year ago. right now, i have a friend at icast with a portfolio of some of my work in which he was going to show some of the manufacturers... i told him to use discretion and make sure he knew who he was showing and what their intentions were. thankfully, the first person he ran into this morning was larry dahlburg. they spoke for about 30 mins. larry told him NOT to let anyone else see my lures there at the show and that about 80% of lures out there are someone elses design. i was looking for advice from the best of the best out there, but larry said all they are after is bettering their name and will steal whatever they can to do so (i understand not all are like this tho). he also said that manufacturers will make a design even if its patented by someone else, because most lure crafters are not going to sue because they cant afford to. i understand that this is a business and that manufacturers are looking for an edge over the other players, i will be in this business soon too, i just feel my creativity is high enough to stand out on its own. i plan to have a booth at icast next year, so know that i am comfortable enough with my own designs and wont be stealing yours! and thank you to mr dahlburg. ....feelings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thur the years I have seen a lot of this ... (I was in the "makein" Bizz in the 60 - early 70s ... Retail B &T and before retireing abouy 30 years as a "Jobber" salesman .. all the time in the tackle biz) ..... in all phases I have seen this .. had others "Knock Off" ideas (I could go into all kinds of mistakes in the Mfg, but Would take up to much space) ... Make a long story short .. Regardless of how great your lure is ... you gotta run it 1st with a strictly Biz manner (plenty of capital and know how to mainipulate it .. Market Skills and etc) in your efforts to get it on the market with out the capital to advertise is the biggest mistake made by some one starting out in this biz .. regardless to how good it is the chance of "Luck" helping you is really small ... I could go on & on about this subject as I have seen so many have a great item but did not have the skills to market it ... a lot of pitfalls besides getting "Knocked Off" .. I got "Knocked Off" and made a crucial mistake in marketing it and that was to let a jobber have an "exclusive" for a Year ... he sold a ton .. and demand in that area was created ... other jobbers wanted it ... other Mfgs filled the demand the next year and both made an improvement on the design ... Hope this little info might help ... It takes many factors to make it work don't get the "Cart before the Horse" Example have a demand before "jumping in" to something like "I cast" thats for down the road and you need to have GOOD MFG REPS at that time. My 2 cents JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thirtyacre86, I totally agree with you and for the same reasons, you will not find a single picture of my baits, anywhere. The blatant plagiarism within this industry is a big concern to me and all the other TU members, who work on new ideas and are thinking that one day they might bring their product to market. Like Larry stated, they will even copy patented ideas, because the small producer cannot afford to defend his work. When/if I ever make it to the market place, I will not be presenting my BIG ideas. I will not present them until I can afford to defend them. I will present new ideas, but only those that are not practical to patent anyway. Good luck with the ICAST thing, but if you generate big orders from the show, you’d better be able to meet them. JSC, I for one, would love to read a lot more of your experiences in the industry. I think it would be a big eye opener for anyone thinking about taking the next step. I think the information would be relevant to this thread, or you could start a new discussion. I feel certain that others would be interested too. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 "JSC, I for one, would love to read a lot more of your experiences in the industry. I think it would be a big eye opener for anyone thinking about taking the next step. I think the information would be relevant to this thread, or you could start a new discussion. I feel certain that others would be interested too. Dave Dave Thanx for the request but I have to more or less "Go with the Flow" to really putthis in the proper perspective (Speelin) would take a book and I have trouble "Rambling" .. need to be able to really concentrate on the subject ... maybe some where down the road I mite can get it all together .. till then I will try to chime in with the subject at Hand. Thanx Jim C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogajiga Posted July 15, 2010 Report Share Posted July 15, 2010 Not wanting to sound like a know it all wise ass, but it seems everything worth copying eventually gets knocked off. Even the notoriously defended RoadRunner & Chatterbait can only retain trade name rights, as modified clones have popped up like mushrooms on cow patty. But thats life, more copiers than creators, and big money usually wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coonhound Posted July 16, 2010 Report Share Posted July 16, 2010 So how does one go about marketing and selling a one-off bait? I realize it will probably be snagged and marked by the big names. But how do you even get something on the market? Is it worth just taking the idea to a big name and hoping they pay you for it? If this has already been discussed ad naseum, my appologies. FNG here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 30acre Posted July 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 So how does one go about marketing and selling a one-off bait? I realize it will probably be snagged and marked by the big names. But how do you even get something on the market? Is it worth just taking the idea to a big name and hoping they pay you for it? If this has already been discussed ad naseum, my appologies. FNG here! gooood questions... lets hope we get some knowledgeable people with some answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crankie Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Thirtyacre86, you need a ton of money to prtect yourself for the whole project. Have a friend that tried patenting a very good idea. Used one of those patent agencies, need money for US patent, 20,000 dollars for asian patent and more money for european patent. You get the picture. In the long run, they redesigned his idea and are marketing it under a new name. All you have to do is change it minimually. I agree, listen to Larry D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish On! Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 I want all similar information. I, as a little man with a big idea, fear being roadkill. Are there talent scouts for creative lure designers that could present your ideas to the big money marketeers under some sense of security and confidentiality? Is it worth Trade Marking your lure line? Is it worth patenting a lure system? To reveal a new lure, what would be the best steps taken when? I want to know??? I am so new I've never heard of Icast, what is it? Is it THE annual mecca meeting of lure manufactures, revealing their new lines to retailers? All Do's, Don'ts, & Intelligent Insight are welcomed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 (edited) No matter how you break down the words "big business" you can't spell "fair" or "honest". Unless you have a large sack of money, patents at our level are all but useless. Big companies know that we don't have the money to defend the patent; so they are just going to do what they want. The fair and honest thing for them to do would be to offer to buy the rights to our designs; but don't hold your breath. Just my 2 cents. www.novalures.com Edited July 17, 2010 by nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterjay Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 I want all similar information. I, as a little man with a big idea, fear being roadkill. Are there talent scouts for creative lure designers that could present your ideas to the big money marketeers under some sense of security and confidentiality? Is it worth Trade Marking your lure line? Is it worth patenting a lure system? To reveal a new lure, what would be the best steps taken when? I want to know??? I am so new I've never heard of Icast, what is it? Is it THE annual mecca meeting of lure manufactures, revealing their new lines to retailers? All Do's, Don'ts, & Intelligent Insight are welcomed! You may want to check out the U.S. patent office's website for info on trademarks and the application process. If I wanted to go into the lure-making business, I certainly would secure trademark rights. I've seen an awful lot of confusion and flat-out misinformation on other threads and sites about what constitutes a patent, trademark or copyright. A little research will go a long way regarding this kind of stuff. I know that most of us would rather stick our heads in a wood chipper than pay a lawyer, but consulting a competent patent attorney is the best way to avoid confusion and prevent being royally screwed somewhere down the road. And just to echo what others have already said, NEVER post anything online that you don't want to be copied. Some websites even appropriate the rights to any images or texts that are posted on their forums. They stick it in the "terms and conditions" disclaimer that a lot of people don't bother to read before they hit the "agree" button. Just like on the X-Files: "trust no one." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Do you want an example of a company that blatantly copies every "good" lure on the market? Pick up a Bass Pro Shops catalog. Look at their XPS series of hard and soft baits. Every hard bait they have is a knock off of a successful lure. They have copied soft baits to make them look identical. Above all, NEVER show them a prototype bait. A friend did this, hoping they would help him market it. The said they didn't think it had a chance. But, in the next BPS catalog, there was the lure, under the BPS name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish 30acre Posted July 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 im not looking to patent anything, nothing i have is groundbreaking enough to... but, whats the best way to get on with a lure manufacturer? do you just have to know the right person working for them for you to get your foot in the door? ill do what i can running my own business, but if i could find the right way, id gladly join forces with a tackle company. would it be best to knock on every door i can and just beg for an interview? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 im not looking to patent anything, nothing i have is groundbreaking enough to... but, whats the best way to get on with a lure manufacturer? do you just have to know the right person working for them for you to get your foot in the door? ill do what i can running my own business, but if i could find the right way, id gladly join forces with a tackle company. would it be best to knock on every door i can and just beg for an interview? Gosh I hate sound like a "Know It All" and to throw "Cold Water" on an idea ..... Belive me this mite work BUT ... I have great doubts that you mite get one of them to count you in ... going in with a smaller mfg is as close as I can see this happening on this route. Good Luck Jim C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthworm77 Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 This kind of stuff sucks and happens all to often. There is really no easy or cost effective way to defend against it and it has happened to me. I have been a hand pourer of soft plastic for more than 15 yrs. I have developed a color palette of hundreds of colors. Recently I wanted to update my website and give it a more professional look so I started looking at soft plastic manufacturers site for ideas.....wouldn't you know it, there was one who copied my whole color palette complete with names....some of the names are people that I know and have met through the years and are very unique. I'm not really upset at least the credit is there and I'm not losing money over it but it surprised me a bit. I've guarded my designs pretty well but there is always someone looking to cash in on someone elses work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coonhound Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 I do have a design that is new and original, and catches the fire out of largemouth and smallmouth. What's the best way to get it out there? Wait until i get a big inheritence from someone in the family and pour it into a name and marketing and lawyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 Unless you happen to be a lawyer who also makes baits for sale (any hands?), a patent/copyright is exactly worth the money you are prepared and able to spend for lawyers to defend it in a court of law and bully transgressors in the marketplace. How many bait inventors are so successful that a huge legal expense is a rational choice? Especially when the expense may well not have a meaningful result ($$$) even if you win (certainly not guaranteed). What's a boy to do? IMO, TU is about sharing knowledge and yes, that includes design. Maybe it even includes a few war stories about patent protection, etc, if there's anyone here with experience (haven't seen much so far). If you want to hide your light under a basket and keep your "million dollar, fish catching invention" a secret from other craftsmen and knockoff artists.... Please Do! Just do a better job of it. I worked in the Secrets Business for a long time and here's Rule One: Never mention the existence of something you "can't talk about", can't show results for, and may never be able to build in commercial quantity. Rule Two: if you want legal advice, talk to a lawyer (bring money!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 (edited) That lure marketing business over there in the US appears to be quite a snakepit , if I look at the posts in here . Not sure about Europe , though , .......probably the same , as the lure of easy money is universal ! Years ago I had written a pictured "how-to" essay on this simple tube lure in a German angling magazine , http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/4710-perfect-asp-lure/ , just to share my knowledge with other tinkerers and/or to encourage others to try their hands on homemade lures as well . Anyway , a few weeks after that magazine was issued , I received a phone call from someone willing to buy a couple of these tube lures ,....... he said , that he got my number from the publisher of that magazine . Anyway , ......I asked him , why he wouldn't build them on his own , as my essay was not meant as a promotion but an instruction and that the lure is quite easy to build.........but he said , that he didn't have the time and possibilities and stuff like that , .......and that he was willing to pay a good price as well . OK , he transfered the sum onto my bank account and I mailed him some tube lures , still wondering about all the effort for such rather simple lures , .........and even he had said , that they do not have asp in his prefered local waters , the main target species for that lure !!!! About 8 months later , it was springtime and the new annual tackle catalogs of the local companies had come out , ......I saw this very lure model inside of one of these catalogs , ......also checked an older issue , that I still had , and it was not there yet ! I haven't done any research on this matter , did not contact that guy again as well , ........it might even not have to do anything with him but rather with the publication of that "how-to" essay , .........but I believe , that it is surely not by accident , that this lure model was inside of that manufacturers catalog just some time after it was described in the press ! I have no bad feelings about that ,...... if I wanted to avoid such to happen , I'd rather not publish any designs anywhere , period ! But also I am not willing to pay big money to apply for patent rights and after not find any manufacturer ,....... might as well bet my savings on horses , I suppose ........I have also heard , that over here in Germany contacting the companies straightaway does not take one far , as they most likely react quite reserved concerning inquiries about marketing home-designed tackle and lures , ........seems that they are obviously facing too much rubbish coming in , ........someone , who must know , told me this ! On the local market one can't get into big profits , any way , ....some sponsoring by the companies , a few extra $$$$ to add to the living , free tackle , ....that's it , I suppose ? To get back to that tube lure , .........if it should be really like that , that they have copied it after my essay or that guy worked for that particular company , they have made a big mistake , ........they've rigged the line tie swivel on the top tip of the lure , not on the lower part underneath the angled nose of the tube lure , saw it clearly on their catalog picture ! Never saw that lure in a tackle shop , also it was obviously discontinued in the following annual catalog , ........it would never have worked out that way with the line tie at wrong location ! greetz , diemai Edited July 18, 2010 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
