Cad

[Fishoey]

Hello All-

I was wondering if anyone has designed a worm in CAD (or similar software) in order to have their design sent off to a aluminum dye cutting company for injection molds. I have an idea I would like to produce. I have tried rtv molds, however I'm not getting the results I am looking for. Also, I would like to design the worm in perfect symmetry, something I can't do by carving. I understand the costs with custom dyes. I didn't know if there was one software preferred over another.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance!

[biggun]

Hello All-

I was wondering if anyone has designed a worm in CAD (or similar software) in order to have their design sent off to a aluminum dye cutting company for injection molds. I have an idea I would like to produce. I have tried rtv molds, however I'm not getting the results I am looking for. Also, I would like to design the worm in perfect symmetry, something I can't do by carving. I understand the costs with custom dyes. I didn't know if there was one software preferred over another.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in Advance!

I use CAD to design all my targets and have done some 3D models of some baits, all i use is CAD so im kind of partial to it.

[Vodkaman]

Something DelW said in a past thread on a similar subject, machine operators are unlikely to trust CAD data from a customer, due to the high cost of the equipment.

Your best bet is to get intouch with one of the machinists that specialize in lure molds and talk to them direct. They may well be able to work from your prototype. Talk to Del, he is a site sponsor.

Dave

[biggun]

Something DelW said in a past thread on a similar subject, machine operators are unlikely to trust CAD data from a customer, due to the high cost of the equipment.

Your best bet is to get intouch with one of the machinists that specialize in lure molds and talk to them direct. They may well be able to work from your prototype. Talk to Del, he is a site sponsor.

Dave

True most soft ware will have to be converted to an DXF file to send it to the machine.

Our CNC plasma is like that.

[SHK]

True most soft ware will have to be converted to an DXF file to send it to the machine.

Our CNC plasma is like that.

shouldn't be an issue with sending a cad file, as long as the file format is compatible with their cam software. with cnc the cad file isn't sent to the machine, it is used to write a cam, or, cut file which tells the machine where to cut and what tool to use.

you will want to check with the machinist before spending the time to draw the bait in cad.

[Ed Brabant]

shouldn't be an issue with sending a cad file, as long as the file format is compatible with their cam software. with cnc the cad file isn't sent to the machine, it is used to write a cam, or, cut file which tells the machine where to cut and what tool to use.

you will want to check with the machinist before spending the time to draw the bait in cad.

If the bait is designed with 3D software such as Pro Engineer or Solidworks there should be no problems. the 3D model has to be good meaning no unattached segments. For example you can't create a box with out the end points meeting.

[BuffTriton]

If the bait is designed with 3D software such as Pro Engineer or Solidworks there should be no problems. the 3D model has to be good meaning no unattached segments. For example you can't create a box with out the end points meeting.

I have someone who probably can do it for you but he isn't cheap on the other hand if you can supply some of the information and save them some time it should reduce your cost. The quality of work is incredible due to the fact they're proto type mfgs in the medical industry ie replacement joints etc.. PM if you want the info.

[Delw]

Fishoey

when making a "CAD" file remember a few things,

the bait you are drawing is going to be completely reversed to produce a mold. so lets says you have a sharp corner on the outside of the bait, in the mold it will need to be a radius as a tool wont cut a sharp corner. as the tools are round. this is for a CNC mill to run them, if you get your molds burned ie EDM, the shop will make a electrode exactly like your bait then burn it into the metal making a cavity. however the cost is high due to the fact they have to cut a electrode just like your bait then burn it into the mold.

also any chamfers and fillets you have on edges try to design them the biggest that you can use.

Basicall all outside radius and chamfers ona bait are the inside of the mold

lets use the "BEAVER" body for example

you know how the ribs on the body are pretty sharp? the radius looks to be approx 1/64 a 1/32 endmill will run extreamly slow due to the diameter is very small so light cuts need to be taken. light cuts and slow feed = more time on the cnc and more time on the cnc = more money it will cost.

I try to get people to use no smaller than a 1/16" dia which is 1/32 rad. this will run decent but still cost more than using a 3/32 dia endmill. to give you a better example a 1/16 ball endmill will feed 2-2.5 times slower than a 3/32 endmill. and depending on the bait your running could add up to and hour or more of time. on occasion I will use a .046 dia endmill.

Dont get me wrong if you need a part that is very sharp then people will make it however it will also add alot to the part due to time.

bottom line is the bigger the tool a shop can run the cheaper the part will be due to time.

Something DelW said in a past thread on a similar subject, machine operators are unlikely to trust CAD data from a customer, due to the high cost of the equipment.

Dave

Dave, When I posted that I made some typos or got ahead of myself, these were machine files people wanted to send ie NOT the cad files.

But like Ed said below a cad file can give someone a nightmare if its not made correctly.

True most soft ware will have to be converted to an DXF file to send it to the machine.

Our CNC plasma is like that.

CNC Mills generally don't use a DXF file at the machine the will use a file generated by cam system. Haas machines had a option in the machine to run DXF files, I played with it and disconnected it as it was dangerous and unstable.

if someone sends a DXF file to a person with a cad-cam system they can convert it to a machine file that the machine will understand,

machine file meaning G-CODE file that cnc machines use.

shouldn't be an issue with sending a cad file, as long as the file format is compatible with their cam software. with cnc the cad file isn't sent to the machine, it is used to write a cam, or, cut file which tells the machine where to cut and what tool to use.

you will want to check with the machinist before spending the time to draw the bait in cad.

If the bait is designed with 3D software such as Pro Engineer or Solidworks there should be no problems. the 3D model has to be good meaning no unattached segments. For example you can't create a box with out the end points meeting.

stp files work the best and are more dependable, Iges files are nice and I always thought the were good till I got one from being that was a nightmare. the part had alot of un attached segments and missed line, we spent 3 days reworking the iges cad file. Boeing doesnt like to use REAL blue prints anymore I guess, as they sent them only for reference and instructed us to ONLY use the IGES file. Unfortunately the designer who drew the Iges file winged it as he must have been using the same "Referance prints" we got as his dimensions were all made up LOL

Solid works files are pretty darn nice.

[Vodkaman]

It is always a good idea to discuss the job with the machine engineer and allow him to have some say in the design, particularly if you have no machining experience yourself. One or two insignificant design changes could save you a fortune. Without this discussion, the machinist will bend over backwards trying to give you what you want, when it wasn't really necessary.

This is the way it works in industry, were the designers and the machine engineers curse each other behind their backs. Good design is always a compromise.

Dave

Edited October 6, 2010 by Vodkaman

[jacobsbaits]

Fishoey

when making a "CAD" file remember a few things,

the bait you are drawing is going to be completely reversed to produce a mold. so lets says you have a sharp corner on the outside of the bait, in the mold it will need to be a radius as a tool wont cut a sharp corner. as the tools are round. this is for a CNC mill to run them, if you get your molds burned ie EDM, the shop will make a electrode exactly like your bait then burn it into the metal making a cavity. however the cost is high due to the fact they have to cut a electrode just like your bait then burn it into the mold.

also any chamfers and fillets you have on edges try to design them the biggest that you can use.

Basicall all outside radius and chamfers ona bait are the inside of the mold

lets use the "BEAVER" body for example

you know how the ribs on the body are pretty sharp? the radius looks to be approx 1/64 a 1/32 endmill will run extreamly slow due to the diameter is very small so light cuts need to be taken. light cuts and slow feed = more time on the cnc and more time on the cnc = more money it will cost.

I try to get people to use no smaller than a 1/16" dia which is 1/32 rad. this will run decent but still cost more than using a 3/32 dia endmill. to give you a better example a 1/16 ball endmill will feed 2-2.5 times slower than a 3/32 endmill. and depending on the bait your running could add up to and hour or more of time. on occasion I will use a .046 dia endmill.

Dont get me wrong if you need a part that is very sharp then people will make it however it will also add alot to the part due to time.

bottom line is the bigger the tool a shop can run the cheaper the part will be due to time.

Dave, When I posted that I made some typos or got ahead of myself, these were machine files people wanted to send ie NOT the cad files.

But like Ed said below a cad file can give someone a nightmare if its not made correctly.

CNC Mills generally don't use a DXF file at the machine the will use a file generated by cam system. Haas machines had a option in the machine to run DXF files, I played with it and disconnected it as it was dangerous and unstable.

if someone sends a DXF file to a person with a cad-cam system they can convert it to a machine file that the machine will understand,

machine file meaning G-CODE file that cnc machines use.

stp files work the best and are more dependable, Iges files are nice and I always thought the were good till I got one from being that was a nightmare. the part had alot of un attached segments and missed line, we spent 3 days reworking the iges cad file. Boeing doesnt like to use REAL blue prints anymore I guess, as they sent them only for reference and instructed us to ONLY use the IGES file. Unfortunately the designer who drew the Iges file winged it as he must have been using the same "Referance prints" we got as his dimensions were all made up LOL

Solid works files are pretty darn nice.

Delw,

I totally agree with you on the cutter size issue, the bigger the better. And are sharp ribs on the "Sweet Beaver Bait" necessary? I'm sure a lot of guys will say that the ribs are the key to baits success, but I think it's more in the appendages. We differ in our opinions on DXF files, I use them daily for routine 2D tool and die work. It just saves me a ton of programing time to take a dxf file straight from design and dump it into the machine.

But your right, as far as 3d mold work, dxf files are for the most part useless.

I feel your pain with companies skimping on detailed blueprints anymore. They send in CAD files which are drawn line to line, no specified tolerance, and they expect you to make a good part for them. It seems like every idiot with a college degree in engineering, considers themselves a tool/mold designer.

[Vodkaman]

In the car industry, we provide 2D drawings, mainly for all the hole dimensions and tolerances. The drawing also states all the general production tolerances ans process notes necessary for the job. The days of dimensioning a drawing to death are long gone, but drawings are still required. Boeing must carry this information somehow.

Slightly off topic, but interesting.

Dave

[Delw]

In the car industry, we provide 2D drawings, mainly for all the hole dimensions and tolerances. The drawing also states all the general production tolerances ans process notes necessary for the job. The days of dimensioning a drawing to death are long gone, but drawings are still required. Boeing must carry this information somehow.

Slightly off topic, but interesting.

Dave

Dave I was kinda shocked too. there is a spec for fillets chamfers and tolorances, this was also R&D a complete assembled part, that might have something to do with it?.

I hadnt done boeing and hoenywell work for a few years and alot has changed sence then. we used to get a operation sheet(more like a book) for the entire part proccess as we always made the parts complete before.

Delw

[jacobsbaits]

Dave I was kinda shocked too. there is a spec for fillets chamfers and tolorances, this was also R&D a complete assembled part, that might have something to do with it?.

I hadnt done boeing and hoenywell work for a few years and alot has changed sence then. we used to get a operation sheet(more like a book) for the entire part proccess as we always made the parts complete before.

Delw

Your shocked by what?

[Delw]

Your shocked by what?

because a Iges file can be manipulated if someone wanted to screw with a vendor a PRINT its a bit harder to doctor up.

I dont trust electronic files .

Also using different programs to open a iges file made from one program tends to give differnt dimensions when they use polylines. ie it depends on how the incoming progam splits them into segments.

On bait molds and other stuff + or - .005 is usually ok, however if your running stacked dimensions or true positions to a file that was turned into a polyline you will get some different results, when running angles off of certain reference points the angles are a tad off.

Maybe its just the way the ORGS were drawn but my buddies shop usually has to redraw in ACAD and prints then resave to get the proper EXACT dims.

Delw

[Fishoey]

I want to thank everyone who posted. I'm sorry for the slow reply. For some reason I did not receive email notifications when people posted to my thread. Thanks for the advice and suggestions!

[Vodkaman]

I want to thank everyone who posted. I'm sorry for the slow reply. For some reason I did not receive email notifications when people posted to my thread. Thanks for the advice and suggestions!

It's okey, we enjoyed chatting amongst ourselves I learned a few things too.

Did you get your part sorted out?

Dave

[Fishoey]

It's okey, we enjoyed chatting amongst ourselves I learned a few things too.

Did you get your part sorted out?

Dave

For the moment, yes. I found out about a month ago my boss (and good friend) knows CAD and about 7 other design programs (not all of them are for machining). I am hoping one of them will work. I am going to find a local machinist and find out what he/she needs. My design doesn't use super fine detail, so I think it will be relatively easy to produce. I'll be sure to get the confidentially agreement from whomever does the work.

Currently I have an RTV mold and I am in the process of trying my first resin mold (I posted about Alumilite and Resin recently). I have found and ordered "Wood's Metal", which I will pour into the RTV mold to make the resin master. Wood's metal will melt at 145o F, so I am hoping the resin mixture will stay below that point when pouring. If it gets stuck in the removal, all I will need to do is heat the metal in steam. I'm not sure if other members have tried this. If it works I'll let you know.

Thanks!

[zulu-X-treme]

I've used 2D & 3D Design-CAD, CAD and Autocad. Most of the software outhere nowdays allows the file to be converted to anything from .dxf to .plt.

I've even designed in CorelDraw & Flexi-Sign then converted in to a .plt - Imported it to one of my CAD software packages and converted it to .dxf without any problems...

End of the day it's sometimes easier and less hassle just to go to the right guys than trying to do it yourself. Although having said sometimes it's great getting into something new and learning...

[vapermedic]

I have a friend who is making molds now and might be able to help you. Not sure what program he's using but he's very knowledgeable and puts out a great product. Here's the link to his facebook site...he's got a website too but I can't remember the address.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Angling-AI-llc/219253348108529?sk=wall#!/pages/Angling-AI-llc/219253348108529?sk=wall#!/photo.php?fbid=232767536757110&set=a.219341214766409.62497.219253348108529&type=1&theater

[Fishoey]

@zulu-X-treme: Thanks for the tips! The guy I mentioned in an earlier post actually knows Flexi better than any other program, so I'll be sure to let him know about the file conversions.

@vapermedic: Thanks for the info! I'll check out his FB. Since I have someone who can design, I am looking for someone who is willing to sign a confidentially agreement, where they won't release the molds to others. I am checking into a patent, so during the patent pending stage I will be more aggressively pursuing a metal mold maker. Right now I am working on resin with a wood's metal master just to get a mold which will produce consistently. Thanks again!