Different Actions

[Tom P]

My first post I think I have read this forum from top to bottom and amazed at the talented people on here..

I fish walleyes as my primary target. The fall and winter ( cold water ) they really favor a rolling side to side action versus a wobble. Most shallow baits that accomplish this rolling are narrow and longer pencil shape. My questions can this rolling action be made using a deeper sided bait but yet be shallow. I have included a pic of our shad they favor the most. . i

[mark poulson]

Tom,

Maybe it would help you to think of the body of the lure in terms of water resistance.

If you take a round dowel and roll it between your hands in a pot of water, like a boy scout trying to light a fire with a stick, you can roll it almost as fast as you could if it were just in the air.

But if that dowel has a flat blade, like a spatula, on the end in the water, it will be really hard to roll as quickly, due to water resistance.

For me, that's the easiest way to understand why flat, deep bodied baites roll much less than round baits.

Edited December 10, 2010 by mark poulson

[Tom P]

Tom,

Maybe it would help you to think of the body of the lure in terms of water resistance.

If you take a round dowel and roll it between your hands in a pot of water, like a boy scout trying to light a fire with a stick, you can roll it almost as fast as you could if it were just in the air.

But if that dowel has a flat blade, like a spatula, on the end in the water, it will be really hard to roll as quickly, due to water resistance.

For me, that's the easiest way to understand why flat, deep bodied baites roll much less than round baits.

I can totally understand what you are saying. Thank You

That is why I was wondering if there was a way to get this done. The difference between Rapalas ( balsa ) has to much buoyancy when on the pause, adding weight to slow the rise takes away some of the rolling action. Plastic hollow bates seem to work better, at the pause they are slower rising but don`t roll as good as the balsa baits. Neutral buoyancy baits don`t seem to have enough rise to trigger a strike..

[BobP]

The problem you run into with a shad shaped bait is that shad are very thin and flat, which makes it a little harder to get a rolling action. The best I've done are copies of a bait called the Shad Killer. These are 4" long, 1/4" wide, #4 trebles, weight about 3/8 oz and have rather narrow lips. I don't pretend to know all the reasons why this configuration has a rolling action, but these do roll moderately. I think the roll is helped by the narrow lips. They are excellent trolling lures for stripers. Haven't tried them on walleye though!

Edited December 10, 2010 by BobP

[nitro98]

It is all a function of shape, boyancy and the speed of retrieve. For instance on a shad shaped bait... the faster it is retrieved the less the roll, the slower the retrieve it is hard to get any action at all...it will just go straight. Of course you can always have the bill to give it some action but my experience is with swim baits. In dealing with shad bodied swimbaits i have noticed there is a distinct line between no action..to rolling action to wobble/tight action and it is a very fine line that you have to experiment with to get it just how you like it.

Also i have noticed on some cranks that it is much harder to get a rolling action on deeper diving baits. I assume it is due to the bills water resistance being greater than a shallow diver.

Anyhow just my two cents

[Fishwhittler]

I've made some deep-bodied baits with wide, rolling actions. I only did a couple before I abandoned it, but they are 3" long, 3/4" thick (that may be thicker than you were thinking?), and 1 1/2" tall. The bill is angled steeply down, and the line tie is small and close to the nose of the lure. The shape of the bill is similar to that of a Bomber Model A, with the widest point being close to the middle of the bill.

Here's a pic I posted in the gallery. This bait dives down to about 3', and it has a very wide action with a lot of roll. I don't think it had any tendency to spin or blow out.

For this kind of bait the bill angle should be steep, and the line tie should be close to the nose of the lure. Then, you'll just have to keep experimenting to get the action you want.

I hope this helps.

Ben

[Tom P]

The problem you run into with a shad shaped bait is that shad are very thin and flat, which makes it a little harder to get a rolling action. The best I've done are copies of a bait called the Shad Killer. These are 4" long, 1/4" wide, #4 trebles, weight about 3/8 oz and have rather narrow lips. I don't pretend to know all the reasons why this configuration has a rolling action, but these do roll moderately. I think the roll is helped by the narrow lips. They are excellent trolling lures for stripers. Haven't tried them on walleye though

BobP

Thanks I will have to check these baits out,

[Tom P]

I've made some deep-bodied baits with wide, rolling actions. I only did a couple before I abandoned it, but they are 3" long, 3/4" thick (that may be thicker than you were thinking?), and 1 1/2" tall. The bill is angled steeply down, and the line tie is small and close to the nose of the lure. The shape of the bill is similar to that of a Bomber Model A, with the widest point being close to the middle of the bill.

Ben

These fatter type baits work well in the summer when water temps are higher pitching wing dams or rip rap, cold water period they don`t seem to cut it. Very good information thou Thank You

Nitro thank you for the info. I imagine that is why one doesn`t find shad style bait with a rolling action...the fine line you talk about.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Tom P

[jamie]

add some weight to the spine of the bait.

[Vodkaman]

add some weight to the spine of the bait.

Jamie, I was going to say the same thing in response to post No3. If you want to slow the rise and maintain the roll, add weight to the belly and the back in equal amounts.

Roll is a function of body cross section, as Mark described in his very eloquent explanation, in post No2. Fishwhittler covered the solution in post No3, making the body fatter and rounder in shape.

I would only add that experimenting with tow eye position will help you tune the amount of roll. The closer to the lip, the more action (see the BopP pic, post No4). If the bait flips over, move the eye position further away from the lip. Interesting an informative thread.

Dave

Edited December 11, 2010 by Vodkaman

[Tom P]

Jamie, I was going to say the same thing in response to post No3. If you want to slow the rise and maintain the roll, add weight to the belly and the back in equal amounts.

Dave

Now there`s an elequient idea .....DUH why didn`t I think of trying that.......on the minnow type balsa baits.

[jamie]

Now there`s an elequient idea .....DUH why didn`t I think of trying that.......on the minnow type balsa baits.

You can also keep adding weight to the baits spine to fine tune the roll action.When I test to see what kind of action I need I will super glue split shot in different size and different weight along different parts of the bait to see what and how much weight I need to place later in the bait.You can snap of the weight with pliers if you need to take them off. Take pencil and paper and document each reaction to each peice of weight you add, you will learn alot. I learned more about weight placements in one evening doing this than, than I did in years of making baits in the beginning. Jamie

[Tom P]

Is there a certain bill shape that lends it self more to a rolling action on shallow running baits?