Fish Candy Man Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hello all, I am glad I found this site. It has given me lots of things to think about. Thanks for all that you have already enlightened me with. Like many fishermen, I like to catch fish with my own creations. I learned this when I hooked my first smallmouth on a fly rod with my own fly. It has lead to making my own ice lures that actually worked. I call them fish candy. I now want to expand to other types of lures. Soft plastics, hard baits, and even custom rods one day. I also have this overwhelming desire to have my own business. I always had good ideas but never had that feeling of wanting to do "that" for the rest of my life. Making my own baits is someething I would like to try. I would like to start making baits for myself and friends and if successful and can keep the unit cost down, I would consider selling them. My questions for all of you is are: 1. Is buying molds from a person for your own use and you can't sell the product? 2. Can you buy an agreement to pay royalty fees for using someone's molds? 3. How costly is it to patent a bait? Does it depend on the complexity of it? 4. And lastly, Am I dreaming or is this site filled to the gills with good info and helpful people? Thanks for your help. Fish Candy Man Oh, below is one of my ice flies I called Bubblegum Jelly Bean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerworm Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 1. youy can buy the molds all day long but if the bait is in some way or another protected you could possibly get yourself in a legal bind. and if it is protected and you make a bait even for personal use you are taking monies away from the person who spent the time to develop and protect his ideas. 2. possibly but i dont think you would be able to afford it for persoinal use. 3.it depends on if you hire an attorney(highly reccommended) to research your application beforehand. all of the other paperwork and applications can be done on the internet. 4. we try to be and were not held back if theres something that smells fishy its probably fish!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Prager Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Welcome FCM. What about avatar infringement? LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Welcome... While you will get advice and opinions here, unless there is a patent attorney on board, WITH EXPERIENCE IN THE FISHING INDUSTRY, you are just getting opinions and experiences. Only one that can answer your questions is a qualified patent attorney in the fishing industry. You can refer to the recent post on the Net Bait infringement case for further reading and experiences. IMO, this is an area that you don't want to find out the hard way what is right and wrong. To costly. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 If you develop your own unique custom designs and do your research there is little chance of a problem, With respect, I will have to disagree with this point. Unless you know how to research patents and where to research patents, doing your own research is of little value. Google is not enough for sure. Also consider this, if in fact you decide, on your own or without expertise, that your design does not infringe and you get called out on it, you have to be ready, with SIGNIFICANT $$$$ to back it up.Patent defense starts around $175,000 in upfront costs and the costs sky rocket from there. Simple math tells me to if you are serious about a design coming to market, spend $10,000 for advice vs $175,000+ for a mistake. If anyone needs advice, there is a TU member I can look up from some years ago that has patented numerous products currently on the market. He had some great places/people to point me to. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) The complete sentence was "If you develop your own unique custom designs and do your research there is little chance of a problem, but of course there is always some risk in anything we do in life." I've been quoted out of context before, but quoting only part of a sentence is a bit much. LOL. Sorry Bob, I should have quoted the full sentence. I would disagree with the full sentence. Without expert help, you are just asking to be in it deep. Doing your own research and developing what you think is a unique design does not create a little chance of a problem at all. Read what happened to Lloyd at Excite baits in the Netbait post. Mitigating risk is what I prefer and just "going it alone" or gambling on patent infringement issues (if you are going to sell a product) is just ridiculous in my mind. I am all about taking chances but smart chances. Just my opinion though... Jim Edited February 11, 2011 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 I agree with both Bob and Jims points of view. If you put out a bait that is middle of the road, done a thousand times before, nothing progressive, then you are very unlikely to get any patent comebacks. But if you copy a feature of the latest fad bait, no matter how seemingly insignificant the feature may be, then you could find yourself with problems. That insignificant bump or ridge that identifies with that hot seller is there for a reason, to move water a certain way, achieve a unique movement or simply look cool. You copy it and sell it, you run the risk of litigation. Lots of people talk about a 10% difference get out. Well you can forget about that, utter nonsense. make the frog 10% thinner with the same design feature and see how far you get in court. I have never understood this copy a bait mentality. I can understand customer demands on established lure producers, but if you are starting out as a new company, surely originality will be your strongest selling point. If you want success, you have to come up with something different. It will be hard to sell, but no one should expect this business to be easy. With an original product, you have to get out there and convince people that the product works better than the rest. Sure, you can push out sticks and grubs and make a few dollars to cover the cost of your hobby, nothing wrong with that. True success in this business is not just your original lure design, it is your reputation, which will probably take years to establish, unless you know some very connected people who believe in your product. Design and development is the easy part of the whole process. The hard part is selling and promotion. If you truly come up with an original fish magnet, you then have to decide, big time or small time. Big time is mass production, tooling, packaging, advertising, promotion, patents, lawyers, courts, you have to protect your design. Small time is forget about the patent thing, as you will never be able to afford the protection fees. Cottage industry production, budget packaging, local sales, word of mouth promotion. If this is successful and a big company has not already stolen the idea and you have made some extra cash from the project, you might consider applying for a patent and approach a big company, to buy your idea. But my experience with patent solicitors is that once the design is public knowledge, you are on a loser. The patent has to happen before you start selling. The first stage of the patent application is not too expensive and gives you protection for a year to establish your product, before you have to shell out the big bucks to complete the patent. So if the bait was not as big a hit as you thought it was going to be, then you are not too out of pocket. If you are serious about your intentions and have a great idea, you really need to make an appointment and sit down with a professional. If you are lucky, the first consultation will be free. Taking advice off a forum like this, no matter how well intentioned we are, or how much we want to help you, is not going to get you where you need to be. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 There is a flip side to all of this-if you develop a unique bait and start selling it,another company cannot copy & get a design patent on that bait and stop you from selling it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) There is a flip side to all of this-if you develop a unique bait and start selling it,another company cannot copy & get a design patent on that bait and stop you from selling it . Ture, but they can take you to court and bleed you to death with attornies fees before you can prove you are right. Unfortunately, you can sue or be sued for anything. Whether you can win is another deal. I guess my final thought is that if you are serious about a patent, get professional advice and then be sure you have the serious amount of cash, in hand, it takes to defend that patent. A patent is no good unless you can defend it at the point of infringement. Jim Edited February 11, 2011 by ghostbaits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Ture, but they can take you to court and bleed you to death with attornies fees before you can prove you are right. Unfortunately, you can sue or be sued for anything. Whether you can win is another deal. I guess my final thought is that if you are serious about a patent, get professional advice and then be sure you have the serious amount of cash, in hand, it takes to defend that patent. A patent is no good unless you can defend it at the point of infringement. Jim You don't need a high $ patent lawyer to prove your original date of sale of your unique product. Case closed before it even goes to step 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 You don't need a high $ patent lawyer to prove your original date of sale of your unique product. Case closed before it even goes to step 2. My point was that if somebody infringes on your patent, you still need to hire an attorney, spend the money to take them to court, etc. To have a "case" you have to file it and go to court. All that is not free regardless if you know you have the goods on them, especially if it is a large company. A large company can file extensions, request paperwork and drag the proceedings out which all cost $$$. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 My point was that if somebody infringes on your patent, you still need to hire an attorney, spend the money to take them to court, etc. To have a "case" you have to file it and go to court. All that is not free regardless if you know you have the goods on them, especially if it is a large company. A large company can file extensions, request paperwork and drag the proceedings out which all cost $$$. Jim Jim I think you misunderstood me. Let's say you come out w / a new,unique soft-bait that is a hot producer and is in demand. You do not have a design patent on your bait. Now I come out ,copy the bait and try to get a patent on it and they file against you for infringement. That's not happening legally since you created and sold the bait commercially before i ever came into the picture. A manufacture must have the market demand and ability to produce 1,000's a week to cover the expenses of obtaining the patent and then defending it. Like you have stated,the small manufacturer doesn't have to financial resources to fight the big manufacturers. R.I. has the name Sweet Beaver trademarked. I think is rather foolish for people to use that name on their product since you are liable for a trademark infringement. I believe R.I. has filed a suit against B.P.S. and Strike King lures for infringement. I'm very interested to see how the Net bait design patent infringement turns out.. Someone is going to be "on the hook" for some astronomical legal fees if they fight this out in court and loose. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertuner Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Bob, I always like your posts. You seem like a realist. You said, Some will tell you to shell out for a CPA (edit shorter, I think you know what I mean) I did make the recommendation for the CPA. I really didn't explain fully. I really meant IF you were going to get one or the other , attorney or CPA, get a CPA first. I don't consider it a must, if you're small you do whatever it takes, right? If you are in a fortunate position to hire professional help, you know.... Edited February 12, 2011 by Supertuner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 What it boils down to sometimes is youse pays yer nickle and youse takes yer chances. GB's advice is not bad, but don't let not having 10K in your pocket to give away paralyze you either. Agreed!!!! I like going for it for sure. When I started hand pouring, only west coast guys did it. Sure some made fun of me back then. Not to many do anymore though! I get what you were saying Al. That is true. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggun Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 If you make a lure and want to patent it "HIRE AN PATENT ATTORNEY" simple as that. I have three in the procces now and should be pending this spring, but it will take 3yrs to get the full patent and then its only good for 3yrs and has to be renewd, quarterly updated and alot more blah blah blah. Get the attorney and grab your wallet. All of mine are military related so they are under a tarp in the shop and have been for almost a year. Its not a quick process, if you would like to talk to mine he has done work for remington,ruger and a few others you would notice but the last bill I got was for an 15min call $250.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 correct me if im wrong. But i thought a pattent was only legal in the contry it was issued. I have created a few designs but have no intention on wasting money on a pattent. For one china will just copy it no matter if you hyave a pattent or not. And 2 it wouldnt be worth the money going to court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 correct me if im wrong. But i thought a pattent was only legal in the contry it was issued. I have created a few designs but have no intention on wasting money on a pattent. For one china will just copy it no matter if you hyave a pattent or not. And 2 it wouldnt be worth the money going to court. I am inclined to agree with you. I know for a fact that large Chinese car manufacturers are using all pirate copies of industry standard CAD software. If large corporations can get away with such flagrant abuse of ownership rights of software, do you think that they would be in the least bit concerned by your little patent? I don't think so. Get your product out there and make what you can as soon as possible. If the lure is very good, you maybe have a year before they have it on the market. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted February 14, 2011 Report Share Posted February 14, 2011 "Get your product out there and make what you can as soon as possible. If the lure is very good, you maybe have a year before they have it on the market. Dave " DITTO Copyright the name ... get all the distribution you can and go far it ... you will have to stretch your pocket book as far as you can so that you can have the production capabilities ... advertisement and etc. Finance will be your gauge as to what you can do and it is still a "Throw of the Dice" JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitbull Baits Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Heres a good way to see if you are coping a bait with a patent on it. Get a Bass Pro and a Cabela's catalog then compare yours to one's close to it lol. No really check with someone who does this for a living to be safe. T.U. is good for tackle making info get into law info not so much to. Many people know to much here from hear say and not fact. Not saying some people here haven't checked before but who is really on the other side of the computer is anyones guess. Could be net Bait or R.I. setting you up for all we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 "Copyright the name ... get all the distribution you can and go far it ." With all due respect , you'll need to get a registered Trademark of the name to protect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeye Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 "Get your product out there and make what you can as soon as possible. If the lure is very good, you maybe have a year before they have it on the market. Dave " DITTO Copyright the name ... get all the distribution you can and go far it ... you will have to stretch your pocket book as far as you can so that you can have the production capabilities ... advertisement and etc. Finance will be your gauge as to what you can do and it is still a "Throw of the Dice" JSC Im not sure what its like in the USA. But here in Australia there is alot of product loyalty and if someone has clearly copied your design they will suport the origional. Customeres dont mind paying if they know what they are getting. Market your lures well. Market the fact they are "Custom desinged" for the fish in your area. Market that they are hand made and not made in china Treat your customers right, market your lures at a price where its not profitable for another company to come in over the top. Then you shouldnt really have an issue. Fishing lures are all fads. Idd rather spend my money developing new lures than protecting the ones i currently have. Dont bring them all out at once. That way if someone does copy your design you can release the new desgin Ie: Our first lure was so sucsessfull that now everyone is copying it. Grab our new lure that is sure to be the next big thing. Can also use it to hype up your new desgin before you release it People love controversy so use that to your advantage Idd be flatered if someone copied something i my design. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 "Copyright the name ... get all the distribution you can and go far it ." With all due respect , you'll need to get a registered Trademark of the name to protect it. I stand corrected .... I was doing this one with out a lot of extra talk ... JSC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
